Countdown to Bertie Ahern's expulsion from FF

MadsL

With the Mahon publishing today (3 hours time as I write) how long will it take before Martin makes good on his promise that:

“When the final report of the Mahon Tribunal is published we will act without fear or favour against anyone who is shown to have abused their position in Fianna Fáil or in elected office,” he said this evening. “Action will be swift and comprehensive.”

Will we get an immediate expulsion of Bertie? Six months, a year or never?

Any predictions?

galwayrush

Thankfully he didn't realise one of his dreams, to be President.
Regarding the question, nothing will happen.

DrumSteve

Link to the report here:

http://www.flood-tribunal.ie/images/sitecontent_921.pdf

liammur

Ahern will probably be expelled. But he will remain a 'legend' within the party. Similar situation to Haughey.
Right now he is seen as a liability.

Dannyboy83

“When the final report of the Mahon Tribunal is published we will act without fear or favour against anyone who is shown to have abused their position in Fianna Fáil or in elected office,” he said this evening. “Action will be swift and comprehensive.”

The final report of the Mahon tribunal has found that former taoiseach Bertie Ahern "failed to truthfully account for a total of IR£165,214.25 passing through accounts connected with him".

"Much of the explanation provided by former taoiseach Bertie Ahern as to the source of the substantial funds inquired into was deemed by the tribunal to be untrue," according to the report.

"Those findings of fact which are adverse to Mr Ahern and on occasion others clearly demonstrated that important aspects of Mr Ahern's evidence was rejected by the tribunal."

They haven't shown he abused his position... how convenient...

Get out of Jail Card for MM?

Kinski

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

They haven't shown he abused his position... how convenient...

Get out of Jail Card for MM?

Martin won't want or need a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. They'll expel Ahern.

bmaxi

Judging by all the back slapping that went on at the recent Ard Fheis. expulsion from FF, however long it takes, will just be tokenism.
If my suspicions are correct, the whole Mahon Tribunal will be a whitewash job, a judiciary beholden to politicians is unlikely to upset the apple cart no matter which circus is running the show. From the tidbits emerging it would appear that the worst that will be attributed to Ahern is, he was guilty of "creative accounting".

Tin Foil Hat

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

They haven't shown he abused his position... how convenient...

Get out of Jail Card for MM?

Hardly. It would have been much easier for MM if this report stated in balck and white that Ahern was a crook.

corkonion

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Hardly. It would have been much easier for MM if this report stated in balck and white that Ahern was a crook.

I agree, now MM cannot win, whatever he does now will be seen to be wrong, However I still believe that Bertie will be expelled.

Sierra Oscar

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

They haven't shown he abused his position... how convenient...

Get out of Jail Card for MM?

Hardly. It would have been much easier for MM if this report stated in balck and white that Ahern was a crook.

No doubt, but I think there will be a sufficent case put forward to expel Ahern.

Many thought that the report would let Bertie off lightly, i.e. claim his evidence had to be approached with caution but leave it at that.

Instead Mahon has pretty much dismissed all of Aherns evidence. The writing is on the wall for Ahern.

who the fug

Bertie is to Martin what CJ was to Bertie

Better keep Bertie in the tent pissing out

Laois_Man

Seriously, who the **** cares whether Ahern and/or Flynn are expelled from a Party they were yesterdays news in anyway!

Two things will annoy me about this;

1) That no criminal proceedings will be taken against anyone,

2) That expulsion of a person from a political party where that persons political career is already finished anyway will result in the current gob****es at the FF top table thinking they're some sort of hero's and will probably start calling themselves "The Peoples party" or some ****e like that because of it. They might even get a bump in the polls because of it!!

Sierra Oscar

Thomas Byrne has said he finds it hard to see Bertie remaining a member of the party. He has also stated that FF will be sending a report to the director of public prosecutions in regards the report.

who the fug

For Bertie to be charged there must be some political will to investigate and charge him, do you think Enda would want that.

Hope Mr. Martin does not use a Dail pre paid envelope when he sends it to the DPP

thecommietommy

liammur wrote: »

Ahern will probably be expelled. But he will remain a 'legend' within the party. Similar situation to Haughey.
Right now he is seen as a liability.

Indeed, I remember the Sindo and Evening Herald trying to manufacture " Haughey the lovable rogue " twist on his total corruption :mad:

MadsL

Laois_Man wrote: »

Seriously, who the **** cares whether Ahern and/or Flynn are expelled from a Party they were yesterdays news in anyway!

Two things will annoy me about this;

1) That no criminal proceedings will be taken against anyone,

2) That expulsion of a person from a political party where that persons political career is already finished anyway will result in the current gob****es at the FF top table thinking they're some sort of hero's and will probably start calling themselves "The Peoples party" or some ****e like that because of it. They might even get a bump in the polls because of it!!

I agree about your two points, but it will speak volumes if MM does not act against Ahern. Equally the publication of the findings could lead to someone now speaking up about the source of Berties 'digout'.

jmayo

MadsL wrote: »

I agree about your two points, but it will speak volumes if MM does not act against Ahern. Equally the publication of the findings could lead to someone now speaking up about the source of Berties 'digout'.

Sorry the only way anyone will speak up is if their balls are caught in a vice.
So it was with dunlop and grainne caruth.

Most of the ones involved have somehting to lose by speaking out, much like with the knowledge around before the bank guarantee.
We need someone to find religion big time or someone like flynn to put their foot in it big time.

Mr.Micro

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry the only way anyone will speak up is if their balls are caught in a vice.
So it was with dunlop and grainne caruth.

Most of the ones involved have somehting to lose by speaking out, much like with the knowledge around before the bank guarantee.
We need someone to find religion big time or someone like flynn to put their foot in it big time.

Ahern was at the recent Ard Fheis..... Martin will not throw him out. The report will be cited as not actually calling Ahern corrupt. Also Bertie probably knows a few things ?.... he is not one to quietly, hence his appearance at the FF Ard Fheis?

Dirk Gently

more interestingly is what will MM do about those FF ministers that mahon says sought to undermine the tribunal. How will he deal with them without dealing with himself too. Lab and FG also have questions to answer about their own councillors.

Mr.Micro

Dirk Gently wrote: »

more interestingly is what will MM do about those FF ministers that mahon says sought to undermine the tribunal. How will he deal with them without dealing with himself too. Lab and FG also have questions to answer about their own councillors.

A tough one, but I am sure the politicians will smooth everything over and continue as before. Imagine if the tribunal had looked at every County Council in Ireland. The Mahon report would only be the tip of the iceberg with regards to corruption IMO.

johngalway

I'd be surprised if MM does much of anything, he has the spine of a jellyfish.

Dirk Gently

all MM can do is offer up Bertie and lie low for a week or so until this all blows over. MM is unfortunately linked in with the next level of names who tried to undermine the tribunal. He can hardly sanction the likes of willie o dea without incriminating himself.

EchoO

I remember Micheal Martin being one of the pack of ff'ers sent out to defend Bertie's laughable evidence to tribunal. So I assume he is one of the ministers refered to in the report .... “(the tribunal) came under sustained and virulent attack from a number of senior government ministers who questioned, inter alia, the legality of its inquiries as well as the integrity of its members. There appears little doubt that the objective of these extraordinary and unprecedented attacks on the tribunal was to undermine the efficient conduct of the tribunal’s inquiries, erode its independence and collapse its inquiry into that individual."

If he is, then surely he and FF should be looking at his own position as head of the party.

Dirk Gently

EchoO wrote: »

If he is, then surely he and FF should be looking at his own position as head of the party.

yeah, if they were serious about their new reforming agenda then yes they would remove all those involved but this isn't about ending corruption or punishing those involved, it's about damage limitation. Expect Bertie to be offered up as a sacrificial lamb and nothing more.

Mr.Micro

johngalway wrote: »

I'd be surprised if MM does much of anything, he has the spine of a jellyfish.

I saw Martin on the news this evening and he appears already to be rowing back when asked about expelling Ahern from FF, muttering something about the wording of the report. Bertie the man who knows too much.

EchoO

Dirk Gently wrote: »

yeah, if they were serious about their new reforming agenda then yes they would remove all those involved but this isn't about ending corruption or punishing those involved, it's about damage limitation. Expect Bertie to be offered up as a sacrificial lamb and nothing more.

It's a pity the tribunal did go as far as naming the Ministers in question. If Martin or O'Dea had been actually named, their positions would simply be untenable.

walshb

I know it's clear that most of these politicians have brass necks, but I wonder how Cecelia and Georgina feel when they read such damning articles relating to their father?

Tin Foil Hat

walshb wrote: »

I know it's clear that most of these politicians have brass necks, but I wonder how Cecelia and Georgina feel when they read such damning articles relating to their father?

Probably the same as P. Flynn's daughter, I'd say?

raymon

Bertie should be allowed to stay in FF . Nobody represents the FF core values more

Mr.Micro

raymon wrote: »

Bertie should be allowed to stay in FF . Nobody represents the FF core values more

Indeed, the other political parties are probably hoping he will stay. He is FF, and if Martin really does want the party to be renewed, as he has talked about at length in the last year, he needs to start from now, with the likes of Ahern publicly dismissed from FF. Not likely, as he himself, was for 11 years a Minister and part of Ahern's Government.

later12

I think there's no doubt but that Ahern will be kicked out of the party.

That is, if he is still a member. I would presume so.

I'm not even sure how an individual can be kicked out. Anyone know what the process is? Any precedent?

Sierra Oscar

Just announced that Micheál Martin is putting forward a motion to expel Bertie Ahern from Fianna Fáil at a meeting of the National Executive next week.

firemansam4

Just watching Primetime...

I feel physically sick watching bertie give a speech I think its in Honduras, not sure but he Is gloating over his tenure of 11 successful years of unprecedented growth and how he was proud of what he has done to help turn Ireland into such a success story.

Sorry this makes me more sick than any findings coming out today as bad as what they were.....

Mr.Micro

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Just announced that Micheál Martin is putting forward a motion to expel Bertie Ahern from Fianna Fáil at a meeting of the National Executive next week.

It will be interesting to see if it happens, that is, Ahern getting kicked out of FF. If it does happen will it be for good? Ahern will never admit wrongdoing, or would even agree that it is appropriate for him to be kicked out of the FF party. Is it possible to admonish a man who fails to see his wrong doing? To my mind he is no more than a cheap grubby little man, an Arthur Daley type, with betting slips in his pockets, who only handles cash.

The country is now paying the price for the corruption of the politicians named, as little good comes of bad.

MadsL

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Just announced that Micheál Martin is putting forward a motion to expel Bertie Ahern from Fianna Fáil at a meeting of the National Executive next week.

Jesus, I would have given 25-1 on it not happening that quickly.

MadsL

later12 wrote: »

I think there's no doubt but that Ahern will be kicked out of the party.

That is, if he is still a member. I would presume so.

I'm not even sure how an individual can be kicked out. Anyone know what the process is? Any precedent?

Visons of Father Ted and kicking bishops up the arse...

liammur

MadsL wrote: »

Jesus, I would have given 25-1 on it not happening that quickly.

I would have backed it at as a certainty at 1/100.

RandomName2

At the end of the day Ahern seems to have been:
economically blinked
the most cunning of them all
self-opinionated
incapable of seeing flaws in himself
a tax evader (strictly speaking)
slightly delusional



But it seems, according to the report, that is was actually not corrupt. That is, that he did not take cash for favours.

Mr.Micro

RandomName2 wrote: »

At the end of the day Ahern seems to have been:
economically blinked
the most cunning of them all
self-opinionated
incapable of seeing flaws in himself
a tax evader (strictly speaking)
slightly delusional



But it seems, according to the report, that is was actually not corrupt. That is, that he did not take cash for favours.

I do not think that is what is meant. More that it could not be proven where the money came from and more importantly whom..... so one cannot conclude it was not for favours or equally for favours.

Dannyboy83

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Just announced that Micheál Martin is putting forward a motion to expel Bertie Ahern from Fianna Fáil at a meeting of the National Executive next week.

I thought MM would try to weasel out of it, but this is one time I am quite pleased to say I was wrong.

[Jackass]

Martin is dying to expell Bertie to try and boost his clean new FF image. FF is about as clean as a homeless mans hoop if you ask me, and will never be anything more than full of disgusting corrupt people looking to join a club in order to corruptly achieve their goals. That is what the FF club is.

DanWall

If Bertie gets a dishonourable discharge from the party they should stop his pension. That will hurt him

Dannyboy83

DanWall wrote: »

If Bertie gets a dishonourable discharge from the party they should stop his pension. That will hurt him

I would absolutely love this see this happen, but if they couldn't (wouldn't?) do it to Roddy Molloy, I don't see how they can do it to Bertie.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/disgraced-fas-chiefs-14m-hike-in-pension-1885303.html

Under the Superannuation and Pensions Act 1963, the minister can intervene in a case where a public servant retires early or is removed from his/her position. However, there is no provision in a case like Mr Molloy's where he resigned his post.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

seamus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

"Expelling" Bertie from Fianna Fail has about as much relevance to his pension as "expelling" Bertie from his golf club. It's irrelevant to any benefits or earnings from his time as a Government minister.

Mad how many people think that a political party have the power to change TDs (and former TDs) remuneration.

later12

RandomName2 wrote: »

But it seems, according to the report, that is was actually not corrupt. That is, that he did not take cash for favours.

That was not a finding of Mahon, which was not able to conclude that he was corrupt without an accurate or honest awareness of where €215,000 linked to Ahern originated. It is more correct to say that Mahon was silent on Ahern's corruption than to suggest it made some sort of positive determination about Ahern.

paul71

Did anyone hear Willie O'Dea speaking about questioning Aherns communion money, the sheer arogance is mind-booling, how did a group of people become so arrogant. For 30 years the party was rotten to the absolute core and as an electorate we tolerated it. In fact by electing people like O'Dea we continue tolerate it. I only ever gave a second preference to them once, that person being Noel Demsey who I happen to beleive has a vestage of honesty and public service vocation, but never again because to be a member of that party means that you have tolerated the obvious corruption within it.

Do I think Ahern will be expelled? Yes.

Do I think that will change the FF party? Not while people like O'Dea are still there.

Will people still vote for them? We are are talking about an electorate who still vote in Lowrys, Healy-Reas and O'Deas so yes they will get votes.

jmayo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Ahern was at the recent Ard Fheis..... Martin will not throw him out. The report will be cited as not actually calling Ahern corrupt. Also Bertie probably knows a few things ?.... he is not one to quietly, hence his appearance at the FF Ard Fheis?

These guys know where the bodies are buried and who buried them.
That was pretty aparent when bertie made a big show of welcoming bev flynn back into the fold even though members of her own party in her own constituency did not want it.

later12 wrote: »

That was not a finding of Mahon, which was not able to conclude that he was corrupt without an accurate or honest awareness of where €215,000 linked to Ahern originated. It is more correct to say that Mahon was silent on Ahern's corruption than to suggest it made some sort of positive determination about Ahern.

The tribunal did not exactly give him an all clear either now did it ?
Basically the tribunal labelled him a liar who could not adequately explain how and where he got his money.

To most of us we can conclude that if he had nothing to hide then he could adequately explain his finances and in most other countries he would have been turfed from power by his own party at the time of the tribunal.

irish_goat

Press release from Martin.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/8193/#.T2xztHAQDv4.facebook

I, together with the party’s officers with whom I have met and consulted, believe the conduct of Bertie Ahern as outlined in the evidence made public through the Tribunal and the findings of the Tribunal constitute conduct unbecoming a member of Fianna Fáil. Accordingly, I will propose a motion to expel him as a member of Fianna Fáil at the special meeting of National Executive. We are writing to Mr Ahern to inform him of this decision.

jmayo

irish_goat wrote: »

Press release from Martin.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/8193/#.T2xztHAQDv4.facebook

But yet the public evidence was there when he supported him as leader of the party and leader of the state ?

scholar007

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Probably the same as P. Flynn's daughter, I'd say?

What can I say about Beverly - she's a class act, a class act, I tell you. She will leave me in the shade if she gets a fair crack of the whip - Gotta run now - Got 3 houses to keep.....:D