Golden Circle... Have we forgotten..

patwicklow

Ten wealthy businessmen who had come together to buy shares in Anglo Irish Bank in 2008 in a transaction which is now at the centre of an investigation by the Office of Corporate Enforcement.
So we all know it will take for ever for the truth to come out on this if it ever will! Like a Anglo report revealed that the bank lent €451 million to the ten "Golden Circle" clients, a 50% increase on previous estimates of €300 million. Really is corrupt to the core and Can the person reading this SEE IT TOO?
NAMA is another story and will be revealed in time aswell!

The_Minister

We haven't forgotten, we're just waiting for more news to come out.

DB10

ah **** em all

patwicklow

The_Minister wrote: »

We haven't forgotten, we're just waiting for more news to come out.

Well wont come from RTE news thats for sure!

patwicklow

Peppercorn rent comes to mind..

Chuck Stone

Linky?

MrStuffins

Golden Circle eh? They sound like an absolute Golden Shower to me!

charlemont

The lot of them should be hanged.

patwicklow

MrStuffins wrote: »

Golden Circle eh? They sound like an absolute Golden Shower to me!

It will be same ole same ole passed off and laughed at no wonder country is down the swanny

patwicklow

charlemont wrote: »

The lot of them should be hanged.

Ten ropes! hope the tax payer dont pays for that aswell.

BarackPyjama

Nothing will ever happen. Like most top-level corporate or government corruption. These people are too powerful and the Irish people are too pathetic and weak.

In modern 'civil' society we've been conditioned to be armchair mouthpieces at best, utterly placid and helpless at worst. So violence against these people and a confrontational revolution is off the cards.

So it doesn't matter whether we've forgotten or not. If we decide to remind the government, they may throw a few scapegoats into the fire to placate us but that will be about it.

Super-Rush

Omg i've never heard of this "Golden Circle".

Why hasn't there been more threads about this sort of stuff?

Pdfile

charlemont wrote: »

The lot of them should be hanged.

for have more money then the rest of us ?

yeah...

no.

policarp

El Pistolero wrote: »

Omg i've never heard of this "Golden Circle".

You cannot be serious. . .

Dudess

policarp wrote: »

El Pistolero wrote: »

Omg i've never heard of this "Golden Circle".

You cannot be serious. . .

He's not.

Oh yay, another thread with posts by Irish people berating "us" (but not them) for being complacent, by people sitting on their arses at their computers - huzzah!

upandcumming

patwicklow wrote: »

NAMA is another story and will be revealed in time aswell!

Please, enlighten us to the corruption of NAMA!

foxyboxer

When you say that ten wealthy business men came together to buy Anglo Irish shares, you need to mention that the borrowed money from Anglo to buy the shares.

Un-believable.

irish people doing nothing but whingeing on the internet about irish people doing nothing but whingeing on the internet

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS8OnblmrDVp3i_8nXmCQdU9Vt1EbXVl92LPb3S1-w3ItxrZmGcrOpgVgN3fA

Run_to_da_hills

patwicklow wrote: »

Ten wealthy businessmen who had come together to buy shares in Anglo Irish Bank in 2008 in a transaction which is now at the centre of an investigation by the Office of Corporate Enforcement.
So we all know it will take for ever for the truth to come out on this if it ever will! Like a Anglo report revealed that the bank lent €451 million to the ten "Golden Circle" clients, a 50% increase on previous estimates of €300 million. Really is corrupt to the core and Can the person reading this SEE IT TOO?
NAMA is another story and will be revealed in time aswell!

Meanwhile a guy that smuggles some garlic into the country gets six years. :rolleyes:

benway

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Nothing will ever happen. Like most top-level corporate or government corruption. These people are too powerful and the Irish people are too pathetic and weak.

In modern 'civil' society we've been conditioned to be armchair mouthpieces at best, utterly placid and helpless at worst. So violence against these people and a confrontational revolution is off the cards.

So it doesn't matter whether we've forgotten or not. If we decide to remind the government, they may throw a few scapegoats into the fire to placate us but that will be about it.

So pathetic and weak that when there was the first sign of any action on white collar crime, a chorus of bleating apologists rose up, aghast at the injustice of it all.

Celly Smunt

I haven't forgotten,I just don't care anymore.

seamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Meanwhile a guy that smuggles some garlic into the country gets six years. :rolleyes:

€1.6m worth of revenue fraud.

What I love is this notion that everyone wants white-collar crooks to be chased and jailed...except when they're people like us :rolleyes:

If that was a friend of Bertie Ahern's, or had been a welfare fraudster who had held back €1.6m from Revenue, most people would be saying that 6 years was getting off too easy.

But when he's a middle-class, "hard working businessman", suddenly he should be given a slap on the wrists and we'll all have a chuckle and a wink and a nod about how he got one over on the gubberment.

It's the Irish enigma. We complain about inconsistency in our courts on one hand, but then practically demand it on the other.

Nonoperational

patwicklow wrote: »

It will be same ole same ole passed off and laughed at no wonder country is down the swanny

What are you doing about it? What can be done? Sit in a tent for a few months, go around marching and burning things? What has that achieved...

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Meanwhile a guy that smuggles some garlic into the country gets six years. :rolleyes:

I wish people would drop the garlic from this. What does it matter what the product was? He lied on the customs declarations to avoid paying tax on the product he was selling. 6 years is harsh but this is exactly the type of thing people are bitching about people getting away with. If he made the same amount of money doing the same with cigarettes there'd be zero sympathy for him.

upandcumming

seamus wrote: »

€1.6m worth of revenue fraud.

What I love is this notion that everyone wants white-collar crooks to be chased and jailed...except when they're people like us :rolleyes:

If that was a friend of Bertie Ahern's, or had been a welfare fraudster who had held back €1.6m from Revenue, most people would be saying that 6 years was getting off too easy.

But when he's a middle-class, "hard working businessman", suddenly he should be given a slap on the wrists and we'll all have a chuckle and a wink and a nod about how he got one over on the gubberment.

It's the Irish enigma. We complain about inconsistency in our courts on one hand, but then practically demand it on the other.

I agree with you. But take fuel laundering. A man was caught recently in the north-east, costing the revenue approximately €6million a year. And they don't know how long he has been doing it. From general looking and poking around, not one has got a prison sentence, and the fine is a few hundred thousand. Where is the logic in that? In the case of the garlic man, he was a good employer, was paying back the money owed and was of good standing in the community. There is a difference.

K-9

seamus wrote: »

€1.6m worth of revenue fraud.

What I love is this notion that everyone wants white-collar crooks to be chased and jailed...except when they're people like us :rolleyes:

If that was a friend of Bertie Ahern's, or had been a welfare fraudster who had held back €1.6m from Revenue, most people would be saying that 6 years was getting off too easy.

But when he's a middle-class, "hard working businessman", suddenly he should be given a slap on the wrists and we'll all have a chuckle and a wink and a nod about how he got one over on the gubberment.

It's the Irish enigma. We complain about inconsistency in our courts on one hand, but then practically demand it on the other.

Welfare fraud seems to be perfectly fine, sticking it to the man, the poor "working classes", touts and other such nonsense.

upandcumming wrote: »

I agree with you. But take fuel laundering. A man was caught recently in the north-east, costing the revenue approximately €6million a year. And they don't know how long he has been doing it. From general looking and poking around, not one has got a prison sentence, and the fine is a few hundred thousand. Where is the logic in that? In the case of the garlic man, he was a good employer, was paying back the money owed and was of good standing in the community. There is a difference.

The attitude seems to be the organised rackets will be back at it next week again anyway.

ejmaztec

The Golden Circle is now known as the Pus-filled Pimply Ring.

seamus

upandcumming wrote: »

I agree with you. But take fuel laundering. A man was caught recently in the north-east, costing the revenue approximately €6million a year. And they don't know how long he has been doing it.

Do you have a link?

K-9 wrote: »

Welfare fraud seems to be perfectly fine, sticking it to the man, the poor "working classes", touts and other such nonsense.

Sorry, you're right. If it was welfare fraud by a traveller or Nigerian, people would be calling for a the guillotine.

upandcumming

seamus wrote: »

Do you have a link?

Yes.

seamus

upandcumming wrote: »

Yes.

Well in that case as far as I can tell no trial has yet taken place, so he hasn't been fined or otherwise penalised.

There's also a difference in potential and actual. A plant may have the "potential" to launder €6m per year, but you have to prove that. After all, my car has the "potential" to drive above the speed limit, but unless I'm caught doing it, potential is irrelevant.

The plant itself may be illegal, but the actual amount of laundered diesel is important.

cloptrop

I think they should have came up with a name that didn't incite hatred.For example if the called themselves "the investors" everyone would think they were cool and sticking it to the man ocean's 11 style. Calling themselves "the golden circle" however makes people instantly dislike them .

upandcumming

seamus wrote: »

Well in that case as far as I can tell no trial has yet taken place, so he hasn't been fined or otherwise penalised.

There's also a difference in potential and actual. A plant may have the "potential" to launder €6m per year, but you have to prove that. After all, my car has the "potential" to drive above the speed limit, but unless I'm caught doing it, potential is irrelevant.

The plant itself may be illegal, but the actual amount of laundered diesel is important.

You're dead right. But say he has been doing that for two years. Two months per year. Four months. I think that is a fairly conservative estimate for arguments sake. That is €3million. Not only that, but the damage to cars using the fuel could be very serious. While I don't agree with what the garlic man did, six years is extremely harsh.

foxyboxer

seamus wrote: »

€1.6m worth of revenue fraud.

What I love is this notion that everyone wants white-collar crooks to be chased and jailed...except when they're people like us :rolleyes:

If that was a friend of Bertie Ahern's, or had been a welfare fraudster who had held back €1.6m from Revenue, most people would be saying that 6 years was getting off too easy.

But when he's a middle-class, "hard working businessman", suddenly he should be given a slap on the wrists and we'll all have a chuckle and a wink and a nod about how he got one over on the gubberment.

It's the Irish enigma. We complain about inconsistency in our courts on one hand, but then practically demand it on the other.

Agreed.

I loved hearing about how people are claiming that the sentence is too harsh and that the tax is being paid back by him as we speak.

Eh...if he didn't attempt a swindle and paid the tax in the first place he wouldn't be going to prison.

cloptrop

foxyboxer wrote: »

Agreed.

I loved hearing about how people are claiming that the sentence is too harsh and that the tax is being paid back by him as we speak.

Eh...if he didn't attempt a swindle and paid the tax in the first place he wouldn't be going to prison.

He is also putting honest hard working Irish garlic farmers and garlic importers out of work by undercutting them and making a tidy profit while he employs people. He deserves a bit of prison time.

token101

Nothings going to happen. It's been 4 years now. How long does one investigation take? And even if they do get jail, what will it be? 6 months like Ray Burke? Our justice system doesn't exist, and it certainly doesn't pertain to anyone in any position of authority. The Enron guys destroyed countless lives, but at least the main guy Jeffrey Skilling got 27 years for insider trading. Skilling lied about the extent of the problems in Enron, then promptly sold all of his stock. What's the difference between what he did and what those bankers did to this state? Sean Fitzpatrick hasn't spent a day in prison and likely never will. Same for David Drumm, who was allowed to leave the country. Fingleton wasn't even forced to return a watch he got from the bank's money FFS!

We'll have another banking tribunal which will cost the taxpayer more, it'll make meaningless and pointless 'findings' and these guys will get to go back their life of luxury as income taxes go up and up.

K-9

cloptrop wrote: »

I think they should have came up with a name that didn't incite hatred.For example if the called themselves "the investors" everyone would think they were cool and sticking it to the man ocean's 11 style. Calling themselves "the golden circle" however makes people instantly dislike them .

Golden Circle or investors makes them sound smart or something, when what they actually borrowed the money for was spectacularly dumb.

conor1979

K-9 wrote: »

Golden Circle or investors makes them sound smart or something, when what they actually borrowed the money for was spectacularly dumb.

They were approached by Anglo to buy the shares with non-recourse loans (all to keep anglo's share price from dropping like a lead balloon).
Doesn't seem that dumb to me on their part, seems pretty smart.

Take out a loan against shares and the collateral is the shares themselves. If they plummet you hand back the worthless shares. And we all know what happened next!

Genius! I would have done the exact same thing.

robbiezero

conor1979 wrote: »

They were approached by Anglo to buy the shares with non-recourse loans (all to keep anglo's share price from dropping like a lead balloon).
Doesn't seem that dumb to me on their part, seems pretty smart.

Take out a loan against shares and the collateral is the shares themselves. If they plummet you hand back the worthless shares. And we all know what happened next!

Genius! I would have done the exact same thing.

Exactly. far from dumb i would have thought. Anglo needed to offload some of Sean Quinns massive holding in the bank.
I'm not sure that for all the hatred and bile being spouted at the golden circle and cries for their prosecution, that they have done a whole lot wrong.
Anglo on the other hand is on dodgy ground.

benway

robbiezero wrote: »

Exactly. far from dumb i would have thought. Anglo needed to offload some of Sean Quinns massive holding in the bank.
I'm not sure that for all the hatred and bile being spouted at the golden circle and cries for their prosecution, that they have done a whole lot wrong.
Anglo on the other hand is on dodgy ground.

conor1979 wrote: »

Genius! I would have done the exact same thing.

What, artificially inflating a company's share price? Helping them lie to the world, keeping up the pretense that everything is fine? Basically, constructing a house of cards that will inevitably crash?

Real bright, that. I'd have done the same myself. Yerrah, fair play to them.

robbiezero

benway wrote: »

What, artificially inflating a company's share price? Helping them lie to the world, keeping up the pretense that everything is fine? Basically, constructing a house of cards that will inevitably crash?

Real bright, that. I'd have done the same myself. Yerrah, fair play to them.

I certainly would. If the banks share price had climbed, they would have cleaned up. If it fell, they couldnt lose.

benway

robbiezero wrote: »

I certainly would. If the banks share price had climbed, they would have cleaned up. If it fell, they couldnt lose.

Unless playing a direct role in bankrupting the country counts as losing. If the share prices had fallen to a more realistic price earlier, maybe alarm bells would have sounded.

So blind greed is good, then? A stroke of pure genius from the gombeens?

This fcking country ....

robbiezero

benway wrote: »

Unless playing a direct role in bankrupting the country counts as losing. If the share prices had fallen to a more realistic price earlier, maybe alarm bells would have sounded.

So blind greed is good, then? A stroke of pure genius from the gombeens?

This fcking country ....

How at that point had they any clue what was going happen in the future.
The bank believed its share price was collapsing due to the amount of them held by Sean Quinn as CFC's, they believed if they managed to offload a significant portion of them, it would stabilize the bank, they picked out ten of their closest clients to help them out, many of whom were multi-millionaires thanks to the support of Anglo in their development projects.

benway

robbiezero wrote: »

they picked out ten of their closest clients to help them out

Seems a lot like insider trading to me. There are laws against that kind of thing, for good reason. As we have seen.

And I'm in no doubt but that our noble gombeen men knew very well that what they were doing was at the very best unethical, quite possibly illegal, and detrimental to the general public. A conspiracy against the wider population, I'd call it, even if it hadn't led the country into penury.

Great lads altogether.

xflyer

I'll be in Mountjoy serving time for not paying my household charge along with half the country long before any of that shower of brass necked criminals will ever get their collar felt.

robbiezero

benway wrote: »

Seems a lot like insider trading to me. There are laws against that kind of thing, for good reason. As we have seen.

And I'm in no doubt but that our noble gombeen men knew very well that what they were doing was at the very best unethical, quite possibly illegal, and detrimental to the general public. A conspiracy against the wider population, I'd call it, even if it hadn't led the country into penury.

Great lads altogether.

I can't see how they would have seen it as detrimental to the country at the time. If what they intended had worked out, it would have been the opposite surely.
I don't know much about the legalities of it to be honest, maybe it was illegal on behalf of the 10, whatever about Anglo, we will see, but i'm not sure its quite the evil act it is being made out to be.

evolving_doors

And the funny thing is that NAMA will end up selling the property developments back to these guys (who are supposed to be broke!)..


Sunday Indo. March 18 2012
"NAMA chairman Frank Daly has strongly indicated that the agency wants permission from the Government to sell assets back to developers who have already defaulted on the repayment of their loans.

"This may not be a very popular thing to say, but for example, the restriction in the [Nama] Act which bars us from selling assets back to a defaulting debtor; that's a restriction that doesn't apply to any other body that's in the same business or in the same space that we are.."

Full link Here

So basically..
you're loan is 1 million,
throw it into nama,
get a job with nama,
advise them to sell you back the development for 500,000


Can we get Jim Carey to star in this hilarious comedy

Maybe call it "We are where we are"

benway

xflyer wrote:

I'll be in Mountjoy serving time for not paying my household charge along with half the country long before any of that shower of brass necked criminals will ever get their collar felt.

I don't know. It won't be an easy case to prosecute, which might explain the delay, and I'd rather that Corporate Enforcement and/or the DPP took their time and nailed the cnuts. Lest we forget, it took five years to bring our poor persecuted tax evading fruit and veg man to trial, for what looks like a much simpler fraud.

I will give up hope in this country altogether if there isn't some movement on it in the next year, though.

And if I hear too much more of this:

robbiezero wrote:

but i'm not sure its quite the evil act it is being made out to be.

Get this in to you head, sunshine - it's this kind of sharp practice, cute hoorism and gombeenism that has fcking hobbled this country. There is no room for it anywhere, and those responsible should be punished harshly.

It's detrimental to the country because it gives a false impression of the status of a particular commercial entity, it distorts the market, and it bestows undue favouritism on a particular caste of politically connected cute hoor fckin gombeen men, who all deserve to be r@ped by a pack of wild dogs.

Biggins

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Nothing will ever happen. Like most top-level corporate or government corruption. These people are too powerful and the Irish people are too pathetic and weak.

In modern 'civil' society we've been conditioned to be armchair mouthpieces at best, utterly placid and helpless at worst. So violence against these people and a confrontational revolution is off the cards.

So it doesn't matter whether we've forgotten or not. If we decide to remind the government, they may throw a few scapegoats into the fire to placate us but that will be about it.

^^^
That and the fact I suspect that FG and Labour characters are also involved either directly or indirectly as silent partners and/or profit sharing - or connected too closely to those buried deep in the crap also.
The longer anything is delayed, also a statue of limitations applies, thus even yet again less chance of anyone been taken to task over certain matters, as well as further time to re-write evidence and/or make it further disappear!

Short version: we will never know the truth. There is too many political heads in Dublin that have too much still, to lose.

policarp

Biggins wrote: »

^^^
That and the fact I suspect that FG and Labour characters are also involved either directly or indirectly as silent partners and/or profit sharing - or connected too closely to those buried deep in the crap also.
The longer anything is delayed, also a statue of limitations applies, thus even yet again less chance of anyone been taken to task over certain matters, as well as further time to re-write evidence and/or make it further disappear!

Short version: we will never know the truth. There is too many political heads in Dublin that have too much still, to lose.

Just like the Mahon tribunal. . .

Run_to_da_hills

gpf101 wrote: »

I wish people would drop the garlic from this..

If it was cannabis he was importing he would probably have got a lesser sentence. :rolleyes:

charlemont

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If it was cannabis he was importing he would probably have got a lesser sentence. :rolleyes:

Replace Cannabis with Heroin and then that would be correct..

conor1979

benway wrote: »

Seems a lot like insider trading to me. There are laws against that kind of thing, for good reason. As we have seen.

And I'm in no doubt but that our noble gombeen men knew very well that what they were doing was at the very best unethical, quite possibly illegal, and detrimental to the general public. A conspiracy against the wider population, I'd call it, even if it hadn't led the country into penury.

Great lads altogether.

I think the conspiracy comment is hilarious :pac: you should be on stage!

benway wrote: »

Get this in to you head, sunshine - it's this kind of sharp practice, cute hoorism and gombeenism that has fcking hobbled this country. There is no room for it anywhere, and those responsible should be punished harshly.

.

That cute hoorism and gombeenism is how half the country worked and to some degree still does. And not just at the top of the banking system.
Everybody knows someone who can do them a deal on something, get them something for half the price or free.
Nobody ever complained about it before but they all come out from under the rocks now.

If you want to point the finger of blame then what about blaming the financial regulator who wasnt watching the banks, or the government who sat back and watched the money fill the coffers not paying any attention to what was happening around them. They didnt listen when some of the top economists in the world said we were growing too fast. They didnt listen when are own economists said the same thing. They didnt even listen when the head of the NTMA took money out of Anglo as they knew it was a head case.

If Anglo had been let go to the wall we would have saved 30 odd billion and nobody would care about this "sharpe practice"