Michael D Higgins

Mark from poland

Did he really deserve over one million votes ? What has he done since he got elected ? At least sean gallagher was going to visit every secondary school in the country, Michael D is going to spend the next 7 years sitting around up in the aras. Before anybody starts talking about sean gallagher and FF Michael D higgins was in the dail during the "boom" years not once did him or his party point out that bertie and co were spending too much money on welfare and everything else, infact in 2007 the labour party accused FF of not spending enough money.

The Waltzing Consumer

I am going to presume you are from Poland and give you the benefit of ignorance in Irish politics. The President is a largely ceremonial role. Our President has been quite visible and vocal since he took office, more then I expected actually so far, and he has been quite positive in his language.

Visit every secondary school? Is that really the best you can muster up?

I don't know if this will remain open very long as it is a pretty terrible argument.

Ellis Dee

Mark from poland wrote: »

Did he really deserve over one million votes ?

I suppose you'd have to ask the over one million voters who voted for him. :rolleyes:

Mark from poland wrote: »

What has he done since he got elected ?

His job as far as I can see. I haven't heard of him doing something he shouldn't have or not doing something he should have. Things like that tend to get pointed out in the media here in Ireland. Don't know what the practice is in Poland.:)

Mark from poland wrote: »

At least sean gallagher was going to visit every secondary school in the country,

And that would have achieved exactly what?

Mark from poland wrote: »

Michael D is going to spend the next 7 years sitting around up in the aras.

How do you know that? Have you seen his schedules?

Mark from poland wrote: »

Before anybody starts talking about sean gallagher and FF Michael D higgins was in the dail during the "boom" years not once did him or his party point out that bertie and co were spending too much money on welfare and everything else, infact in 2007 the labour party accused FF of not spending enough money.

Meh.:rolleyes:

By the way, do you know the three things you need for a really good evening in Poland?

Answer: A litre of Vyborova vodka, a kilo of Cracow salami and a big dog.:)

bleg

I like his focus on intellectualism. We shouldn't fear it. It's something to be embraced.

V_Moth

Mark from poland wrote: »

What has he done since he got elected ?

Not embarrassing Ireland unlike that baldy fella.

later12

Mark from poland wrote: »

Did he really deserve over one million votes ?

Well of course nobody 'deserves' a vote.

If you're asking why he earned over a million votes, the answer has as much to do with the quality of the alternative candidates as it has with Higgins's own Presidential capital.

There was an interesting discussion in this forum recently about Irish people having a reputation for boldness and defiance. I think the Presidency is yet another example of the evidence that such liberalism exists only when it is utterly meaningless.

We are quite prepared to bewstow upon reformative, liberal, even Socialist! candidates like Robinson and Higgins the impotent seal of Presidency, almost as some sort of crotch grabbing demonstration of our bold, lefty credentials.

But when it comes to electing Teedees with strategic, policymaking influence, we're much happier with the Conservative schoolteacher type thank-you-very-much.

raymon

Mark from poland wrote: »

Did he really deserve over one million votes ? What has he done since he got elected ? At least sean gallagher was going to visit every secondary school in the country, Michael D is going to spend the next 7 years sitting around up in the aras. Before anybody starts talking about sean gallagher and FF Michael D higgins was in the dail during the "boom" years not once did him or his party point out that bertie and co were spending too much money on welfare and everything else, infact in 2007 the labour party accused FF of not spending enough money.

Hello Mark , welcome to boards.

Looks like you are a Gallagher supporter... well good for you.

To answer your question ... yes Higgins did deserve all the votes he got. Everyone who democratically voted for him would probably agree with me .

I know a lot of Gallagher supporters were disappointed that he didn't get elected.

However having a liar in the highest office in the land would not have been a good idea.

bonzos

Is he drawing a political pension on top of his current wage?

Dob74

bonzos wrote: »

Is he drawing a political pension on top of his current wage?

I dont think he is, but didnt the law just change so sitting politicians dont get pay and pension.

Anyway I dont think Michael D is in politics for money

Lockstep

bonzos wrote: »

Is he drawing a political pension on top of his current wage?

No.
I really respect him on the wages front as when he was speaking in NUIG he got asked by members of the SF branch would he take the average-industrial-wage and he refused to comment saying he didn't think the presidency was something to be auctioned off to the lowest bidder.
Then he got elected and voluntarily took a paycut of around 25%.
Granted he is still earning around €250k but voluntarily deciding to take home tends of thousands less is pretty cool.

later12

Dob74 wrote: »

Anyway I dont think Michael D is in politics for money

I agree.

But it should be pointed out that if politicians were expected to be self financing, Michael D would probably still be working for ESB.

And what a loss that would have been to the state.

We can't just overlook the undesirability of making politics financially unattractive for perfectly well intentioned individuals, who quite rightly are fearful of losing their place in the private sector. We just have to make sure that we're making it attractive to the right sort: that's where voting comes in.

syklops

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I am going to presume you are from Poland and give you the benefit of ignorance in Irish politics. The President is a largely ceremonial role. Our President has been quite visible and vocal since he took office, more then I expected actually so far, and he has been quite positive in his language.

Visit every secondary school? Is that really the best you can muster up?

I don't know if this will remain open very long as it is a pretty terrible argument.

Am getting married to a Polish girl and have spent a lot of time around Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and other Slavic races, and I cannot trace as much as one hint of the most common slavic linguistic mistakes that even fluent English speakers make in "Mark from poland"'s post. Also Mark is a very uncommon name for a Pole. The closest would be Marek. I also dont see a real Pole, capitalising Mark and not capitalising Poland.

Michael D is going to spend the next 7 years sitting around up in the aras

"Up in the Aras" sounds very Irish to me.

My point being, that by having a username of "Mark from Poland" it seems he is mis-representing himself if he is not in fact from Poland. I set my location as the Czech Republic so as to give context to some of my posts, even though I am Irish.

I therefore question the rest of the post.

Permabear

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Valmont

later12 wrote: »

And what a loss that would have been to the state.

That implies Michael D Higgins actually adds something of value to the state. Apart from his dubious socialist rhetoric, I can't think of much else he brings to the table.

Duggys Housemate

He is full on Frankfurt school. So it is a good thing the role is ceremonial.

Duggys Housemate

syklops wrote: »

Am getting married to a Polish girl and have spent a lot of time around Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and other Slavic races, and I cannot trace as much as one hint of the most common slavic linguistic mistakes that even fluent English speakers make in "Mark from poland"'s post. Also Mark is a very uncommon name for a Pole. The closest would be Marek. I also dont see a real Pole, capitalising Mark and not capitalising Poland.

Yes, and there are clear Irishisms in there too.
Before anybody starts talking about sean gallagher and FF Michael D higgins was in the dail during the "boom" years not once did him

Still, he might be living there, as you say.

Valmont

Lockstep wrote: »

Then he got elected and voluntarily took a paycut of around 25%.
Granted he is still earning around €250k but voluntarily deciding to take home tends of thousands less is pretty cool.

Considering he's being paid very handsomely in bailout money just to make speeches and shake hands, I can't really believe you're actually impressed by this empty gesture. Surely the plight of the country puts its vacuousness in perspective?

K-9

Valmont wrote: »

That implies Michael D Higgins actually adds something of value to the state. Apart from his dubious socialist rhetoric, I can't think of much else he brings to the table.

Patron of the Arts and all that, it isn't really about left or right politics which was a point his critics missed in the campaign. I wouldn't put him up as some major figure in the history state but when people looked at the alternatives and their pasts, he was seen as the safe bet.

Quazzie

Valmont wrote: »

Considering he's being paid very handsomely in bailout money just to make speeches and shake hands, I can't really believe you're actually impressed by this empty gesture. Surely the plight of the country puts its vacuousness in perspective?

Also I thought that the presidential salary was set to €250k before the elections which would make it a mandatory cut.

Kinski

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He is full on Frankfurt school. So it is a good thing the role is ceremonial.

He's on the left of the Labour party, but let's recall that he was part of the Rainbow cabinet, the same govt which introduced the 12.5% corporation tax rate...he's hardly Theodor Adorno.

Duggys Housemate

Heavily influenced by The Frankfurt School of theoreticians, such as Thomas Adorno and Herbert Marcuse, who integrated mass society critique into the analysis of monopoly capitalism, Michael D. Higgins sees "culture" as the set of customs, rituals and products that make up the way of life of every section of the community. As such, art is central to the democratic process and accessible to all.


http://www.hotpress.com/archive/443615.html

Kinski

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Heavily influenced by The Frankfurt School of theoreticians, such as Thomas Adorno and Herbert Marcuse, who integrated mass society critique into the analysis of monopoly capitalism, Michael D. Higgins sees "culture" as the set of customs, rituals and products that make up the way of life of every section of the community. As such, art is central to the democratic process and accessible to all.

A rigorously researched article, by the look of things...:pac:

Whatever about Michael D's intellectual influences, the point is that he sat in govt with FG, and it's difficult to imagine an Adorno pulling up a chair with the likes of John Bruton. Thank God he has no power because he's "full-on Frankfurt School"? He was in power, as part of a centrist coalition.

Duggys Housemate

Its not an article, its an interview asking MD about his influences. He hardly denied anything - it presumably wasn't political poison to be influenced by the Frankfurt school back in the day. This was 1993.

Thank God he has no power because he's "full-on Frankfurt School"? He was in power, as part of a centrist coalition.

Indeed, as part of a coalition. Adorno, were he given power would share it with anybody it took to get his ideology across. In any case Micky D is influenced by the Frankfurt school, as he is by other stuff, no doubt - like Irish culture, music etc. I was slightly tongue in cheek, but he is, nevertheless, influenced by Frankfurt, as are much of the 1968 generation.

Kinski

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Adorno, were he given power would share it with anybody it took to get his ideology across. In any case Micky D is influenced by the Frankfurt school, as he is by other stuff, no doubt - like Irish culture, music etc. I was slightly tongue in cheek, but he is, nevertheless, influenced by Frankfurt, as are much of the 1968 generation.

Are we talking about Thomas or Theodor?

So far as I'm aware, Adorno never sought any sort of power, but you only have to look at his contemptuous dismissal of 60s student radicalism to see that he wasn't interested in forging opportunistic alliances to advance his political ideas.

I actually quite like the fact that we have a president who is interested in areas like political theory and sociology, rather than the anti-intellectual types we usually have in high office in Ireland.

Duggys Housemate

Yes, well it depends on the intellectual discipline. I would prefer a physicist.I personally think that the entire Frankfurt School of critical theory, Bloch, Max Horkheimer, Herbert Marcuse etc. and their antecedents Sigmund Freud, Karl Marx and G.W.F. Hegel are, to a man, charlatans. Also charlatans with blood stained hands.

Hegel is probably the odd man out there, as a non-leftist - but its all bad philosophy.

Lockstep

Valmont wrote: »

Considering he's being paid very handsomely in bailout money just to make speeches and shake hands, I can't really believe you're actually impressed by this empty gesture. Surely the plight of the country puts its vacuousness in perspective?

Yes, I was waiting for this.
If you can find me many more Irish people who would willingly take a paycut of a quarter of their salary I'd be very impressed. Especially as he's also refusing to take out the multiple pensions that he could be taking out.

Neither do I agree with this notion that our politicians should be paid the AIW or even worse, the minimum wage. It's a job and should be paid as such, not auctioned off.

The presidency is an important role, we've already seen how well Robinson and McAleese did the job. Merely as the role isn't policymaking doesn't make it pointless or worthless.

Give him time in the role before casting judgement.

Lockstep

Quazzie wrote: »

Also I thought that the presidential salary was set to €250k before the elections which would make it a mandatory cut.

Untrue.
It's set at €250k for the next president. Michael D took it voluntarily.
Source -

Quazzie

Lockstep wrote: »

Untrue.
It's set at €250k for the next president. Michael D took it voluntarily.
Source -

I wasn't sure when that came into effect. Thanks.

Permabear

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Lockstep

Permabear wrote: »

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Indeed, many would do it for €250k, but how many would voluntarily choose to take €250k when they are entitled to €325k and this cannot be taken away by anyone? Factor in the pensions he is forgoing and it's a verysignificant amount of money that he is well able to claim but refuses to do so.
Auctioning off public office ("I'll do it for less money than he will") I'm sure you'd agree isn't a good idea.
Granted we could have gotten McGuinness who'd take the AIW but he made this a campaign point. Higgins, who refused to comment on it during the campaign and then voluntarily took paycuts and pension waivers once he got is far more admirable. IMHO

MadsL

So, Mark from Poland...what does Bronisław Komorowski achieve that Higgins should emulate - congratulating Putin on victory perhaps???

At least Vaclav Havel fought tooth and nail against Putin's abuses. Is it too much to expect Bronisław Komorowski to carry the torch? It sickens me to see a former eastern bloc President with dissident history lap-dogging through gritted teeth to Putin.

“Lying can never save us from another lie.”
Vaclav Havel

Valmont

Lockstep wrote: »

Indeed, many would do it for €250k, but how many would voluntarily choose to take €250k when they are entitled to €325k and this cannot be taken away by anyone? Factor in the pensions he is forgoing and it's a verysignificant amount of money that he is well able to claim but refuses to do so.
Auctioning off public office ("I'll do it for less money than he will") I'm sure you'd agree isn't a good idea.

My point of contention is with your admiration for what amounts to a negligible gesture, for a role that involves shaking hands at rugby matches and waxing lyrical about lovely old Ireland, which is still costing us a cool 250,000 a year (plus a free house) of "our" bailout money.

Mainly, I would find it worrying that the political class in Ireland, who have done so much wrong during the last decade, can still appease the populace with such transparent and ultimately pointless gestures.

Looking at the financial troubles being encountered by hard-working people all over the country, I find the relative paucity of his "sacrifice" insulting, to be honest.

Lockstep

Valmont wrote: »

My point of contention is with your admiration for what amounts to a negligible gesture, for a role that involves shaking hands at rugby matches and waxing lyrical about lovely old Ireland, which is still costing us a cool 250,000 a year (plus a free house) of "our" bailout money.

You consider €75k a year, plus whatever pension entitlements he has (I'm not sure how much they are but would imagine them to be significant) as a 'negligible gesture'?
You and I must have very different approaches to money.

Keep in mind that the presidency is far from a sinecure. Witness the work Mary Robinson did on human rights or Mary McAleese's involvement in the Peace Process. And that's ignoring the important presidential roles in the Constitution and representing the Irish abroad (which is crucial in a country as reliant on FDI as Ireland)

Valmont wrote: »

Mainly, I would find it worrying that the political class in Ireland, who have done so much wrong during the last decade, can still appease the populace with such transparent and ultimately pointless gestures.

Looking at the financial troubles being encountered by hard-working people all over the country, I find the relative paucity of his "sacrifice" insulting, to be honest.

Out of interest, how much do you think he should give up then? Should he go SF and only take the AIW?
Keeping in mind Michael D was not part of the government during the last decade.

Again, I'd be very surprised if I could find Irish citizens who would voluntarily give up tens of thousands of euros per year.

Permabear

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xflyer

I seriously don't understand what people see in him. Apart from disliking his politics. From what I've heard about him from people directly working with him. He is very much in the absent minded professor mould.

I fully expect him to embarrass Ireland at some point in the future. He is the wrong man for the job.

Lockstep

Permabear wrote: »

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Given that the presidency is disconnected from the legislature, I'm not sure what your issue here is.

I praised Higgins for voluntarily taking a paycut (and waiving his pension) in line with what the government plan for his successor. They cannot force him to do this but he contacted them to say he would waive his salary in line with what they deem appropriate for the next president.

Permabear wrote: »

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You misunderstand me: I noted how you have some candidates who note how they'll do it for the AIW during their campaign. Others get elected and take paycuts voluntarily and refuse to make it a campaign issue.
Do you not see a difference here? I certainly do!

Permabear wrote: »

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As you have noted yourself in the past, politicians pay is a drop in the ocean of our financial woes. Never mind that the Irish Presidency is a role that has 'actual work' to do (I've already given the examples of what McAleese and Robinson have done, plus the importance of the presidency in representing us abroad which is vital in a nation as reliant on tourism and FDI as we are)
Could he be paid less? Sure.
Then again, he's in a no-win situation here. No matter how much he gives up, he'll always have someone complaining that he should give up more, unless he agrees to work for free.

Kinski

Lockstep wrote: »

Then again, he's in a no-win situation here. No matter how much he gives up, he'll always have someone complaining that he should give up more, unless he agrees to work for free.

I'm sure if he had announced upon election that he would only accept, say, 100k euro p/a, he would have been showered with praise (leaving the clutch of cranks who'll complain that politicians earn anything to one side).

The SF and ULA idea of politicians accepting only the AIW is a bit silly, IMO; if you ever want to attract large numbers of talented, dedicated people into seeking public office, you're going to have to pay them well. On Vincent Browne a while back, Constantin Gurdgiev proposed that the pay for positions such as govt ministries should be tied to the AIW; it's a suggestion that has some problems, but is has more merit than the McGuinness one.

Executive Steve

Permabear wrote: »

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:rolleyes:


"Anyone who has read Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban will instantly recognize Michael D. Higgins as Ireland's version of Dumbledore. He's a kind hearted elderly wizard with a deep humanitarian streak whose old fashioned nature and bumbling style belies a shrewd cunning honed by a lifetime at the coalface of politics."

Equally meaningful.

Kinski

Executive Steve wrote: »

Equally meaningful.

Whenever you hear anyone drawing a parallel between reality and an Ayn Rand novel, you can just assume they're preaching to the converted, because nobody else could be arsed finishing one...

FreudianSlippers

€250,000 does seem high considering it's not like he's paying for much at the moment.

Permabear

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FreudianSlippers

I would rather see a re-formed Oireachtas and Presidency than an abolished Seanad and Presidency though.

Permabear

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Kinski

Permabear wrote: »

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AFAIK, the President and the Taoiseach aren't allowed to both be out of the country at the same time. Higgins would have had no choice but to remain in Ireland for St. Patrick's Day, given the Taoiseach's annual invite to the White House.

Permabear

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Kinski

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm afraid I don't; it's just something I've been told, so could be wrong.

Lockstep

Permabear wrote: »

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Well first of all, the US has a different legal system than we do, what with their federal system and all so the Irish Chief Justice and the US Chief Justice are hardly directly comparable. Now leaving that aside, have you any evidence that the CJ has their pay linked to the president's?

In 2011, the presidential pay was €325k whereas the CJ pay was €295k .

Secondly, you have conveniently left out that Cameron also gets a salary as an MP, bringing his total income to the same amount as Higgins. Now, Queen Elizabeth II who has a comparable role to Higgins receives tens of millions a year (as well as being one of the richest women on the planet). But hey, she's just shaking hands.

Permabear wrote: »

Acknowledging that is one thing; actually praising politicians for being willing not to claim the full extent of their insane "entitlements" is quite another. Simply, this culture of "entitlement" needs to be stamped out, everywhere from the Aras down to the single mother on welfare. It is only by weeding out the top-level parasites who wish to while away their lives (and don't forget the lavish pensions — Mary McAleese will be collecting €160,000 a year in perpetuity) on the state gravy train that we will ever get anywhere with reform at other levels.

HE VOLUNTARILY CUT HIS PAY TO €100K? HOW DARE HE?
HE NOW TAKES THE AIW? WHAT A CHANCER
Etc.

He' doing a job and is being paid for it. I'm not sure what your issue is here as a politician has forgone his pension entitlements as well as a quarter of his salary to the highest office in the land (and one who represents the country)

Permabear wrote: »

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Well first of all, he's been in office a few months. You might want to slow down before getting so antsy with him.

Secondly, the Taoiseach goes to the US for St Patrick's Day. Not the president (who needs the government's permission to leave the country). Dunno if this is a rule or not but you know as well as I do that it's customary.

Still, he recently visited the UK where he met with the Irish in the UK (who I'm sure you'd agree are important to our country) as well as addressing the LSE and meeting the Chairman of the 2012 Olympics.

Permabear wrote: »

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I find this criticism quite ironic, given that you have previously praised Thatcher who was a fan of Chilean butcher Pinochet.
But hey, she's a right winger so it's ok, right?

Permabear wrote: »

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Dunno exactly but it's something important enough to be reported in the IT:
"Previous Irish presidents have played a deep role in assisting the IDA attract foreign direct investment into Ireland, and promoting the exports of Irish indigenous companies

Permabear wrote: »

Since it was established in 1938, the Irish presidency has nothing but a sinecure where old party warhorses like De Valera go to die. It's why we see the likes of a has-been Eurovision winner, an opportunistic Dragon's Den judge, and multiple retired party stalwarts jockeying for pole position every time their golden ticket opportunity comes along.

No, it was established along the lines of other parliamentary systems (the UK, Germany, Australia and Canada to name a few)
The president is voted in by the Irish people, not for 'party warhorses' (given that neither McAleese or Robinson were 'party warhorses')

Permabear wrote: »

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Great idea, let's make all Irish politicians work for free. Hey wait a minute, doesn't that mean only the wealthy can become politicians? Nah, who cares.
Disappointed to see you take this tack, in the past you were always an opponent of the hysteria surrounding politicians being paid the minimum wage or the AIW as such talk is pure populism, that if we want people to do a job, they should be paid for it and so on (although sadly, paying high wages doesn't always attract the best but paying too little would attract those who can't get hired elswhere)

Permabear

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czx

Permabear wrote: »

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There is none! Lockstep is just sticking up for his buddy, whatever the cost!

Lockstep

Permabear wrote: »

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Link?

Permabear wrote: »

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Fair enough: we are agreed that the presidency could be paid less, although we doubtless differ on how much less.

Permabear wrote: »

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Again, you're not comparing like with like. Kentucky is a state, not a State.
This gets done a lot such as comparing Ireland to Greater Manchester or Hamburg. We don't pay people by how many people they represent (otherwise Indian or Chinese leaders would be billionaires and
Singapore has a similar population size to Ireland and pays its leader millions,whereas Hongkong pays its president roughly double what our president gets.

There is none! Lockstep is just sticking up for his buddy, whatever the cost!

Yes, we like to meet in secret and he gives me some of his salary to defend him on the internet.

Valmont

Lockstep wrote: »

We don't pay people by how many people they represent (otherwise Indian or Chinese leaders would be billionaires and
Singapore has a similar population size to Ireland and pays its leader millions,whereas Hongkong pays its president roughly double what our president gets.

That aside, and considering that we are in receipt of bailout money, what is the rationale for paying Michael D. Higgins 250,000 euro a year to be president?