Irish Times - Irish Third Level sector bordering on a ponzi scheme

tiktock7aclock

Excuse the title, but the content of the article reflects the consensus among interests groups representing Irish Universities. It's no surprise that these Institutions have slipped down so far that no Irish University makes the top 100 in The Times Higher Education Survey. Paying people big money for tiny hours work per week I would classify as consumer Fraud.

These Institutions are potentially committing consumer fraud, yet most of this has gone unchecked until now. Well now it's out in the open, I feel a constructive improvement can begin. FWIW, I found third level standards here to be rather poor in comparison to the UK, so these results do not surprise me in the least.

What do you think about this article? Is this just exaggerated hyperbole, or does the analysis of the issues cut to the lack of integrity within the third level system in Ireland? These Institutions must be held account to the taxpayers of this country who funds their interests. There is a deep lack of integrity here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0320/1224313568212.html?via=mr

sarumite

tiktock7aclock wrote: »

Excuse the title, but the content of the article reflects the consensus among interests groups representing Irish Universities. It's no surprise that these Institutions have slipped down so far that no Irish University makes the top 100 in The Times Higher Education Survey. Paying people big money for tiny hours work per week I would classify as consumer Fraud.

These Institutions are potentially committing consumer fraud, yet most of this has gone unchecked until now. Well now it's out in the open, I feel a constructive improvement can begin. FWIW, I found third level standards here to be rather poor in comparison to the UK, so these results do not surprise me in the least.

What do you think about this article? Is this just exaggerated hyperbole, or does the analysis of the issues cut to the lack of integrity within the third level system in Ireland? These Institutions must be held account to the taxpayers of this country who funds their interests. There is a deep lack of integrity here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0320/1224313568212.html?via=mr

While all Ponzi schemes are fraud, not all fraud is a Ponzi scheme.

20Cent

What is he saying that isn't already common knowledge?

Limiting academic freedom would be of concern though.

p1akuw47h5r3it

I would agree with lengthening the term. In my college we have 12 weeks in term one and 12 in term two. I would love if this was increased by 3 weeks each including a study week (we don't get one, which makes the 12 weeks exhausting).

nyarlothothep

His article is typical of the managerial culture which attempts to strangle the process of learning by trying to quantify it with the imposition of a results culture whilst forcing the factory line manager mentality of "if I can't see you working, the you're not working". Not saying there needs to be reform, and certain courses to be cut but this would is just yet more office manager religious speak, though ironically from an academic.

later12

Is the Irish Times publishing blogs now?

I don't really see what he's speculating that couldn't be speculated about every other academic institution in Europe. If anything, the only institution whose merit I would call into question after reading that article is the National College of Ireland, the environment in which the author seems to have developed his perceptions of Irish academia.

One line that particularly annoyed me:

Yet if you strip away the layers, you find that a good percentage of university lecturers are actually completing their own research for a PhD during work hours.

It still qualifies as research, but the notion that academics are focused on a couple of key topics that will promote Ireland Inc, is not even close to reality.

1. Most University lecturers that I have ever encountered are already PhDs. I imagine this would be a common experience.
2. A researcher doing work for his or her PhD is undertaking work which is already deemed to enjoy academic merit by his or her department, therefore it is, one would have thought, of benefit to the faculty. The fact that the researcher is benefitting from that simultaneously does not detract from the benefit enjoyed by the department/ faculty/ school/ university in question.
3. It is not the role of academics to work as PR and marketing staff for Ireland inc. Having said that, Irish universities and their graduates may enjoy an enhanced reputation on foot of increased research output and improved university rankings.

goose2005

The university calendar is a product of the Middle Ages; there's no reason for it than "we've always done it this way".

nyarlothothep wrote:

His article is typical of the managerial culture which attempts to strangle the process of learning by trying to quantify it with the imposition of a results culture whilst forcing the factory line manager mentality of "if I can't see you working, the you're not working". Not saying there needs to be reform, and certain courses to be cut but this would is just yet more office manager religious speak, though ironically from an academic.

But this imagines the production of learning and knowledge to be independent of hours worked, which is nonsense. Even poets have to put in spadework

nyarlothothep

goose2005 wrote: »

The university calendar is a product of the Middle Ages; there's no reason for it than "we've always done it this way".


But this imagines the production of learning and knowledge to be independent of hours worked, which is nonsense. Even poets have to put in spadework

Eh no, willful mis-interpretation is nonsense.

Slydice

look for a ponzi scheme, you need a lot of people coming to the scheme to keep subsidising the people leaving the scheme... like a pyramid scheme.

for education, that's not gonna happen.

People (you'd like to think) will always want to be educated. They may fluctuate in numbers (in good times and bad) but I think there'll always be a fairly good demand for education.

(</drunkish>)

tiktock7aclock

nyarlothothep wrote: »

His article is typical of the managerial culture which attempts to strangle the process of learning by trying to quantify it with the imposition of a results culture whilst forcing the factory line manager mentality of "if I can't see you working, the you're not working". Not saying there needs to be reform, and certain courses to be cut but this would is just yet more office manager religious speak, though ironically from an academic.

Well, if they wish to continue pushing education as a commodity to the masses as the expansion of higher education has provided over the last 30 years, they need to start acting like money isn't and infinite resource. If research is bad, it should not be funded.

later12

tiktock7aclock wrote: »

Don't get me started on the thought police in academia. I once failed an assignment for speaking my mind, that is a form of censorship. Worked well in Communist Russia comrads. Law people don't like arguments sometimes.

So your solution is a Government sponsored body to censure and/or censor academic output, as per this quote below?

I hope an independent body is setup to investigate most of the "research" out there, and if it isn't up to scratch, file criminal charges against those involved

The fact is that if research isn't up to standard, it doesn't get published in any academic journals, and it doesn't add to a university's research output score or contribute positively to ranking. This in turn has negative repercussions for an academic's career.

So Universities and academics have a selfish interest in seeing their institution's and their departments' rankings increase. Great. That's a far, far greater level of accountability than one is likely to observe elsewhere in the public sector.

tiktock7aclock

later12 wrote: »

So your solution is a Government sponsored body to censure and/or censor academic output, as per this quote below?


The fact is that if research isn't up to standard, it doesn't get published in any academic journals, and it doesn't add to a university's research output score or contribute positively to ranking. This in turn has negative repercussions for an academic's career.

So Universities and academics have a selfish interest in seeing their institution's and their departments' rankings increase. Great. That's a far, far greater level of accountability than one is likely to observe elsewhere in the public sector.

An independent arbitrator is desperately needed. Just because something is published in a journal, does not mean it's widely available. I believe this is intentional to a degree, if the results were truly important, they would be shouting from the rooftops, albeit with some reservations abour their models.

When you are dealing with other peoples money, it's only right to investigate for research misconduct and stupitidy. Some of the junk that passes for research would make a grown man cry. Trivial stuff should only be funeded provided it's coming out of your own pocket. The grants system needs a massive overhaul, if most research isn't being consumed eventually for a wider audience, what is the point exactly?

later12

tiktock7aclock wrote: »

An independent arbitrator is desperately needed. Just because something is published in a journal, does not mean it's widely available.

Widely available is irrelevant. The average man at the No. 16 bus-stop doesn't care much for a UCD academic's contribution on spectroscopy to the Journal of Nanoscience.

However, those who assess university rankings do.

And industry cares about university rankings.

And the man at the No. 16 bus cares - or should care - about what industry thinks.

southsiderosie

I thought this was a rather odd article. About halfway through it, I realized that the author was operating with some underlying assumptions and too stuck in management groupthink land to assess university practices in a way that makes sense for universities, not large firms. A few thoughts:

Not all research is meant to push "Ireland Inc.". Given employer complaints about writing skills and critical thinking, perhaps there should be more focus on a traditional liberal arts, reading and writing-intensive university education rather than increasingly specialized fields like 'media communications' and 'organizational cultural management' and the like.

Very few academics will ever make major breakthroughs in their field. Very few corporate lawyers will make partner. That's life.

It is a mark of prestige to not teach classes because the primary function of most universities - and the standard by which they are judged both nationally and internationally - is to produce research.

The management problem isn't that there are too many former academics as managers. The problem is that there are too many (very expensive) managers and administrators in general - especially given that 90% of registration, aid processing, etc can be done online.

In my experience, there are no classes before 10am on Monday and none of Friday because the students will not show up - this is definitely not a faculty issue (especially if faculty have school-age children, and are themselves out the door by 7am every day!).

I am not saying there are not problems in the Irish university system - or higher ed in general - but this article doesn't address too many of them.

tiktock7aclock

later12 wrote: »

Widely available is irrelevant. The average man at the No. 16 bus-stop doesn't care much for a UCD academic's contribution on spectroscopy to the Journal of Nanoscience.

However, those who assess university rankings do.

And industry cares about university rankings.

And the man at the No. 16 bus cares - or should care - about what industry thinks.

This is a form of elitism. Just becase paddy joe down the street would not understand the material, does not mean Mary up the street won't read it to verify it's integrity. Everything else that isn't patented or held private is open to public scrutiny at will, why not Academic Research? I do understand your point, most people would not read it, but it does add a large degree of accountability. Accountability they don't want.

southsiderosie

tiktock7aclock wrote: »

This is a form of elitism. Just becase paddy joe down the street would not understand the material, does not mean Mary up the street won't read it to verify it's integrity. Everything else that isn't patented or held private is open to public scrutiny at will, why not Academic Research? I do understand your point, most people would not read it, but it does add a large degree of accountability.

Academic research is publicly available: go to Google Scholar or a local library to see for yourself.

To be honest, your posts seem to suggest that you are just fishing for something to get worked up about.

later12

tiktock7aclock wrote: »

This is a form of elitism. Just becase paddy joe down the street would not understand the material, does not mean Mary up the street won't read it to verify it's integrity. Everything else that isn't patented is open to public scrutiny at will, why not Academic Research? I do understand your point, most people would not read it, but it does add a large degree of accountability.

The point is that research output is determined by the amount of papers published per academic staff in a selected pool of academic journals whose selection of such work would reflect its academic merit. This measurement is enhanced by assessing both citations of researchers and research income. No private company is going to pay money for meaningless rubbish. So there is a strong element of accountability there.

In fact, I cannot think of any other group in the public sector (apart from the actual government) who are dependent upon this sort of private sector led evaluation of their performance on an ongoing basis.

Denerick

I think academics need more freedom, not less. I speak as someone who works in an excessively management heavy field, with lots of decree's from on high about best practice, with a pyschotic aversion to individualism (the prevailing belief that teams are essentially more productive than individuals is a nonsense - in many areas throwing more people into a mix drains from individual creativity and ensures the emergence of a bog standard mediocrity that fits a collective consensus rather than objective excellence).

The generic business courses are the curse of our age. They instill mediocrity and dampen individual creativity.

Education must be attained by the individual. All the educational process can ultimately do - at third level or otherwise - is equip the individual with a curious mind and an ability to think critically. Everything else is fluff.

Most graduates rely on being spoon fed 'how to think' and are utterly unprepared for the world of work. Their courses are at best, useless, and at worst, counter productive. They are preparing a nation of middle managers when what we need are inventors, creatives, and dynamic people capable of ingeniousness. Middle managers are necessary to an extent but I'd wager that most of them wasted their time in college - they would be as effective if they read books and newspapers and worked a two year apprenticeship with a firm.

We need a complete re-think of our higher educational system. We need a rebirth of the humanities, a renaissance of critical thinking, and the demise of the rational behaviourism that so characterises the modern third level system.

steddyeddy

tiktock7aclock wrote: »

Excuse the title, but the content of the article reflects the consensus among interests groups representing Irish Universities. It's no surprise that these Institutions have slipped down so far that no Irish University makes the top 100 in The Times Higher Education Survey. Paying people big money for tiny hours work per week I would classify as consumer Fraud.

These Institutions are potentially committing consumer fraud, yet most of this has gone unchecked until now. Well now it's out in the open, I feel a constructive improvement can begin. FWIW, I found third level standards here to be rather poor in comparison to the UK, so these results do not surprise me in the least.

What do you think about this article? Is this just exaggerated hyperbole, or does the analysis of the issues cut to the lack of integrity within the third level system in Ireland? These Institutions must be held account to the taxpayers of this country who funds their interests. There is a deep lack of integrity here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0320/1224313568212.html?via=mr

I dont think its fraud. A lecturer of mine from China said he was dissapointed with the lack of testicular fortitude shown by the Irish universities. He was speaking in terms of deals the universities had with computer suppliers, lab suppliers and the fees charged for access to journals. He said that much larger universities than ucd and trinity pay a lot less for access to said suppliers.

tiktock7aclock

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont think its fraud. A lecturer of mine from China said he was dissapointed with the lack of testicular fortitude shown by the Irish universities. He was speaking in terms of deals the universities had with computer suppliers, lab suppliers and the fees charged for access to journals. He said that much larger universities than ucd and trinity pay a lot less for access to said suppliers.

Well, calling it fraud/scheme is an obvious blatent exageration on my behalf. These Institutions operate fully within the parameters of the law, unlike some private entities, it's just the management side of things that is screwed up.

avalon68

later12 wrote: »

The fact is that if research isn't up to standard, it doesn't get published in any academic journals, and it doesn't add to a university's research output score or contribute positively to ranking. This in turn has negative repercussions for an academic's career.

What negative repercussions? I have never seen an academic lose their job/have a paycut over lack of publications/lack of attaining research funding/lack of progressing graduate students through the system/lack of bothering to update lectures/ lack of staying up to date with current literature and techniques/ lack of presentations at national and international conferences.....I'm curious as to what these negative repercussions might be.

Kinski

southsiderosie wrote: »

Academic research is publicly available: go to Google Scholar or a local library to see for yourself.

Tbf, a lot of it is published in journals that can only be accessed by subscribing to databases like JSTOR, or by obtaining copies of the journals themselves (not something you can pick up in your local library). The taxpayer is often helping to fund research that she cannot access freely.

later12

avalon68 wrote: »

What negative repercussions?

Lack of promotion... non-renewal of teaching contract... decreasing career opportunities... lack of professional/ institutional accreditation... failure to increase earning potential from research income.

dublinman1990

There is a perception out there that no matter how good or bad a lecturer's manners are; they will still receive their money at the end of the day without solving their core problems.

The good lecturer would argue that the current problems within the Sector are too complicated to resolve.

On the other hand; the bad lecturers just do not care about their level of work they put through to the students. Does Accountability improve in this way? I certainly wouldn't think so. If someone is smart; becomes a lecturer and say they don't care about the work? Well then Sir or Madam, If you don't like it; there are other jobs that can certainly be to your liking I'm sure.

I was told a story by a teacher when studying for an accountancy technician course around 2010-2011 (which I eventually failed) of a person who would fall under the bracket of a bad lecturer.

I heard actually a lecturer literally eating the head of a poor old pensioner who just came in about five minutes late into a lecture for a sociology degree which could have been at Trinity College; His excuse was probably bad traffic or some other delay. The pensioner was being very kind to him at first because he may come up all nice and friendly. But, No; the idiot; i.e. the lecturer scared the living daylights out of him by giving out to him.

The lecturer was probably aged about in his mid-thirties at the time.

What an ill conceived life that some of these people live through.

avalon68

later12 wrote: »

Lack of promotion... non-renewal of teaching contract... decreasing career opportunities... lack of professional/ institutional accreditation... failure to increase earning potential from research income.

Promotion is not always based on publication, funding levels.....sometimes it really is as simple as how long you have been around. As mentioned previously, many of these poor quality lecturers simply keep their heads down - I doubt they care about accreditation/promotion, especially at senior levels. Again, more senior staff are less likely to be looking for new positions - so decreasing job opportunities would not be a huge factor. In the department where I did my PhD, over a 5 y period only two staff members left - one was returning to native country, the other retired. I know of at least 3 investigators in that same department who have not held any external funding in the last 3-4 years. They still get paid decent salaries whether productive or not. They skate by essentially, using up resources without really contributing anything. Obviously not all lecturers can be tarred with the same brush - some are really hard working, world class people. However, many are not, and they should be removed to make way for new, upcoming, innovative researchers. The reluctance in Irish society to remove those who consistently under-perform baffles me. A little pressure can go a long way towards improving performance. I'm not advocating a publish or perish mentality, but there should be some sort of performance evaluation/career review where staff are held accountable for their time.

southsiderosie

Kinski wrote: »

Tbf, a lot of it is published in journals that can only be accessed by subscribing to databases like JSTOR, or by obtaining copies of the journals themselves (not something you can pick up in your local library). The taxpayer is often helping to fund research that she cannot access freely.

Then contact the author and they will usually send you a copy if they don't' already have one on their website.

Honestly, it is not that hard to get access to research. These days, most people who use large data sets will make the data freely available anyway once their publications are out so you can crunch it yourself. Given that replication is a critical component of research (especially experimental work), data hoarding is really difficult, and is a professional no-no.

Of all the things that people could have gripes with universities about, being able to access research output seems like a weird complaint.

later12

avalon68 wrote: »

Promotion is not always based on publication, funding levels.....sometimes it really is as simple as how long you have been around.

It depends on the research resources of an institution. Obviously the smaller institutions will have much less publishing or research output to focus on.

However, from my very light interaction with the Irish University system, my impression is that it is the same as the UK one, i.e. whereby research is the factor that inspires promotion from post doctorate level to professorship. The fact that this structure is pyramidal somewhat defies the notion that promotion is something that happens if you stick around long enough.

there should be some sort of performance evaluation/career review where staff are held accountable for their time.

I don't necessarily disagree. But having said that, I do think that in competitive institutions, academic staff will always have a selfish motivation to increase their research output, and that is a good thing for everyone.

Kinski

southsiderosie wrote: »

Then contact the author and they will usually send you a copy if they don't' already have one on their website.

A hassle-free solution that will never let anyone down...

Of all the things that people could have gripes with universities about, being able to access research output seems like a weird complaint.

I've even heard academics complain about it. Here's an article from The Guardian on this topic.

avalon68

later12 wrote: »

However, from my very light interaction with the Irish University system, my impression is that it is the same as the UK one, i.e. whereby research is the factor that inspires promotion from post doctorate level to professorship. The fact that this structure is pyramidal somewhat defies the notion that promotion is something that happens if you stick around long enough.

Personally I find the UK system far more structured than the Irish one. Plus they have the ability to get rid of underperformers. I interviewed with several UK institutions before taking up my current position stateside, and at the time almost all of them mentioned the fact that they were currently trimming excess staff - both academic and non academic, by about 10%. The irish system suffers from a lack of new talent due to inability to remove staff who are on permanent contracts. The majority of positions come available when people retire.....i guess this is contributed to by the hiring freeze, but this problem existed before that came into effect.