Gustys spence secret papers

Sunnyisland

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313106771.html

A SECRET meeting between leaders of the Provisional IRA and the UVF in 1974 had to be abandoned when a Dundalk publican ejected the group because he was “afraid of trouble when he heard the Ulster accents”. A report of the meeting at Jimmy’s Bar is contained in the archive of the late UVF leader Augustus “Gusty” Spence, which has turned up in a Dublin saleroom.
Spence, who died last year, was a leading figure in loyalist organisation the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). He spent 18 years in prison for the murder of a Catholic man, Peter Ward, in 1966, but later in life renounced violence and supported the peace process in Northern Ireland.
Spence’s private papers have now been consigned to an auction of historical memorabilia at Whyte’s auctioneers which takes place next month.
Auctioneer Ian Whyte described the archive as “similar to the release of State papers after the 30-year secrecy rule, but containing, instead, a rare version of recent history from the paramilitary perspective”.
Even while in prison, Spence played a major role in orchestrating the activities of the UVF – which is believed to have murdered more than 550 people, the majority civilian Catholics.
His archive sheds light on the thinking of the UVF and the organisation’s efforts, in 1974, to establish dialogue with “senior Provisional and Official IRA leaders to discuss the possibility of a general ceasefire”. The talks collapsed when reports were leaked to the media. Further decades of bloodshed ensued.
A memo in Spence’s archive claims the collapse of the talks was a lost opportunity as “the agreements made between the two organisations could have led to a better understanding and to a permanent ceasefire”.
But the blame is laid on the intransigence of hard-line fellow unionists: “There need not have been any loss of principle, but the super-Prods would not wear it so all further talks with the IRA were hit on the head.”
The document outlines some of the secret meetings between the two groups – providing a rare version of recent history from the perspective of the paramilitaries. The first meeting in 1974 was arranged by “two journalists (K Myers and V Browne)” and took place in “a fishing lodge on the shores of Lough Sheelin” in Co Cavan which was “patrolled by armed Provisional IRA members” – some with sub-machine guns.
At a follow-up meeting in McCabe's Hotel, Mountnugent, Co Cavan, the memo records that a UVF delegate “specifically asked Martin McGuinness (o/c Derry Provisional IRA) what objectives he had in mind when he ordered the bombings of shops, bakeries and other small businesses in Derry”. McGuinness’s response, if any, is not recorded but the memo states: “After some discussion the Provisionals, especially O'Connell and Keenan, said that they would certainly consider this aspect of their campaign.” The late Dáithí Ó Conaill and Brian Keenan were two leading figures in the IRA.
The memo reveals that the UVF seems to have regarded British soldiers and civil servants as legitimate targets for the IRA: “If the Provisional IRA wish to combat British imperialism, we believe that they should direct their bombs and bullets against the armed British forces, British civil servants and other agents of the Crown, and not against the Ulster businessman and worker.”
The perceived loyalism of the UVF is also called into question by the memo, which reveals that its delegation “stated that they had their belly full of the fur-coat brigade and were resolved to seek some form of government and leadership that excluded the landed gentry and upper/middle class. The UVF men stated that they saw no difference between green Tories and orange Tories, between the fur-coat brigade and the castle Catholics; they wanted no more to be cannon-fodder for the politicians. The Provisionals agreed on this part too.”
The archive also includes correspondence to Spence from Peter Robinson MP and Gen John de Chastelain; Christmas cards to him in prison from the late Cardinal Tomás Ó Fiaich; and photographs from inside the Maze.
A letter to Mrs Louie Spence from the Department of the Taoiseach in July 1980 is signed by the private secretary to Charles J Haughey with regrets that it “would not be possible” for the taoiseach to “intervene with the British authorities” to secure her husband’s release from prison “on licence”.
Spence was released in 1984 after serving 18 years. He joined the Progressive Unionist Party and announced a ceasefire on behalf of loyalist paramilitary groups in 1994.


TLDR,
This is indeed a rare insight into a very influential paramilitary leaders views and opinions in what was happening in Ireland in the early seventies,Also very Interesting that kevin myers and vincent brown were involved in the first meetings set up,Also the question asked to MMG and GS/UVF attitude to be no more cannon fodder for there politicians and attacks on the British military by the PIRA as legitimate.It is a pity imo that more senior people in governments both British & Irish did not take the paramilitary leaders more seriously in there views,It might have helped stopped or curtailed the next 30 years of troubles/war/rebellion etc.

Richard

Fascinating stuff. I'm sure his private papers won't be an unbiased account of proceedings, but very interesting all the same.

realies wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313106771.html

A SECRET meeting between leaders of the Provisional IRA and the UVF in 1974 had to be abandoned when a Dundalk publican ejected the group because he was “afraid of trouble when he heard the Ulster accents”. A report of the meeting at Jimmy’s Bar is contained in the archive of the late UVF leader Augustus “Gusty” Spence, which has turned up in a Dublin saleroom.
Spence, who died last year, was a leading figure in loyalist organisation the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). He spent 18 years in prison for the murder of a Catholic man, Peter Ward, in 1966, but later in life renounced violence and supported the peace process in Northern Ireland.
Spence’s private papers have now been consigned to an auction of historical memorabilia at Whyte’s auctioneers which takes place next month.
Auctioneer Ian Whyte described the archive as “similar to the release of State papers after the 30-year secrecy rule, but containing, instead, a rare version of recent history from the paramilitary perspective”.
Even while in prison, Spence played a major role in orchestrating the activities of the UVF – which is believed to have murdered more than 550 people, the majority civilian Catholics.
His archive sheds light on the thinking of the UVF and the organisation’s efforts, in 1974, to establish dialogue with “senior Provisional and Official IRA leaders to discuss the possibility of a general ceasefire”. The talks collapsed when reports were leaked to the media. Further decades of bloodshed ensued.
A memo in Spence’s archive claims the collapse of the talks was a lost opportunity as “the agreements made between the two organisations could have led to a better understanding and to a permanent ceasefire”.
But the blame is laid on the intransigence of hard-line fellow unionists: “There need not have been any loss of principle, but the super-Prods would not wear it so all further talks with the IRA were hit on the head.”
The document outlines some of the secret meetings between the two groups – providing a rare version of recent history from the perspective of the paramilitaries. The first meeting in 1974 was arranged by “two journalists (K Myers and V Browne)” and took place in “a fishing lodge on the shores of Lough Sheelin” in Co Cavan which was “patrolled by armed Provisional IRA members” – some with sub-machine guns.
At a follow-up meeting in McCabe's Hotel, Mountnugent, Co Cavan, the memo records that a UVF delegate “specifically asked Martin McGuinness (o/c Derry Provisional IRA) what objectives he had in mind when he ordered the bombings of shops, bakeries and other small businesses in Derry”. McGuinness’s response, if any, is not recorded but the memo states: “After some discussion the Provisionals, especially O'Connell and Keenan, said that they would certainly consider this aspect of their campaign.” The late Dáithí Ó Conaill and Brian Keenan were two leading figures in the IRA.
The memo reveals that the UVF seems to have regarded British soldiers and civil servants as legitimate targets for the IRA: “If the Provisional IRA wish to combat British imperialism, we believe that they should direct their bombs and bullets against the armed British forces, British civil servants and other agents of the Crown, and not against the Ulster businessman and worker.”
The perceived loyalism of the UVF is also called into question by the memo, which reveals that its delegation “stated that they had their belly full of the fur-coat brigade and were resolved to seek some form of government and leadership that excluded the landed gentry and upper/middle class. The UVF men stated that they saw no difference between green Tories and orange Tories, between the fur-coat brigade and the castle Catholics; they wanted no more to be cannon-fodder for the politicians. The Provisionals agreed on this part too.”
The archive also includes correspondence to Spence from Peter Robinson MP and Gen John de Chastelain; Christmas cards to him in prison from the late Cardinal Tomás Ó Fiaich; and photographs from inside the Maze.
A letter to Mrs Louie Spence from the Department of the Taoiseach in July 1980 is signed by the private secretary to Charles J Haughey with regrets that it “would not be possible” for the taoiseach to “intervene with the British authorities” to secure her husband’s release from prison “on licence”.
Spence was released in 1984 after serving 18 years. He joined the Progressive Unionist Party and announced a ceasefire on behalf of loyalist paramilitary groups in 1994.


TLDR,
This is indeed a rare insight into a very influential paramilitary leaders views and opinions in what was happening in Ireland in the early seventies,Also very Interesting that kevin myers and vincent brown were involved in the first meetings set up,Also the question asked to MMG and GS/UVF attitude to be no more cannon fodder for there politicians and attacks on the British military by the PIRA as legitimate.It is a pity imo that more senior people in governments both British & Irish did not take the paramilitary leaders more seriously in there views,It might have helped stopped or curtailed the next 30 years of troubles/war/rebellion etc.

later12

Sounds like a wonderful resource for historians. Hopefully it is within the province or capacity of a public body like the National Archives to assume this collection.

I found this passage to be particularly intriguing.

The perceived loyalism of the UVF is also called into question by the memo, which reveals that its delegation “stated that they had their belly full of the fur-coat brigade and were resolved to seek some form of government and leadership that excluded the landed gentry and upper/middle class.

The UVF men stated that they saw no difference between green Tories and orange Tories, between the fur-coat brigade and the castle Catholics; they wanted no more to be cannon-fodder for the politicians. The Provisionals agreed on this part too.”

KeithAFC

” The late Dáithí Ó Conaill and Brian Keenan were two leading figures in the IRA.
The memo reveals that the UVF seems to have regarded British soldiers and civil servants as legitimate targets for the IRA: “If the Provisional IRA wish to combat British imperialism, we believe that they should direct their bombs and bullets against the armed British forces, British civil servants and other agents of the Crown, and not against the Ulster businessman and worker.”

Something the PIRA seemed to not take hint of and suffered as a consequence.

Sunnyisland

KeithAFC wrote: »

Something the PIRA seemed to not take hint of and suffered as a consequence.

A memo in Spence’s archive claims the collapse of the talks was a lost opportunity as “the agreements made between the two organisations could have led to a better understanding and to a permanent ceasefire”.
But the blame is laid on the intransigence of hard-line fellow unionists: “There need not have been any loss of principle, but the super-Prods would not wear it so all further talks with the IRA were hit on the head.”


It seems PIRA where not the only ones not taking the hint and we all suffered as a consequence.

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Something the PIRA seemed to not take hint of and suffered as a consequence.

Bit ridiculous making demands on who should or shouldn't be killed when they were shooting innocent Catholic's. The world is a better place without the likes of Spense.

KeithAFC

woodoo wrote: »

Bit ridiculous making demands on who should or shouldn't be killed when they were shooting innocent Catholic's. The world is a better place without the likes of Spense.

It was a dirty war which involved the deaths of Republicans and Unionists. The war is over.

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

It was a dirty war which involved the deaths of Republicans and Unionists. The war is over.

And innocent people who were neither unionist or republican. Not all of the Catholics killed were republicans (and you know that well enough but you like your word play).

Dannyboy83

The first meeting in 1974 was arranged by “two journalists (K Myers and V Browne)” and took place in “a fishing lodge on the shores of Lough Sheelin” in Co Cavan which was “patrolled by armed Provisional IRA members” – some with sub-machine guns.

Perhaps I'm being naive, but it seems quite disappointing that it fell to two journalists to try get some communication going.

Sunnyisland

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Perhaps I'm being naive, but it seems quite disappointing that it fell to two journalists to try get some communication going.

With both the Irish & british governments more concerned with how they came across to the outside world, talking to terrorists Paramilitaries would not be here on there agenda,In there view giving any legitimacy to these groups only encouraged them, How wrong they where.

KeithAFC

woodoo wrote: »

And innocent people who were neither unionist or republican. Not all of the Catholics killed were republicans (and you know that well enough but you like your word play).

Or Protestants in that case. I don't think this thread should get logged down in that though. This is a very interesting bit of information OP. Thanks for posting.

later12

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Perhaps I'm being naive, but it seems quite disappointing that it fell to two journalists to try get some communication going.

Not only that, but they two sides were sitting down across from each other in a Dundalk pub in 1974, apparently of their own accord.

This demonstrates that to an extent, these paramilitary groups were there for the convincing - or may have been - if the British and Irish authorities had been ready to move. Alas, it was a good twenty years before we saw any effective intergovernmental collaboration on that front.

K-9

realies wrote: »

The perceived loyalism of the UVF is also called into question by the memo, which reveals that its delegation “stated that they had their belly full of the fur-coat brigade and were resolved to seek some form of government and leadership that excluded the landed gentry and upper/middle class. The UVF men stated that they saw no difference between green Tories and orange Tories, between the fur-coat brigade and the castle Catholics; they wanted no more to be cannon-fodder for the politicians. The Provisionals agreed on this part too.”

Nothing particularly shocking in that for myself. I remember a book dealing with sectarian attacks in the shipyards in the 20's ans 30's and earlier, name escapes me now, but the general theme was the Orange Order and the Protestant etc. churches drumming up the fear, keep divisions as any chance of left wing, socialist movements drumming up support was seen as an attack on their power. The Catholic Church the same. My memory was Protestant and Catholic churches colluded in their own way to keep the "common man" down, any notions of Socialism were seen as a massive threat, the flock might get "notions".

Belfast had all the credentials to eventually be a Liverpool, a declining industrial city that lost its wealth and power from the 19th century. Liverpool turned to hard left Socialism, Derek Hatton an archetypal example in the 80's, one of 4 huge thorns in Maggie's side, Belfast and NI proved to be another, unfortunately for completely different reasons, the total opposite of what the UVF and IRA were talking about in the papers, the Miners and the Wapping strikes the other.

Belfast and NI was too busy fighting a sectarian war to worry about the last throws of Socialism.