Most Irish emigrants are happier and healthier abroad, survey finds

Permabear

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Valmont

Having been in the UK for eighteen months now, and doing much better than I was in Ireland, looking back at some of my friends still stacking shelves with their first class degrees and masters, I can't believe more people haven't left. Even a cheap Ryanair flight to Manchester can improve one's prospects tenfold.

All my opinion of course.

Brineybay

Tayto, TK red lemonade and rasperry ripple phosphorescent icecream aren't healthy? walking down the pub isn't sport? jejis things have really changed since I've been away these past 20 years...I can never go back now.

The Corinthian

I'd agree. One of the things that I feel was a wasted opportunity for Ireland was that during the boom years we really did little to improve services and infrastructure in Ireland. Public transport is still a joke, health care got worse rather than better, social insurance and state pensions still follows the same bankrupt model that sees someone who's worked their entire lives get much the same as Stabbo who's been on the labour all his life and a huge raft of laws on everything from renting accommodation to family law went unreformed.

These, and more, are things that are standard in most Western countries, but instead of investing in these we pissed it all away.

All before you consider how we really didn't bother trying to invest in indigenous industry. This led to a situation whereby there's lots of entry level and a good few mid-level jobs, but once you get to a certain point in your career, you have to leave because the companies that did get the state's attention are ultimately not Irish and those jobs are done back 'home'.

Living abroad does open your eye's to all this and nowadays whenever I return to Ireland, I can't help feeling that it's a quaint but backward little place; nice to visit, but I couldn't live there.

Apparently though, those of us who decided, with our feet, that we didn't want to be raped by a system that rewards the indolent still owe them a living indirectly:

COUNTRIES that benefit from Irish emigration should pay a tax to the State in return, sociologist Fr Micheál Mac Gréil SJ has said.

The Jesuit priest, who addressed the annual St Patrick’s Day pilgrimage on Máméan in Connemara’s Maamturk mountains, said current emigration was symptomatic of a free movement of labour that had become an “international scandal”.

I know it's been said that Ireland's greatest export is it's people, but trying to make a buck out of it is really taking the piss.

Gran Hermano

What factors encourage someone to emigrate? If someone was unemployed and miserable here it can't be a surprise that they are happier overseas if they find employment and a sense of self worth.

I can't help thinking the report/study is flawed, if someone was totally happy here they wouldn't emigrate in most cases. Would that person be as happy if they moved from the life they are dissatisfied with to a life in another part of Ireland?

Duggys Housemate

Permabear wrote: »

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Very few people cling to that insular view, although some would prefer Ireland for sentimental reasons. I could easily live in Ireland again

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'd agree. One of the things that I feel was a wasted opportunity for Ireland was that during the boom years we really did little to improve services and infrastructure in Ireland. Public transport is still a joke, health care got worse rather than better, social insurance and state pensions still follows the same bankrupt model that sees someone who's worked their entire lives get much the same as Stabbo who's been on the labour all his life and a huge raft of laws on everything from renting accommodation to family law went unreformed.

The government did spend load on health, and trains - at least inter-city trains - did get much better. Roads, which you didn't mention, are better. The problem with stabbo getting the same as somebody who worked is the same in most European countries, although they may have less stabbos per capita.

All before you consider how we really didn't bother trying to invest in indigenous industry. This led to a situation whereby there's lots of entry level and a good few mid-level jobs, but once you get to a certain point in your career, you have to leave because the companies that did get the state's attention are ultimately not Irish and those jobs are done back 'home'.

True, but I doubt that Ireland was ever going to produce an indigenous Google.

Living abroad does open your eye's to all this and nowadays whenever I return to Ireland, I can't help feeling that it's a quaint but backward little place; nice to visit, but I couldn't live there.

I don't know where you are, but I feel where I am - the UK - has serious problems which will be exacerbated in the next 2 generations. The main one being that absolutely nobody in the bottom 90% will be able to afford a house And, even more iniquitous, the locals will find it harder than the immigrants, so an Irish immigrant graduate will have the jump on an English graduate because he will not have to pay back the 36K loan, before he can save the deposit on the 20% he needs for the average two up two down costing £480k in central London. £480K and rising.

Ireland's bust, on the other hand, were I comfortable that I could work there full time - and I think I can bring my work with me, has made the place affordable.

As for trains here, out of London, day or night, is a nightmare.

Duggys Housemate

Gran Hermano wrote: »

What factors encourage someone to emigrate? If someone was unemployed and miserable here it can't be a surprise that they are happier overseas if they find employment and a sense of self worth.

I can't help thinking the report/study is flawed, if someone was totally happy here they wouldn't emigrate in most cases. Would that person be as happy if they moved from the life they are dissatisfied with to a life in another part of Ireland?

The other flaw is

1) Immigrants have to justify the decision to themselves.
2) The unhappy ones will have come home at the first opportunity.


In general though, I don't see modern emigration - the cost of a Ryanair flight - as being the same as the 1950's, or the 1980's

The Corinthian

Gran Hermano wrote: »

I can't help thinking the report/study is flawed, if someone was totally happy here they wouldn't emigrate in most cases. Would that person be as happy if they moved from the life they are dissatisfied with to a life in another part of Ireland?

Possibly, although I would reiterate the structural gap between Ireland and most Western nations and in that even with a job in Ireland you're not going to be too happy; low PPP compared to most other western countries, plus increasing levels of tax, further eroding our income.

Duggys Housemate

The Corinthian wrote: »

Possibly, although I would reiterate the structural gap between Ireland and most Western nations and in that even with a job in Ireland you're not going to be too happy; low PPP compared to most other western countries, plus increasing levels of tax, further eroding our income.

thats not per-capita.

Gran Hermano

The Corinthian wrote: »

Possibly, although I would reiterate the structural gap between Ireland and most Western nations and in that even with a job in Ireland you're not going to be too happy; low PPP compared to most other western countries, plus increasing levels of tax, further eroding our income.

GDP per capita is a skewed statistic. An unemployed plasterer living with negative equity is not going to be as happy as an individual living in Ireland working in ICT. Whilst I know many people who have seen a downturn in their income and quality of life it is not fair to say everyone in Ireland is suffering or living a life below par when compared to their countries.

Duggys Housemate

The link wasn't per capita, as far as I could see, this is

The Corinthian

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The government did spend load on health, and trains - at least inter-city trains - did get much better.

I would dispute that. Trains are still amongst the slowest in Europe, that appear to need about ten minutes sitting at each station for some reason.

Dublin Bus remains a joke. Have they actually introduced real timetables yet? I don't mean the ones that tell you when the bus is theoretically leaving the terminus 5 km away, but when it is going to be at your stop - just like everywhere else in Europe.

Roads, which you didn't mention, are better.

Only because developers needed them to reach all those ghost estates; the amount of money squandered on 'roads to nowhere' was frankly criminal.

The problem with stabbo getting the same as somebody who worked is the same in most European countries, although they may have less stabbos per capita.

Actually it's not. Most European countries will pay you a good percentage of your salary for about a year, before putting you onto the same level as Stabbo. State pensions also differ depending upon what you put into them.

The only country comparable to Ireland in this regard is the UK, who we copied in the first place.

True, but I doubt that Ireland was ever going to produce an indigenous Google.

Why not? We produced the Kerry Group, Iona Technologies and Ryanair - despite lack of government help.

I don't know where you are, but I feel where I am - the UK - has serious problems which will be exacerbated in the next 2 generations. The main one being that absolutely nobody in the bottom 90% will be able to afford a house And, even more iniquitous, the locals will find it harder than the immigrants, so an Irish immigrant graduate will have the jump on an English graduate because he will not have to pay back the 36K loan, before he can save the deposit on the 20% he needs for the average two up two down costing £480k in central London. £480K and rising.

I'm not suggesting that everything is rosy elsewhere. Of course there are issues everywhere, however the points I made still stand.

Additionally, what you're describing is not exactly limited to the UK. Fees in Ireland are likely to go in the same direction too and despite the price of houses falling substantially, salaries are also static, or falling, leading to a similar situation.

Duggys Housemate

Firstly, yes I am comparing with the UK. I do like the European system of paying people a percentage of their earnings, if we have a privatised social insurance system, that is what it would do ( although it would also make sure you got a job - any job - as fast as possible).

I don't know anything about Dublin bus as I never take it.

Fees in Ireland are likely to go in the same direction too and despite the price of houses falling substantially, salaries are also static, or falling, leading to a similar situation.

Lets hope not. I think the tax on education is a major major flaw, and will lead to major iniquities. And - it seems to me since the loan is repaid via the tax code - it will exacerbate immigration. Irish to the UK. UK to Australia etc.

The cost of housing in Ireland is falling faster than incomes, in fact incomes are fairly static for those at work, which is a boon for someone thinking of going back, but not for people there in negative equity of course.

The Corinthian

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I don't know anything about Dublin bus as I never take it.

You're a lucky man. I've used urban transport in most of Europe at this stage and can safely say (unless it has improved magically in the last 4 years) that it is by far the worst. The LUAS and the DART are far better, but unless you live close to one of their lines you're as well off driving.

Lets hope not. I think the tax on education is a major major flaw, and will lead to major iniquities. And - it seems to me since the loan is repaid via the tax code - it will exacerbate immigration. Irish to the UK. UK to Australia etc.

I agree. In fact I think it will encourage emigration even before people have a degree.

Peregrinus

Permabear wrote: »

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This doesn’t mean, it’s important to note, that those who emigrated are happier, healthier, etc than those who didn’t. They are happier, healthier, etc than they themselves were before they emigrated. But, of course, they chose to emigrate at least in part because they were dissatisfied with their situation in Ireland. We can’t impute the same level of dissatisfaction to those who chose not to emigrate.

And of course we also have to allow for the fact that those who emigrate and don’t find what the improvement are looking for may return to Ireland, and so their views and experiences are not reflected in the survey.

And there may also be a “validation bias”; those who have emigrated, and have made a commitment to their new situation, are inclined to validate their decision.

Permabear wrote: »

These statistics would seem to contrast both with the hubristic image of Ireland as the best country in the world, as well as with common domestic representations of emigrants as lonely, homesick, and miserable.

Do we pervasively misrepresent the reality of emigration in this country? Are we perhaps unable to accept that there is a genuinely better life to be found in other nations? Or do we still cling to the insular nationalistic idea that Ireland is such a wonderful country that anyone who leaves it is somehow to be pitied?

Well, yes, these figures do debunk the stereotype of the lonely, dislocated and probably alcoholic Irish emigrant working on the roads and dreaming of his aged mother in Ireland. But, in 2012, does that stereotype really need debunking?

I think for a rounded picture you need to look and the pluses and minuses of emigration. I’ve emigrated to Australia, and now I live in a four-bedroom house with a swimming-pool standing on a quarter of an acre, which I own free of mortgage. I appreciate that, and I acknowledge that it’s unlikely that I would have achieved it had I remained in Ireland. On the other hand, I worry about my elderly parents, who now have no family in Ireland, my daughter has a greatly diminished relationship with her grandparents, my well-established network of close friendships has been seriously disrupted, I can no longer go hill-walking in Wicklow or anywhere remotely like it, and the theatre here is dismal compared to Dublin. In all these respects, my life has degraded.

I’m happy with the move I made. It has had the outcomes that I hoped for, and if I had my time over I would not do it differently. The negative aspects of the move are mostly things that I foresaw when I made my decision. But an overall assessment of whether I’m better off has to reflect the negative as well as the positive aspects. The statistics quoted in the OP seem one-sided to me; in so far as they go, they’re good, but they don’t give anything like a rounded picture of the reality of emigration.

amacachi

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The government did spend load on health, and trains - at least inter-city trains - did get much better. Roads, which you didn't mention, are better. The problem with stabbo getting the same as somebody who worked is the same in most European countries, although they may have less stabbos per capita.

Health spending went on pay. Inter-city trains are generally slower than a few decades ago. Roads improved, can't argue that one.

Permabear

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partyguinness

I moved to the UK 18mts ago. I am not healthier or happier...:(

In Ireland, I played 5 a-aside 2-3 times a week, played on 11 a-aside at weekends plus training. Would also go climbing mountains. As a result I ate a lot healthier. I also loved my job.

Over here, it's just pure ****e. Stuck in a dirty, contaminated post industrial age city. Even the local Premership teams are rubbish.

The food is rubbish, can't find a team to play with. Everything is just difficult. Even the job I used to love has had the life drained out of it. I don't socialise hence I don't drink but that's because pubs here are a totally different creature. They are pretty desparate dumps....:( The Queen Vic on Eastenders is a pretty good representation of a city pub.

It's just a constant race to the bottom to produce the goods/food/provide services for the cheapest. I can get 12 inch ham salad bagettes at lunch time for 50p!!

There is no soul and I weep at the idea that Ireland (outside of Dublin) has become too much like that. It may not be too late.

My new born son may end up growing up here and going through a class ridden elitist educational system and that makes me want to cry...

BTW my wife is from here so it is not a simple case of "Oh just move back if you dont like it.":(

Sorry for the rant.

Valmont

partyguinness wrote: »

Even the local Premership teams are rubbish.

As opposed to the Messi-esque players of St. Pats?

partyguinness wrote: »

The food is rubbish,

partyguinness wrote: »

I can get 12 inch ham salad bagettes at lunch time for 50p!!

[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what the problem is here to be honest.

The Corinthian

Peregrinus wrote: »

And there may also be a “validation bias”; those who have emigrated, and have made a commitment to their new situation, are inclined to validate their decision.

That's a fair point.

Valmont wrote: »

I'm not sure what the problem is here to be honest.

The problem is that not everyone makes the transition to another country smoothly. Sometimes it's not their fault; xenophobia and racism are features in many counties, for example.

Other times it is, although they don't realize it. The classic example is that they make no friends. This is a common enough complaint from people who have never lived abroad, where at home they have a network of family and friends that they've known all their lives. Suddenly that network is gone and they don't have a clue how to create a new one. Added to this might me cultural differences; where do you meet new people in Ireland? The pub. In Italy? Works differently there.

But bad local teams, bad food, etc. seem rather poor complaints as Ireland is not exactly any better in these, TBH.

It's not just blokes with big beards and of certain middle-eastern backgrounds who can refuse to integrate; lots of westerners are just as bad.

Permabear

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Peregrinus

Permabear wrote: »

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I have to say that I largely agree with this. There seems to be no point in coming to another country, and then trying to pretend to yourself that you are at home. I know a lot of really good Irish pubs, and they are all in Ireland; if I wanted to socialise in Irish pubs then coming to Australia would have been a very odd choice. Migrating to another country and then trying to behave as if you were living in Ireland is pretty much setting yourself up for failure.

The Corinthian

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, I did say that in fairness...

One thing I've noticed is Anglophone expats will gravitate towards English speaking social groups of other Anglophone expats. Once they make their 'circle of friends' there, they make no further effort to integrate.

Permabear

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FreudianSlippers

I used to always think the grass was greener here and, after living in the US for a while I was sure of it. However this recession has made me more aware that the biggest hurdle for Ireland is her people.

Perhaps it is leftover issues from independence and civil war, but the focus is always a negative fight with each other and name calling and finger pointing than a willingness to take stock and say "let's fix this".

There are a lot of problems and I have been spending more time in the UK and I'm happier when I'm there. I know problems exist everywhere, but I need to move on; at least for a while.

I'm actively looking for an in-house job in London at a law firm or for a company and as soon as I get one I'm going there. I need to get away and live my life and not deal with Ireland right now.

dave2pvd

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

..... the biggest hurdle for America is her people.

.....the focus is always a negative fight with each other and name calling and finger pointing than a willingness to take stock and say "let's fix this".

See what I did there?