Running form... Heel vs Midfoot vs forefoot?

mike.l

As Title .... not sure how foot is supposed to be hitting the ground? conflicting Ideas on the net...........confused

RoyMcC

mike.l

RoyMcC wrote: »

Definition.......... If you open a can of worms, you do something that will cause a lot of problems and is, on balance, probably going to cause more trouble than it's worth.

Fluck....:D

gerard65

Don't think about it, just run.

Pisco Sour

Do not run on your toes unless you are sprinting. A mate of mine (insanely) went out and paid $130 on a pair of vibrams and ran 5k basically on his toes like you would a 400m race, and he wasn't able to walk properly for a week after!

BobMac104

04072511 wrote: »

Do not run on your toes unless you are sprinting. A mate of mine (insanely) went out and paid $130 on a pair of vibrams and ran 5k basically on his toes like you would a 400m race, and he wasn't able to walk properly for a week after!

Ive ran up to 18 miles in vibrams and on my toes and could walk fine after. Your friend did way too much too soon just.

ss43

Don't think about your feet.

If you run with a quick enough frequency your foot will hit the ground underneath you.

If your feet are relaxed they'll probably land ok. The faster you run the more likely it is to be a forefoot or midfoot initial contact. The heel still needs to drop. If you are running really fast the heel might not touch the ground but it will still drop towards the ground.

If you run on your toes without your heel dropping, you will get calf problems.

mike.l

gerard65 wrote: »

Don't think about it, just run.

That's what I was doing which was landing on the heel and started to get a bit of pain from an old injury, read a bit from Dr. Romanov on the subject and he recommend landing on the front of foot to avoid injuries and likened landing on the heel to landing with a brake in every stride, apparently it is not our natural way of running.... if you were running barefoot you will not run on the heel.

Tried running on the front of foot yesterday for a 9mile run and found it fine although I was going faster than I would have if I was landing on the heel, especially down hills, but my calves this morning are in bits.... not sure if I should keep it up or go back to the normal way.

BobMac104

9 miles is too much. try doing shorter runs fore/midfoot landing and build it up.

BobMac104

http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html

this is good

mike.l

BobMac104 wrote: »

http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html

this is good

Interesting indeed...... Going to have to build up these calves!

ss43

BobMac104 wrote: »

http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html

this is good

Seems a bit dodgy to me (looking at the moment of impact section in running kinematics)- plantar flexion is when you point your toes away (as in gymnastics). If you landed with plantar flexion you would have a breaking effect also. You need to land on a relaxed (neither planter flexed nor dorsiflexed) foot for it to be effective.

mike.l wrote: »

Interesting indeed...... Going to have to build up these calves!

If you build up your calves, it's because you're running wrong. Most Kenyans land on their midfoot and have tiny calves. Your foot should be relaxed with your calves only working as a automatic reaction to your foot hitting the ground.

BobMac104

ss43 wrote: »

Seems a bit dodgy to me (looking at the moment of impact section in running kinematics)- plantar flexion is when you point your toes away (as in gymnastics). If you landed with plantar flexion you would have a breaking effect also. You need to land on a relaxed (neither planter flexed nor dorsiflexed) foot for it to be effective.

I think they are refering to the overall position of the foot "toes point slightly down" rather than suggesting full on plantar flexion as shown in the picture of yer mans foot. its quite a neutral position as you say.

ss43 wrote: »

If you build up your calves, it's because you're running wrong. Most Kenyans land on their midfoot and have tiny calves. Your foot should be relaxed with your calves only working as a automatic reaction to your foot hitting the ground.

Again he is saying this as his calves are sore after the run. Its more a conditioning of the muscles and tendons in the lower leg as oposed to "building up your calves". Your calves wont get huge from it like.

ss43

BobMac104 wrote: »

I think they are refering to the overall position of the foot "toes point slightly down" rather than suggesting full on plantar flexion as shown in the picture of yer mans foot. its quite a neutral position as you say.




Again he is saying this as his calves are sore after the run. Its more a conditioning of the muscles and tendons in the lower leg as oposed to "building up your calves". Your calves wont get huge from it like.

If someone is getting very sore calves from running barefoot or adjusting to a forefoot landing, I would say in most cases they are overusing their calves which over time would lead to bigger calf muscles. It could also be just a short term effect as the muscles and tendons get used to being used in a different way but I think anyone who concentrates a lot on how their foot lands, runs the risk of getting very tight and overdeveloped calves. The more you think about footstrike, the more likely you are to overuse your calves and underuse the stronger muscles further up the leg.

Nermal

ss43 wrote: »

If someone is getting very sore calves from running barefoot or adjusting to a forefoot landing, I would say in most cases they are overusing their calves which over time would lead to bigger calf muscles. It could also be just a short term effect as the muscles and tendons get used to being used in a different way but I think anyone who concentrates a lot on how their foot lands, runs the risk of getting very tight and overdeveloped calves. The more you think about footstrike, the more likely you are to overuse your calves and underuse the stronger muscles further up the leg.

Lord save me from bigger calf muscles

Calves are there to take the strain. Muscle will repair itself with rest, knee cartilage won't.

BobMac104

[Quote\]
If someone is getting very sore calves from running barefoot or adjusting to a forefoot landing, I would say in most cases they are overusing their calves which over time would lead to bigger calf muscles. It could also be just a short term effect as the muscles and tendons get used to being used in a different way but I think anyone who concentrates a lot on how their foot lands, runs the risk of getting very tight and overdeveloped calves. The more you think about footstrike, the more likely you are to overuse your calves and underuse the stronger muscles further up the leg.[/Quote]

So if you're running correctly youll have small calves if your running incorrectly you'll have larger calves?

Look it doesn't matter. You don't have to constantly think about foot strike to change how you run, after a few runs it becomes the norm and you're off. You just have to be a bit careful during the transition period.

Each to his own. If you think its a load of rubbish fair enough.

TFBubendorfer

ss43 wrote: »

If you build up your calves, it's because you're running wrong. Most Kenyans land on their midfoot and have tiny calves.

I had a good look at the Kenyan elites in the hotel before DCM. I was almost taken aback by how thin their legs were. It's not just the calves. It has nothing to do with how they land on their feet.

Btw, Patrick Makau, the Kenyan world marathon record holder, is a heel striker.

BobMac104

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

ss43 wrote: »

If you build up your calves, it's because you're running wrong. Most Kenyans land on their midfoot and have tiny calves.

I had a good look at the Kenyan elites in the hotel before DCM. I was almost taken aback by how thin their legs were. It's not just the calves. It has nothing to do with how they land on their feet.

Btw, Patrick Makau, the Kenyan world marathon record holder, is a heel striker.

He does but he's also really light so this helps avoid injury. Plus from a few images of him that while the heel does touch the ground first the majority of the force is taken on the fore foot. He really is an exception though. The vast vast majority of top athletes fore foot strike.

Again if you're heel striking and don't have issues then great. If it ain't broke etc.

entropi

BobMac104 wrote: »

http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html

this is good

Excellent link, thank you! We just covered Biomechanics in college, this could have come in very handy to show my lecturer. I'll still show him anyway

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I had a good look at the Kenyan elites in the hotel before DCM. I was almost taken aback by how thin their legs were. It's not just the calves. It has nothing to do with how they land on their feet.

Btw, Patrick Makau, the Kenyan world marathon record holder, is a heel striker.

BobMac104 wrote: »

He does but he's also really light so this helps avoid injury. Plus from a few images of him that while the heel does touch the ground first the majority of the force is taken on the fore foot. He really is an exception though. The vast vast majority of top athletes fore foot strike.

Again if you're heel striking and don't have issues then great. If it ain't broke etc.

Being really light is mostly an advantage in long distance, as you guys would know...but the heel striking will still put a higher amount of force through his legs than forefront. It's amazing seeing how he manages to not pick up a lot of musculo-tendinous injuries, or even stress fractures considering the mileage he puts in running with that gait!

ss43

BobMac104 wrote: »

So if you're running correctly youll have small calves if your running incorrectly you'll have larger calves?

Look it doesn't matter. You don't have to constantly think about foot strike to change how you run, after a few runs it becomes the norm and you're off. You just have to be a bit careful during the transition period.

Each to his own. If you think its a load of rubbish fair enough.

If you're running incorrectly by overusing your calves they will be larger than necessary. If you run correctly they won't.

In good running form, people will generally have their initial contact on their mid/forefoot. I think it's very important but it should happen as a result of having relaxed legs and generating power from stronger more resilient muscles in the upper legs, glutes and core. There's so much more to good running form than footstrike and footstrike should sort itself out if the rest is ok.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I had a good look at the Kenyan elites in the hotel before DCM. I was almost taken aback by how thin their legs were. It's not just the calves. It has nothing to do with how they land on their feet.

Btw, Patrick Makau, the Kenyan world marathon record holder, is a heel striker.

The Kenyan middle distance guys aren't especially thin in the upper part of their legs (Asbel Kiprop excluded) but are extremely thin in the lower part. The marathon guys are thinner but I'd still say, compared to their calves, that their thighs are reasonably big.

It has a lot to do with how they land and how they run. They are bouncing along in a relaxed manner rather than grinding out performances filled with tension.

It also has a lot to do with the fact that they're not overfed as kids or adults and that they train a lot and burn a lot of calories.

BobMac104

ss43 wrote: »

If you're running incorrectly by overusing your calves they will be larger than necessary. If you run correctly they won't.

In good running form, people will generally have their initial contact on their mid/forefoot. I think it's very important but it should happen as a result of having relaxed legs and generating power from stronger more resilient muscles in the upper legs, glutes and core. There's so much more to good running form than footstrike and footstrike should sort itself out if the rest is ok.

I think you're preaching to the converted. The thread was started questioning footstrike thats why i was mentioning it. You're right there is so much more to good running form than footstrike but it is important i think.

ThisRegard

I doubt overfeeding as kids and over eating as adults has an affect on a persons gait or their running style.

ss43

ThisRegard wrote: »

I doubt overfeeding as kids and over eating as adults has an affect on a persons gait or their running style.

Are you serious? Firstly, of course it could, if you carry a lot of excess weight it can affect your form. If you put extra weight on an athlete they will probably have to increase their frequency as they wont have the strength to get the same length out of their strides.
Secondly, that wasn't the point I was making anyway. It was in reference to the Kenyan athletes being very thin and whether their calves were disproportionately small. It was said that it had nothing to do with their running style. I disagreed but acknowledged the other factors so I couldn't be simply contradicted by saying - they're thin because they don't eat very much.

I've edited bits so you can follow it this time.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I had a good look at the Kenyan elites in the hotel before DCM. I was almost taken aback by how thin their legs were. It's not just the calves. It has nothing to do with how they land on their feet.

ss43 wrote: »

It has a lot to do with how they land and how they run. They are bouncing along in a relaxed manner rather than grinding out performances filled with tension.

It also has a lot to do with the fact that they're not overfed as kids or adults and that they train a lot and burn a lot of calories.

ThisRegard

No one likes a smart arse, but feel free to use smaller words next time for me.

And yes, I'm serious, it's as much to do with genetics than anything else. I'm a flat footed over pronator and was far from an overweight kid, same goes for adult hood. And I'd guess the majority of people who don't have what you see as a 'proper' running style weren't either.

BobMac104

ThisRegard wrote: »

And yes, I'm serious, it's as much to do with genetics than anything else. I'm a flat footed over pronator and was far from an overweight kid, same goes for adult hood. And I'd guess the majority of people who don't have what you see as a 'proper' running style weren't either.

I dont think its 100% genetics as i think form can be taught to a certain extent. apparently seb coes form was far from that easy flowing style when he was younger and worked very hard to improve it. Now saying that it does seem to come more naturally and easier to some. I try my best to run well but at the end of races in particular it all goes to pot and i turn into a pounding mess but i think if worked on in time it will improve.

ThisRegard

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at, genetics has much of an input as anything else, you can only start off with what you're given and work from there. Being a fatty or a rake as a child won't change the fact you were born with flat feet, that's something that's hereditary.

BobMac104

ya fair enough i think we're probably coming to the same point from either side.

I think the fatty thing actually is important though. well not so much as fat v thin but rather active v non active. A kid whos running around alot will probably have better form if they take up road running when they are older than say a kid who never does anything. This you could say brings up the whole kenyans running alot when they are younger which probably leads to a higher proportion of adults with great running form. There are no set rules here but it all contributes i think.

TFBubendorfer

ss43 wrote: »

The Kenyan middle distance guys aren't especially thin in the upper part of their legs (Asbel Kiprop excluded) but are extremely thin in the lower part. The marathon guys are thinner but I'd still say, compared to their calves, that their thighs are reasonably big.

For the 5 or 6 guys I saw at DCM, I specifically noticed how thin their upper legs were.

To be honest, I think your point about calves and midfoot strike is nonsense.

ss43

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

For the 5 or 6 guys I saw at DCM, I specifically noticed how thin their upper legs were.

To be honest, I think your point about calves and midfoot strike is nonsense.

Fair enough if that's what you noticed with those six guys. It's not my impression of Kenyan athletes.

It's not just about calves and midfoot strike.

If you run with a heel strike in front of your body, there will be a braking effect. There is then a much greater likelihood of you using your calves a lot to push off which will not be very effective and will lead to the muscle getting bigger (or already being big from years of doing it - it's not going to grow forever)

If you run with a heel strike but it's underneath your body at the point of greatest impact, there won't be the same braking effect so there won't be the same subsequent problems. I don't think it's ideal but I don't think it's a huge problem and most people who do this probably don't at very high speeds (faster than marathon pace, even if you're Patrick Makau).

If you run on your midfoot, you can still push with your calf and have the same problems.

But if you run on your midfoot and the work of your calf and foot muscles are just a reaction to hitting the ground, then they won't be overworked and overdeveloped.

That's how I see it anyway.

BobMac104

Here's one of Makau its true he does heel strike but i think the majority of the force is still gonna land on the midfoot.

http://www.runwashington.com/uploads/images/elite%20athletes/2010/Berlin%20Mar/Berlin10GMutaiPatrickMakauBWorkuVS.jpg

anyway i doubt any of us are ever gonna trouble him in a race.

gsxr1

I have had recurring knee pain and found running on the midsole cure the problem instantly.

Now i have Achilles tendon stiffness and old inner shinspints bother .

I swear. God did not design me to run.

ss43

This might help.
Stand on a step with your heels over the edge drop them down
legs straight, drop both heels down at the same time and back up to flat feet (don't raise the heels higher than the toe). Start with 10 and buil up every few days or every week.
Same as first exercise except do it with bent knees.
One leg at a time, legs straight, drop the heel and hold that position.
One leg at a time with the knee bent.
Alternating heel drops, drop the left heel down, bring it back up, drop the right down and so on.
Repeat but with bent knees.

They will stretch the calf muscles and achilles tendon and probably build some eccentric strength in the achilles. Be careful with these if you're doing them while your achilles is sore.

When running, try to get your midfoot strike to happen as a result of landing underneath your body with a relaxed foot and lower leg. If you are actively seeking the midfoot landing there is more chance of landing with tense muscles in the shins or calves which can/will lead to problems.

ger664

I think where your foot lands in your stride is of more importance then what part of it touches down first.

Promac

If you're working your calf muscles too much you need to bend your knees more.

This high-speed video was made by Professor Daniel Lieberman of Harvard, videotaping Ken Bob Sexton (widely regarded as the Jesus of barefoot running). Note how his legs never straighten out and how his foot almost looks like it's landing all at once.

"Note the subtle fore-foot landing. I'm not running "up" on the balls of my feet. My knees are bent, which changes the angle of my foot just enough for a fore-foot landing... Relax those calves, let your heel touch the ground. If you feel your heel pounding, bend your knees. If your heels aren't touching the ground, relax your calves."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIL07uYAW-Q

meijin

ss43 wrote: »

They will stretch the calf muscles and achilles tendon and probably build some eccentric strength in the achilles. Be careful with these if you're doing them while your achilles is sore.

yes, that's a good exercise to strengthen feet, achilles and calfs, but as with everything gradual progression would probably work best, so here is some idea (from "Convict Conditioning 2" book); doing them 1-2 times a week and adding maybe 1 set or 5-10 reps per week, and stretching between sets:

exercise|start at|progression
Double Leg Bent - Floor|2 x 20|4 x 100
Double Leg Straight - Floor|4 x 40|4 x 90
Single Leg Bent - Floor|2 x 30|4 x 80
Single Leg Straight - Floor|4 x 30|4 x 70
Double Leg Bent - Step|2 x 30|4 x 60
Double Leg Straight - Step|4 x 30|4 x 50
Single Leg Bent - Step|2 x 15|4 x 45
Single Leg Straight - Step|4 x 30|4 x 50