No need for investigation of DART detonator incident

eejoynt

HSA and RAIU types can go home
mark gleeson has all the answers on rail users forum

The driver probably dropped his bag by accident and one or more went off

Why do we need expensive investigation professionals?

woodseb

i'd reckon that if a driver can end up in hospital, rail services be disrupted, bomb squad being called etc...all because someone accidently dropped their bag, it needs investigation into how it can happen so easily

Jehuty42

To give them something to do and justify their existence and drain on taxpayer funds I guess.

I imagine they were mobilised when reports of a loud bang at a busy public transport hub were received, which is a good thing given current global politics.

[edit, this was in reply to a comment by run-to-da-hills that's disappeared about why the army needed to show up]

Run_to_da_hills

These things on what I gather are no more than glorified caps or Hilty bullets that make a loud bang on impact.

Why did they need to get the Army involved?

flyingsnail

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

These things on what I gather are no more than glorified caps or Hilty bullets that make a loud bang on impact.

Why did they need to get the Army involved?

Presumably they would be the only people who could make safe such a device or at least deal with the risk of any further explosion. One person was already injured, leave the pros deal with it.

LXFlyer

I suspect the OP was being mildly sarcastic!

monument

For anybody who does not know what happened -- http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0306/breaking28.html

Jehuty42 wrote: »

To give them something to do and justify their existence and drain on taxpayer funds I guess.

I imagine they were mobilised when reports of a loud bang at a busy public transport hub were received, which is a good thing given current global politics.

[edit, this was in reply to a comment by run-to-da-hills that's disappeared about why the army needed to show up]

The army bomb disposal unit had one of its busiest years last years, largely related to gangland callouts of very viable devices, so I'm not sure if drain on taxpayer funds is really suited to them.

bk

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Fair point. No need for the lad with the gun standing around though, was there?

[Mod edit]
EOD have their reasons for having an Armed Escort but those reasons are not for discussion [/mod edit]

Given the device detonated and injured someone, then there is certainly need for investigation, specially if something as simple as dropping a bag can detonate them.

If they are so easily detonated, then surely they should be carried in metal briefcases with foam inserts specifically designed to cushion and carry them.

mathepac

He's lyin' in wait in case any more Blaster Capa show up on suicide missions or it comes to a gangland show-down and a fight to the death between the Blaster Caps, the Hilti Hoods and the StarterGun Scrotes. Check it out bro', peace in the 'hood courtesy of The Man, dude.

Jehuty42

I wouldn't be too quick to overreact- this seems like an isolated accident with no precedent that I can find. Detonators certainly don't usually blow up in storage. Maybe a better idea would be to stow them with the train(as is done with the track short-circuiting bar) instead of issuing them to drivers to carry around making them more liable to damage. Of course then you have the problem of them being stolen from rear cabs at night. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7431688.stm

Although they are apparently also stolen anyway regardless http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-14190670

parsi

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

These things on what I gather are no more than glorified caps or Hilty bullets that make a loud bang on impact.

Why did they need to get the Army involved?

They make a bang alright and can cause damage. My old fella has a fine scar on his forehead from when he attacked one with a hammer as a kid.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Very necessary, the bomb disposal squad carry explosives with them (to denote explosive devices), so they always need an armed escort in case some IRA or gangland types decide to try and rob those explosives and other valuable equipment.

Given the device detonated and injured someone, then there is certainly need for investigation, specially if something as simple as dropping a bag can detonate them.

If they are so easily detonated, then surely they should be carried in metal briefcases with foam inserts specifically designed to cushion and carry them.

They are supposed to be carried in a special metal container and dont detonate easily. You could drop them on the ground and they wont go off.

Cookie_Monster

Why are they carried by the driver rather than permanently stored in the cab?

The risk of scumbags breaking into a train to steal them I assume would be the main reason against it but it seems risky enough to be constantly carting them around with various drivers.

Hilly Bill

Should be in a metal container for when carrying to place them on tracks and the same container should be kept in a metal storage box locked with a padlock when not in use. Its still strange and rare for them to go off so easily.

Judgement Day

Perhaps he left his bag on a radiator while having an extended tea-break? I have never heard of a similar incident before.

Hilly Bill

Judgement Day wrote: »

Perhaps he left his bag on a radiator while having an extended tea-break? I have never heard of a similar incident before.

Why suggest an extended tea break? The Bag on the rad could be a possible though.

101sean

It's not only drivers who carry them. Back in the UK I had a works van that was previously used by a COSS (Controller of Site Safety), had a nose round in back after I'd had it for several days to find a a full tin of dets rolling around in there!

Be interesting to find out why they went off as it shouldn't happen accidentally. They are dated so I assume they can degrade.

Carawaystick

101sean wrote: »

Be interesting to find out why they went off as it shouldn't happen accidentally. They are dated so I assume they can degrade.

They might be designed to a probability of failure, rather than failsafe; so you'll get a failure on average every once in x. A failure can happen any time, though.

Victor

eejoynt wrote: »

Why do we need expensive investigation professionals?

Because someone was injured, possibly seriously, in a circumstance where there it would be considered unusual for someone to be injured. Separately, there may have been damage to railway property and thirdly, services were disrupted. The ultimate objective would be to prevent such an incident or a similar incident from reoccurring.

Given that it appears that some railway staff and others are casual in their possession and use of detonators, it may be useful for that to be inquired into also.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Why did they need to get the Army involved?

Unstable explosive devices in a public area.

Quite a few EOD call outs are for things like unstable laboratory chemicals. Very few for legitimate explosives use.

Judgement Day wrote: »

... while having an extended tea-break? ...

Some decorum wouldn't go astray. He got the train from Greystones to Bray in 9 minutes, so I can only assume he wasn't on a tea break.

eejoynt

@lxflyer
poster was indeed being mildly ironic ( sigh)
unwise on this board i now realise
post might have been better ttiled

rail users ireland - a unique combination of arrogance and ignorance

dowlingm

maybe this thread can now be closed since Victor has dealt with the (legitimate) operational security concerns and eejoynt has confirmed the whole thing was an exercise in time-wasting and downright childish pointscoring against a different forum.

pad180

here's a picture of one big enough to blow a few fingers off

Dades

eejoynt wrote: »

@lxflyer
poster was indeed being mildly ironic ( sigh)
unwise on this board i now realise
post might have been better ttiled

rail users ireland - a unique combination of arrogance and ignorance

eejoynt - it's obvious that you started this thread as a bit of a soapbox.

Boards forums are not here to facilitate peoples gripes, so in future try and be somewhat constructive with your posts.

Hilly Bill

Victor wrote: »

Because someone was injured, possibly seriously, in a circumstance where there it would be considered unusual for someone to be injured. Separately, there may have been damage to railway property and thirdly, services were disrupted. The ultimate objective would be to prevent such an incident or a similar incident from reoccurring.

Given that it appears that some railway staff and others are casual in their possession and use of detonators, it may be useful for that to be inquired into also.

Unstable explosive devices in a public area.

Quite a few EOD call outs are for things like unstable laboratory chemicals. Very few for legitimate explosives use.
Some decorum wouldn't go astray. He got the train from Greystones to Bray in 9 minutes, so I can only assume he wasn't on a tea break.

I doubt it very much that the staff are casual in the use of the detonators. Its not that they can be used when the staff feels like it.

Victor

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I doubt it very much that the staff are casual in the use of the detonators. Its not that they can be used when the staff feels like it.

In some deleted posts, people have said otherwise.

Hilly Bill

They are used for protection not for amusement. Saying that the staff use them casually would suggest that they just lash them down on the tracks when they feel like it regardless of what the deleted posts said.

Victor

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They are used for protection not for amusement.

And using them as Halloween bangers?

Hilly Bill

Staff or ex-staff? either way its a stupid thing to do . Once they are out of date they are supposed to be returned and sent to be made safe not as keep sakes or halloween bangers.

Hilly Bill

pad180 wrote: »

here's a picture of one big enough to blow a few fingers off

Did you get the other 3 ?

mickydoomsux

Victor wrote: »

In some deleted posts, people have said otherwise.

The fact that you believe them and you are a category mod says a lot about the bias of this subforum.

Victor

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The fact that you believe them and you are a category mod says a lot about the bias of this subforum.

Go on.

Cookie_Monster

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The fact that you believe them and you are a category mod says a lot about the bias of this subforum.

Why is there any reason not to believe them? Maybe the "real"* railway are careful enough with them but the heritage crowds don't really need to be as serious. We've already had examples from Parsi and 101Sean about the blazen attitude some people have to them...
* that's not meant in any offensive way, merely to seperate official stuff from the hertige etc side

dowlingm

Can we not just shut this down until RAIU issues a report, as they surely will, no matter what the title says?

Terrontress

If someone were to want to use them as Hallowe'en bangers, how would they ignite them. If they are set off by the pressure of the train, which I imagine to be considerable, how do you replicate that? Or do you just lob one in the fire?

Cookie_Monster

Terrontress wrote: »

If someone were to want to use them as Hallowe'en bangers, how would they ignite them. If they are set off by the pressure of the train, which I imagine to be considerable, how do you replicate that? Or do you just lob one in the fire?

With a train on the hallowe'en train rides by what ever preservation group was the point of it

Terrontress

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

If someone were to want to use them as Hallowe'en bangers, how would they ignite them. If they are set off by the pressure of the train, which I imagine to be considerable, how do you replicate that? Or do you just lob one in the fire?

With a train on the hallowe'en train rides by what ever preservation group was the point of it

Oh, fair enough. Provided they do no damage to the rails then I see no problem with that, as long as those setting them off are responsible for the cost. The railway is a controlled environment so you aren't going to have idle bystanders. If they are being used away from the railway then there is a problem but I can't see them injuring anyone if they are being used as intended, albeit without the intended reason for using them.

101sean

Back in the 80s on the line I volunteered on, the out of date dets were set off under the last train of the season. Doubt if it's permitted now as the the HSE and RAIB are as tough on them as the real railway.

This is all going nowhere anyway until we see the RAIU report on the incident.

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

With a train on the hallowe'en train rides by what ever preservation group was the point of it

To clarify something here on preserved lines in Ireland using them.....

Detonators are used to warn an oncoming train using a line out of station limits in the event of a line being impassable. This would include a failed train, a serious incident, a crash etc. They are used one mile away from the blockage (3 detonators 30 yards apart) and one each placed every 1/4 mile onwards. This is their one and only application in a conventional sense. Occasionally they are used to mark a special event such as a first or last train on a line but this is very very rare and it's done with arrangement and forewarning. Lines that run under one train in steam or manual train staff protection don't have need to use them

The only line that I know which used them in Ireland was the Cavan Leitrim. Even then it was just on Halloween trains and them only for the noise they make. Certainly, we don't use them on the DCDR and given that most preserved lines here are short lines or are one train in steam their use isn't required. That said, procedures for incidents would be part of your safety case and other arrangements would be in place should the worst ever happen.

@Terrontress, they do need a lot of pressure to be set off but a hammer or a car would set them off. Also, throwing them into a fire would set them off. The big issue is that they are made to make a **** load of noise and setting them off manually would not be good for the shock system or hearing

Park Royal

The detonators are extremely useful in protecting a failed train, eg

a train full of passengers has engine failure, detonators are place

1/4 of a mile to the rear and front of the failed train,

mist and fog descends blanketing out the failed train. A relief train is

sent into the section to bring the failed train forward to the next platform,

the driver of the relief train on hearing the detonators go off under his wheels

then knows he is within a 1/4 mile or so of the failed train and drives

accordingly..........even slower than his approach to the detonators...

Run_to_da_hills

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Staff or ex-staff? either way its a stupid thing to do . Once they are out of date they are supposed to be returned and sent to be made safe not as keep sakes or halloween bangers.

Once they are out of date they should immediately call in the army bomb disposal unit and have them disposed of.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

To clarify something here on preserved lines in Ireland using them.....

Detonators are used to warn an oncoming train using a line out of station limits in the event of a line being impassable. This would include a failed train, a serious incident, a crash etc. They are used one mile away from the blockage (3 detonators 30 yards apart) and one each placed every 1/4 mile onwards. This is their one and only application in a conventional sense. Occasionally they are used to mark a special event such as a first or last train on a line but this is very very rare and it's done with arrangement and forewarning. Lines that run under one train in steam or manual train staff protection don't have need to use them

The only line that I know which used them in Ireland was the Cavan Leitrim. Even then it was just on Halloween trains and them only for the noise they make. Certainly, we don't use them on the DCDR and given that most preserved lines here are short lines or are one train in steam their use isn't required. That said, procedures for incidents would be part of your safety case and other arrangements would be in place should the worst ever happen.

@Terrontress, they do need a lot of pressure to be set off but a hammer or a car would set them off. Also, throwing them into a fire would set them off. The big issue is that they are made to make a **** load of noise and setting them off manually would not be good for the shock system or hearing

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I've a few of them in my bedroom; they are the older kind which are steel and look like big bottle tops. They sure look innocent for their sins. I'm shocked to hear of one going off; they are quite robust things all told.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

My Dad was ex Irish Rail so that's how I got mine. <snip> used to use detonators on their hallow'een trains.

So storing out of date detonators in a bedroom is not part of their use? Are these detonators regulated at all by Irish Rail or by law? Do drivers or contractors have to sign for them and account for usage, theft or other losses?

BrianD

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Once they are out of date they should immediately call in the army bomb disposal unit and have them disposed of.

Or bring them down to the science lab of the local school and the ordinance team and can do two jobs at the one site.

With the speed of modern trains are these detonators some what out of date?

Let's say on a high speed line would a driver or crew have the time to walk back the distance and attach the detonators and what length of track does an express train need to stop?

the DART is obviously not an express line but with the number of services that move slower and the type of signaling are they of any use?

Jehuty42

I imagine the steps in order of preference for protecting a broken down train are

-contact signalman via cab radio to have him stop any trains entering the section
-contact signalman via lineside phone to have him stop any trains entering the section
-contact signalman via mobile phone to have him stop any trains entering the section
-place track short circuiting bar in rear to set signal behind the train to danger
-place detonators in rear to alert driver of a train in rear to stop

On most lines, it should be impossible for another train to get anywhere near the broken one- as long as the broken down train is in the section, the signals protecting the section will remain red. Either due to occupying the track circuit, actuating an axle counter, or having the ETS instrument thereby blocking the signaller from signalling other trains in to the section. The detonators are only needed if there's a signalling failure or there is no such interlocking to protect the train or there is no way of getting in touch with the signalman. They are very much a very very last resort kind of thing, if all else fails.

flyingsnail

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I imagine the steps in order of preference for protecting a broken down train are

-contact signalman via cab radio to have him stop any trains entering the section
-contact signalman via lineside phone to have him stop any trains entering the section
-contact signalman via mobile phone to have him stop any trains entering the section
-place track short circuiting bar in rear to set signal behind the train to danger
-place detonators in rear to alert driver of a train in rear to stop

On most lines, it should be impossible for another train to get anywhere near the broken one- as long as the broken down train is in the section, the signals protecting the section will remain red. Either due to occupying the track circuit, actuating an axle counter, or having the ETS instrument thereby blocking the signaller from signalling other trains in to the section. The detonators are only needed if there's a signalling failure or there is no such interlocking to protect the train or there is no way of getting in touch with the signalman. They are very much a very very last resort kind of thing, if all else fails.

In addition to this they can be used to protect a train that has broken down and needs to be rescued, to do this two trains need to occupy the same section.

mickydoomsux

Detonators are also used as a fail safe protection for per way crews during engineering possessions and by gatekeepers in the event of a catastrophic failure/accident at a level crossing.

Captain Chaos

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Detonators are also used as a fail safe protection for per way crews during engineering possessions and by gatekeepers in the event of a catastrophic failure/accident at a level crossing.

Remember that accident with the 121 working nose end first, the driver didn't hear the detonators go off and ran into an engineering train. Ever since all 121s have to work cab end leading. There were visibility concerns for nose end first workings even before this happened even though steam locos have a similar cab settup.

pad180

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Did you get the other 3 ?

was it not the other two

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Once they are out of date they should immediately call in the army bomb disposal unit and have them disposed of.

Hardly. I'm sure there is a proper procedure for rotating stocks and their eventual disposal.

parsi

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why is there any reason not to believe them? Maybe the "real"* railway are careful enough with them but the heritage crowds don't really need to be as serious. We've already had examples from Parsi and 101Sean about the blazen attitude some people have to them...
* that's not meant in any offensive way, merely to seperate official stuff from the hertige etc side

I should clarify that the incident described happened over 75 years ago...

Terrontress

While I am ashamed to admit it now, as kids we went and put coins on the railway tracks. It was at a station so there were no trains at speed passing through. But a train going over a 1p piece makes a mighty noise; like someone hitting the rail as hard as they could with a sledgehammer.

Losty Dublin

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Remember that accident with the 121 working nose end first, the driver didn't hear the detonators go off and ran into an engineering train. Ever since all 121s have to work cab end leading. There were visibility concerns for nose end first workings even before this happened even though steam locos have a similar cab settup.

It was only a footplate man's wagon it hit and very little damage was caused. The crux of the problem laid with the fact that firstly a diesel's suspension absorbed some of the detonation and secondly because the cab of a 121 was closed off to the elements and insulated unlike a steam engine.

There was two lines where a 121 was allowed to work hood first. Anybody hazard a guess where?:)