Galway County Council planning Che Guevara monument

Permabear

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It's causing outrage in Florida as well apparently

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/01/che-guevara-statue-galway_n_1313568.html

Responding to Ros-Lehtinen’s comments this evening, Galway City Councillor Billy Cameron said that Ros-Lehtinen and everybody else who has spoken out on this issue “is within their rights” to voice their objections, but that the project was given the full and unanimous support of the council. “I honestly think this has been blown out of all proportion,” he said of criticism of the project which commemorates Guevara’s Irish ancestry. “The Galway connection was established some years ago. He’s related to two of the Galway tribes, the Lynches and the Blakes. We want to celebrate somebody from our historic past.”

I don't know if the people of galway are likely to object if this "but he's an O'Guevara" sentiment carries on

RichieC

I'm pretty sure we have a statue of Reagan in this country somewhere. No outrage. he had a lot of blood on his hands.

Che's life is an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom. We will always honor his memory. ~ Nelson Mandela

Dirk Gently

I'm in favour of any statue that upsets libertarians. Petty, I know.

Gregor Samsa

Kilkee in Co. Clare has a (to be) annual "Che do Bhetha" festal in his honour:

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/che-guevara-festival-to-prove-a-revolution-166700.html

RichieC

The monument looks to be more in Honour of the famous Jim Fitzpatrick picture either way. Possibly one of the 20th centuries most iconic pictures.

Pride Fighter

Permabear wrote: »

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Che Guevara is a hero and one who had some distant links with Galway. This will be a good tourist attraction and will bring in much needed revenue into the west.

Would you prefer a statue of the bloodthirsty dictator Batista?

Permabear

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Gregor Samsa

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Would you prefer a statue of the bloodthirsty dictator Batista?

If the answer comes back as "No", it doesn't take away from people's objection to the Che statue.

As for attracting tourists, I'd say a lot of Americans - who the West of Ireland court as tourists - won't be all that happy with it (rightly or wrongly). So I doubt it will be the attraction they claim it will be. I doubt too many Europeans will be that interested in seeing it that it makes a difference. We really don't get many South and Central American Communists coming here on holiday.

Maybe it's better to restrict the statues and commemorations to people who have done something good for a particular area, instead of jumping on a bandwagon that we don't fully understand.

It's a bit like France putting up a statue to Cromwell, on the grounds that he supported a form of republicanism, and it might bring in some tourists. We Irish might have some legitimate objections to that.

Pride Fighter

Permabear wrote: »

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I suppose when you have a rich elite backed by the mafia, the US government and multinationals drastic action has to be taken. The situation in Cuba was comparable to modern day Burma, North Korea and Libya. Che saved the Cubans from death and destruction by a fascist dictator.

I prefer this quote myself- "Che's life is an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom. We will always honor his memory". Nelson Mandela

Pride Fighter

phutyle wrote: »

If the answer comes back as "No", it doesn't take away from people's objection to the Che statue.

As for attracting tourists, I'd say a lot of Americans - who the West of Ireland court as tourists - won't be all that happy with it (rightly or wrongly). So I doubt it will be the attraction they claim it will be. I doubt too many Europeans will be that interested in seeing it that it makes a difference. We really don't get many South and Central American Communists coming here on holiday.

Maybe it's better to restrict the statues and commemorations to people who have done something good for a particular area, instead of jumping on a bandwagon that we don't fully understand.

It's a bit like France putting up a statue to Cromwell, on the grounds that he supported a form of republicanism, and it might bring in some tourists. We Irish might have some legitimate objections to that.

Do you oppose the park in Eyre Square being named after a man responsible for more deaths than Che and for starting a huge war in South East Asia?

Gregor Samsa

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Do you oppose the park in Eyre Square being named after a man responsible for more deaths than Che and for starting a huge war in South East Asia?

Yes. And the arboretum in his name in Wexford.

JustinDee

Permabear wrote: »

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Waste of money.
Galway has bigger issues on its hands than expensive statues dedicated to Argentinian 'revolutionaries' and hardly has the purse to afford it.

If someone wants to claim Castro's Cuba as 'Freedom' personified, ask a Cuban of the age of forty-plus just how great it was during the mainstay years of that era.

Gregor Samsa

JustinDee wrote: »

Waste of money.
Galway has bigger issues on its hands than expensive statues dedicated to Argentinian 'revolutionaries' and hardly has the purse to afford it.

In fairness, Galway aren't paying for it:

The commemorative sculpture will be entirely funded by the Cuban and Argentine Embassies and a design by Simon McGuiness will now go before the Galway City Council’s Working Group for approval.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/24569-%E2%80%98che%E2%80%99-statue-salthill-prom-sparks-outcry

Pride Fighter

phutyle wrote: »

Yes. And the arboretum in his name in Wexford.

At least you're consistent, unlike Permabear who has an ideological aversion to Che.

Fair play for that.

Permabear

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golfball37

Permabear wrote: »

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We could have done with him in Anglo and Leinster house a few years ago for we know the courts will never give us our justice.

RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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Is there a memorial for the 20k plus murdered by Batista?

later12

Erecting a memorial to an individual is by no means a comprehensive endorsement of everything that individual has stood for, and all of his actions. If it were so, statues of Robert Emmett, Wolfe Tone and Constance Markiewicz would have disappeared (I personally would gladly contribute to the demolition of the latter).

I have to say I don't see any real problem with this statue going ahead. I hope it does go ahead. Nobody (that I know) supports Guevara for his more questionable revolutionary strategies, but they do recognize his contribution to humanity as someone who proposed a new model for mankind with which many of us (whilst not sharing all of his ideals) can strongly identify.

Permabear, is it just a co-incidence that you are so vehemently opposed to socialism and this statue? I have a suspicion this isn't just about the men Guevara killed.

Curly Judge

Those bloody Galwegians.
First they give us Michael Twee for President.
Now we're to have as statue to a Maoist.
What next, I ask myself?
Canonizing Comrade Joe perhaps?

Permabear

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Gregor Samsa

Curly Judge wrote: »

Those bloody Galwegians.
First they give us Michael Twee for President.
Now we're to have as statue to a Maoist.
What next, I ask myself?
Canonizing Comrade Joe perhaps?

Worst of all, they gave Ryan Tubridy the Freedom of Clifden and Connemara :eek:

http://www.galwaynews.ie/20482-free-haircuts-freeman-tubridy

Permabear

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Pride Fighter

Permabear wrote: »

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How is it red herring?

It is an old moral quandary. Was the US right to nuke 2 Japanese cities, killing hundreds of thousands, to save millions of lives in the long run. That is the choice that faced the Cuban people, allow Batista kill even more than the 20k he did already, or kill themselves to prevent the mass killing of the Cuban population. It's a situation not many will ever know what they would do if they were in.

Personally I think the revolutionaries were right.

RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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His record is there for anyone who wants to read it. I'm not so much defending him as adding a little reality check to the thread. Far far worse men in history have statues around the place. Reagan, George Bush snr and jnr. Bill Clinton. blood thirsty tyrants in their own right and responsible for far more egregious bombings and invasions. Yet I doubt you'd pipe up about that.

Fact of the matter is Che, Castro and their 26th of july movement liberated that island from a tyrant. Che was not armoured by what Castro turned out to be either.

The Tribunals of which Che led about 50% of in La Cabaña fortress were carried out in order to stop the Cuban population taking the law into their own hands and creating lynch mobs against the wealthy and Batista followers.

"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere." - Jon Lee Anderson

MungBean

Permabear wrote: »

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Just monetary ends then yeah ?

later12

Pride Fighter wrote: »

How is it red herring?

In fairness he's right. Just because Batista was a bad guy, and Guevara opposed him, it doesn't make Guevara a good guy.

The sins of Guevara's opponents are not there to be balanced against Guevara's own doings, which are to be weighed and assessed independently.

Personally, I look at Guevara and I can quite cheerfully admit his more doubtful practices and his more harebrained ideas to endorse the essence of the man as someone who has ultimately changed the world, and changed many people's understanding of what it is to be a man, for the better.

But it isn't good enough simply to ignore his errors of judgement and go off on a tangent about Batista as though in Guevara's defence.

Gregor Samsa

RichieC wrote: »

Fact of the matter is Che, Castro and their 26th of july movement liberated that island from a tyrant.

And handed it to another.

Lets commemorate people who didn't negate the good they aspire to by perpetrating something just as bad as that which they were fighting against.

later12

Permabear wrote: »

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Lol.
Yes.

Permabear

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RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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He pardoned as many as he killed by many accounts, just told them to leave the country.

As i mentioned, and you ignored. the tribunals were to stop angry cubans turning into a lynch mob.

Permabear

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RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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Where are you getting innocents from? a regime that murdered 20k Cubans during its run is going to have a lot of guilty people.

Permabear

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xflyer

I hope this doesn't go ahead. It's utterly stupid. Even if you ignore the fact that he was ruthless Communist revolutionary and a killer. There are far more deserving people to have a statue erected in their honour.

Are we so short of Irish heroes we have to commenorate a foreigner who did nothing for Ireland?

Just because he had a tenuous connection to Galway. We have to have this idiotic monument?

What are they thinking?

What's next, a statue of Lenin in Eyre Square?

Typical Galway idiocy.

RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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You'll find plenty enough apologists for that, and statues of those guilty of it.

Fact is, the picture is one of the more iconic pictures of the 20th century and the work of an Irish man. Galway has a right to be proud of it.

Pride Fighter

xflyer wrote: »

What's next, a statue of Lenin in Eyre Square?

Eyre Square Park is already named after a bigger murderer.

Pride Fighter

Permabear wrote: »

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If he were to release those prisoners they would drum up support and re-start the war. Not saying it was right, but can understand it to a degree. As Cicero said, laws grow silent in times of war.

Permabear

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Permabear

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RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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I'd assumed Jim was a Galwegian, incorrectly, I think. I cannot find where he's from, only that he went to school in Meath. So i might well be wrong on that one.

Either way the picture is an Irish one.

Stop pretending your outrage is anything but ideologically couched, though, Permabear. or at least stop accusing others of dishonesty.

Permabear

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RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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Yep, a bigger murderer.

Permabear

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snubbleste

Just to point out OP, this has nothing to do with Galway County Council.

RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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There's a double standard at work in this world. when it comes to left wing revolutionaries the standards needed to be met are far far higher than those of the right leaning persuasion.

I doubt you'd start a thread if it was another Reagan statue being erected.

Crooked Jack

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Che Guevara is a hero and one who had some distant links with Galway. This will be a good tourist attraction and will bring in much needed revenue into the west.

Would you prefer a statue of the bloodthirsty dictator Batista?

His grandmother. It's hardly distant.

Permabear

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JustinDee

phutyle wrote: »

In fairness, Galway aren't paying for it:
http://www.galwaynews.ie/24569-%E2%80%98che%E2%80%99-statue-salthill-prom-sparks-outcry

They could just donate money to the city if it means that much to them. Argentina and Cuba are hardly flush themselves to blow out on little extravagances.

RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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None of those tyrants meet my standards.

Permabear

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