How to become an airline pilot in Ireland?

DJDontaz

Hi. I'm a student and I want to become an airline pilot but I have no clue where to start. I know DCU do an Aviation Management w/ Pilot Studies course but is that what I'm looking for?

I know there are ways of becoming a pilot but they costs over 80 or €90,000.

I hear you can train with aer lingus?

I'm not sure. Any help?

Thx

Suits

DJDontaz wrote: »

Hi. I'm a student and I want to become an airline pilot but I have no clue where to start. I know DCU do an Aviation Management w/ Pilot Studies course but is that what I'm looking for?

I know there are ways of becoming a pilot but they costs over 80 or €90,000.

I hear you can train with aer lingus?

I'm not sure. Any help?

Thx

First off dont get drawn in by the people that want to take you money and who try and sell you a dream.
The DCU course is largely untested and airlines are always nervous about taking graduates of such courses as they dont know exactly what they are getting, plus there is a tendency for them to fear those with the business qualification will look to leave the flight line for an office job.

I would avoid the likes of PTC and the other large schools in this financial climate and look more towards NFC in Dublin and Atlantic Flight Training in Cork.

If you want advice it's this. Do your reseach on the industry. Make YOUR OWN choices. NOBODY can guarantee you a job and anyone who says they can needs to be avoided as they are most likely looking to draw you into something. It will cost you atleast 60k all in to get qualified.
But you have to look into the industry yourself and try and figure out where you want to go with your career. We all have our own set of circumstances here and each person's chosen path may differ.

So take a few weeks to look into the industry. How you plan to sell yourself and if you can afford to move into an industry where a starting wage of 18-25k gross is the norm. Go for a few hours up in a light aircraft to see how you like it and take to the people you meet at the aerodrome.
It's a dangerous road with a lot of blind alleys(and i know cos I've been down some).
But my overall advice is to so as much homework as you can on flight schools, airlines, jobs, conditions, locations etc and then see how they suit your lifestyle.

PS: Aer Lingus cadetships are a hit and miss affair. They has a few 1000 applicants this year and took 20. Unfair selection methods and nepotism are the norm with this. They may run another one in 2013, but nobody knows. If you want my advice on the matter I'd go off your own bat and be your own man. Dont be tied to an airline.

cocoshovel

Either way I imagine its going to cost you in excess of 50k

mickdw

Can someone give a breakdown of the cost associated with firstly PPL and then the costs of the various stages right up to being an airline pilot.
The figures put out seem to vary so much even for PPL. I am interested in PPL myself.

Lustrum

The PPL costs €10335 if you pay upfront, giving you €300 off what it would cost if you paid per flight.

That pays for 45 hours in a 172, estimated landing fees, briefings, groundschool and I think they count about €300 of it towards flight test aircraft rental - that equates to a 1hr 40 flight test, which would be extremely short considering mine was 2hr 20.

More than likely, you're looking at another grand or 2 on top of what's quoted to cover the extra hours you'll have to do (outside of florida I've never heard of anyone doing it in 45hrs), the 4 IAA written exams and the fees for SPL issue, PPL issue and an examiner on the day.

But it's definitely money well spent - get your licence, and come summer there's nothing like popping across the water to the aran islands, or hopping up to Donegal for a bit of lunch on the beach before flying home

Cessna_Pilot

Never ever pay up front. Ever.

xflyer

Unfair selection methods and nepotism are the norm with this.

Yes and no apparently. Word is there were several attempts at nepotism which failed miserably. Some sons of senior Captains got no further than other Joe Soap's sons. Apparently too there was an older age profile selected. Not good news for recent Leaving cert graduates. Also word is that the cost to the cadets is apparently rather less than originally suggested. If you didn't apply or dropped out because of the apparent cost, it appears you have made a mistake.

DJDontaz, so you want to be an airline pilot? As you haven't made your motivation clear. I have a few questions for you and it's important: Why?

Do you want to fly? Is your room plastered with photos of jets (and girls). Do you go to the airport and press your nose to the fence watching the airliners go by and say to yourself: 'One day, that'll be me'. Do you have badly made model aircraft hanging from the ceiling? Do you flight sim? Is your favourite programme Ice Pilots? Are you even now saving money for a couple of flying lessons? Are you prepared to spend years doing other jobs in order to raise the money to fly? When you qualify are you willing to fly for free or for bad pay for long days sometimes in the middle of nowhere for years at a time?

Or do you want to be an airline pilot because it looks like a cool career compared to many of the other rather tedious sounding careers out there. You get big money, a cool uniform, the chance to travel and kudos of having a glamourous job and get to hang out with air hostesses? Is your favourite program Pan Am?

Ok, I'm exaggerating a bit. Neither is an ideal motivation. But the main one is a desire to fly because all too often the only good thing about the job is the flying, particularly these days as terms and conditions have been eroded.

So before you progress this idea further, question your motivation because it's a long hard road with absolutely no guarantee of success.

boeingboy

Or do you want to be an airline pilot because it looks like a cool career compared to many of the other rather tedious sounding careers out there. You get big money, a cool uniform, the chance to travel and kudos of having a glamourous job and get to hang out with air hostesses? Is your favourite program Pan Am?

YEP Worked for me!! And still does.

Quebec Delta Mike

That's a very interesting reply there, xflyer, but very useful also.

If you are really motivated, and have plenty of money, my advice is to talk to some airline pilots. They are to be found at most busy private airfields, Trim, Newcastle, Kilrush, or better still go to Weston Airport, near Leixlip, Dublin. There are several flying schools there, the biggest being the National Flight Centre. You will find pilots of all experience levels, both learners and fully qualified, just ask around. Aviation is a very friendly business at pilot level, and most are only too happy to pass of their experience and encouragement, don't be shy.

QDM

xflyer

boeingboy wrote: »

YEP Worked for me!! And still does.

Yeah sure Boeingboy, that's why you hang out here all the time.

I suppose you never look up when something flies over and you don't have a pile of aviation magazines cluttering up your house. Plus you don't really like flying:D

Be honest!

On the other hand, I can't deny it wasn't just a pure desire to fly that motivated me. I think all of the above would apply, except maybe Pan Am which I thought a bit silly.:o

Suits

Can I point out Lustrum that I completed my PPL in 44h 56mins(or 45h if the IAA are reading) all in Ireland.:D So it is doable. But it was done in 5 weeks of spring when there was a reasonable stretch of sunshine, but a fair few days lost to haze.

I had to slog away for almost 2 years before I could start on the road and it was hard stuff. You are left bitter by some experiences and encouraged by many others. But when I got to doing it and got airborne and deep into it I realised that it was what I want to do.

The glitz and glamour doesnt come easily. You have to work years in crappie jobs to get there. I think a lot of inexperienced guys and girls go in and get preyed on by the "money men" and "witch doctors" of the industry.
Go find an airline pilot and talk to them and ask their advice and about their day to day life. Get a feel for what you're throwing 60k into! Because like all things, it's not for everyone.

xflyer

That's good going. I know someone who did it in Ireland over the Winter. Not sure of his hours but he got through. So the Irish weather excuse doesn't wash. Mind you, you do have to be particularly dedicated and single minded even in spring. But luck helps, one April had particularly good weather. I managed to log 70 hours that month. It literally took me years to log my first 70 hours.

On the point of inexperienced people having their illusions shattered. I think part of the problem is that all too often pilot training is sold as if it was like studying something like Engineering or IT or Accountancy. In most university courses there's a reasonable expection of getting a job in the industry at an entry level. Even in the boom years that was never true of flying. But some flying 'colleges' liked to give that impression. As a result sometimes you would find some confused 300 hour recent graduate of some school or other posting on PPRunE complaining that he it's almost three months now since he left and not only the school hasn't got him a job but not a single airline has even returned his calls.

It's even more true now. The worst of it is that unlike most other jobs lack of use erodes the skills very quickly and it's expensive to stay current.

Illusions are soon shattered in that scenario.

Suits

xflyer wrote: »

Also word is that the cost to the cadets is apparently rather less than originally suggested. If you didn't apply or dropped out because of the apparent cost, it appears you have made a mistake.

Double edged sword there. You may pay less for training but be hit badly in the pocket when you get you FO pay packet. After all Aer Lingus are not a charity! It has been suggested here and elsewhere that the cadets as FOs may earn less than the poor damned souls at Ryanair.
For a young guy that may not be an issue, gimme a 500ml coke and a pot noodle and I'll survive, but for those who came to the race later in the day and have a wife and kids and are giving up a good job to chase the dream...the pay issue may well make life very hard.

As was said during the cadetship thread, there is no golden tickets. They will pay for the training somewhere in the deal. Aer Lingus said there would be no "bond", but I know for a fact that if you leave before your 1st contract runs out you will be "liable for costs"....aka..a bond!

Irish Steve

There are several points to be made here, and you can make of them what you will.

The first is that the aviation industry in Ireland is unfortunately very small, so the number of openings at any time is also relatively small, and competition for them can be fierce. There are very few openings outside of the main airlines, the GA and business side of aviation here is almost non existent in comparison to other countries, and not likely to improve any time soon, partly due to the size of Ireland, and partly due to the economic environment, and partly due to the begrudgery attitude towards business aviation that's too common.

There can be times when despite all the right things having been done, it still goes pearshaped, and doesn't work out. I had that scenario with Saddam Hussein and Gulf War 1, having spent the money to get to the ATPL stage, just before I was ready to do the flight tests, the bottom fell out of the pilot market as a result of Gulf 1, and by the time it recovered, the regulators had changed all the rules, and to get to ATPL again would have meant another marathon session of even more stupid exams with things on the syllabus that were totally irrelevant to learning to fly, and only relative to some airline types doing their absolute best to keep "self improvers" out of commercial flying.

In the same way, there can be times when there's a real shortage of aircraft in Ireland to do flight tests. It's improved now, but I came back from the States with my brand new ME CPL/IR in one hand, and the forms to apply for the same flight tests in Dublin, and discovered that the only aircraft in the country at the time that could be used for ME flight tests had made a gear up landing while I was away, and was going to be out of action for at least 6 months, by which time, my exams would have been out of date. Hiring in a G reg aircraft for the test wasn't an option. End of dream yet again.

Ok, I was not doing all this straight out of the school system, I'd been working for a number of years, which made it harder and easier, but in the end, I've not been able to realise the dream of getting into the air with someone else paying me to do it, but that's life.

Nothing I could do at the time to change it, no matter how hard I tried, so I got involved in other areas, some aviation related, and did a lot of work with some very complex PC based flight sim systems, and that was good. Even now, nearly 20 years on, I'd still love to be in one or other of the seats at the sharp end, but the regulators are doing their damndest to make it as hard as possible for that to happen for increasing numbers of people, and making it harder to do things like convert licences from one system to the other.

I've flown a lot of hours in both the FAA and the European system, and done the exams and flight tests in both, and while they are different in some areas, there is not that much difference. Sure, if you do your PPL in Florida, and then come back to Ireland and expect to be comfortable flying here, you are going to get some nasty surprises, but that would be equally true for a florida pilot going to fly in other parts of the States, if you've not experienced weather, then you are in for a shock.

Xflyer hit the nail on the head with some of his comments.

If you live, breathe and dream about flying, and Ice Pilots fires your imagination, then it sounds like you should keep going for it. If you see flying as a glamourous cushy number with all manner of perks, that is an outdated image of flying, for most pilots now, the flying is much more intense, with far fewer fringe benefits, and a lot of pressure to achieve "targets", some of which are imposed by beancounters that are not pilots, so at times, those targets conflict with the best practises of flying. Things like beancounters requiring the autopilot to be used from very shortly after take off to almost all the way to landing may well save a few cents in fuel burn, but it does nothing for keeping the piloting skills current and sharp, and if the automation for some reason can't be used, the skills are possibly the only difference between a successful and disastrous outcome, as will become clearer when the full report into the Air France 330 comes out.

At the end of the day, as has been said, what will make the difference is what you REALLY want, and how much you want it, and are prepared to fight for it, and work hard for it. In the 20 or so years that I've watched commercial aviation closely, it's changed a lot, and quite a few of those changes have not been to make the job more appealing, in some areas, the changes have made the job harder, and less fulfilling.

Long haul now is a lot simpler than it used to be, the modern navigation systems and the range and capability of modern jets mean that getting from A to B is routine, and having to turn back when nearly half way there is no longer a regular occurrence, and things like engine failures are so rare, most pilots will never see one happen during their career. It's also why modern jets only need a flight deck crew of 2, when not that long ago, a long haul had a crew of 5, sometimes more. The real downside of that is that when things really do go bad, the workload on the 2 man crew can be extreme, and there's no spare bodies to help work the checklists and try to sort out what's really happening, and the bottom line is that regardless of how serious the problem is, one of the 2 crew is going to have to work, possibly very hard, at making sure they continue to "aviate, navigate and communicate", which can leave the non flying pilot with a very heavy workload just to even work out what's actually happening. The A380 that lost an engine on takeoff, and did a lot of damage as it wasn't contained, was nearly 5 hours before they'd worked all the checklists to make sure they could land safely, and that was with a "heavy" crew, and some extra experience on board that under normal circumstances would not have been there.

The recent LOT 767 that ended up landing gear up at it's home base, and they did it very well, could possibly have been able to get the gear down, if they'd known that a circuit breaker that had tripped was needed active for the gear deployment, but even in contact with maintenance and other specialists, no one suggested checking that breaker, because no one in the air or on the ground realised that it was implicated. Airlines used to encourage people to learn more about their environment, and the aircraft they were flying, but now, again, the beancounters and some less than enlightened chief pilots discourage pilots from using simulators to learn more about the aircraft, and doing things that might not normally happen, the attitude too often now is that it's either "not standard operating procedure", as if SOP's were the be all and end all of all emergencies, or they fear that a pilot may be trying to hide a skill shortage, rather than improve their knowledge.

Modern flying is much more about management of systems, and "the aircraft", and about checking that the automation is going where it's supposed to, and that it's all working correctly, the concept of the pilot "flying" the aircraft is very much reduced, and in some cases, there may be less than 10 minutes of airborne hands on flying in a 12 hour flight, the rest of the time is spent watching the automation and making sure that it's all behaving, and making routine reports of progress. Short haul such as the flights that Ryanair and Aer Aran are doing is more intense, and has more involvement, and a lot more interaction, simply because the time between take off and landing is much shorter, so there's less time in the cruise, when it's normally relatively relaxed. That too is not without it's stresses, especially if the rosters are not friendly, switching regularly from early to late starts, even if you are back at base every night can be hard on sleep patterns, and short turnrounds are high pressure, there's a lot to do with very little time to do it in.


You're maybe wondering which side of the coin I'm favouring here. The answer is neither, the choice has to be yours, but only if you know what your motivation is, what you can expect if you do go for it, and what will be expected of you when you get there, and what I've tried to do, maybe successfully, maybe badly (and that's for others to judge) is paint a wider picture of the industry and make sure that some of the areas that the flight schools say little or nothing about have been exposed slightly more clearly so that you can make a more informed decision about if flying professionally is really what you want to do.

From here on in, it's up to you, and which ever way you decide to go, the best of luck, there will be time when you will need it.

xflyer

For a young guy that may not be an issue, gimme a 500ml coke and a pot noodle and I'll survive, but for those who came to the race later in the day and have a wife and kids and are giving up a good job to chase the dream...the pay issue may well make life very hard.

Yes and remember during the training process, they have no income other than usual pocket money. Even if you aren't married, if you have car loan or any financial committments. You are going to be way out on a limb.