Travellers' rights?

Eire.

Why is there such a thing as traveller's rights? Are they not the same as human rights? What is the definition of culture in this case?

Permabear

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Cork24

Permabear wrote: »

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Yeah thats right.. force them all into council House and within 2 months the house will have to be Repaired costing tax payers more money.. they were houses in the South Side of Cork that cost the Tax payers over 3k each to get redone thanks to travelers rights.

they occupy land then cry wolf when forced to move out of that land..

i would say move them all into one local Area and keep them their just like something like District 9 the movie. give them one big land plot in every County and keep all the Family's in that one plot of land..

they have the north side of Cork in a dump up by Apple looking out of Apple all you can See is Travelers going up and down in the horse cart.

what about poor family who spends 3k on Horse box and 30 mins Later its on its way to England should that be place in the law?

foggy_lad

Permabear wrote: »

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On one hand travellers rightly demand and must be afforded the same rights and protections as all other citizens of the state but on the other they scream "your laws and rules are not our laws" they live by their own rules which invariably are at odds with the laws of the state.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Permabear

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mikemac1

OP, you may as well go see what they want in terms of rights and entitlements

http://paveepoint.ie/

Lack of implementation of the Traveller education strategy was a key issue — Pavee Point stressed the view that the government has selectively implemented and ‘cherrypicked’ which of the proposals in the strategy to implement and which to discard.
As a result, the various Traveller specific supports have been abolished, such as the visiting teacher service, the school transport service, purely as a cost saving measure, while other positive aspects of the strategy have not been implemented, such as the design of an intercultural education system capable of affirming the Traveller identity. Resources, texts and training to bring these about have not been forthcoming.

Who else gets the Dept of Education paying teachers to come to your home? Maybe it happens with ill children, I don't know. But if they won't stay somewhere for the school terms and go to the school it's a bit much to complain about not getting a teacher to come to you with this visiting teacher service that taxpayers fund.
And school transport service still exists, you pay three hundred euro or so and it serves students in most counties of Ireland.
Lastly we have a national curriculum, there is no need or call to design a new curriculum to affirm the traveller identity. Let their own groups sort that out themselves and they could do a better job of it then something the Dept of Education would design.
All these demands above what the average Irish student gets.

The issue of accountability for the Traveller health budget was raised, along with the need for funding to be ring-fenced for the future.

I wasn't aware they have a health budget ring fenced for them
Sure they are young and old, fit and infirm and have the same access to local hospitals as any of us.
There is larger issues with dying younger but then if I lived on dirty sites my health would suffer too.

In the context of health service reform, Pavee Point expressed the need to develop and apply affirmative action measures to address the health of Travellers in the future and redress the gap in outcomes

I cringe to read affirmative action. Don't go for the most efficent options to serve everyone but instead ringfence money to target a small group? Are they citizens like us or are they not?

Pavee Point broached the issue of austerity measures undertaken by the government, particularly the disproportionate impact of cuts on the Community & Voluntary sector, including the Traveller sector, where in various programme areas, cuts have exceeded 50% in some cases. There was general concern that cuts to Traveller programmes have been extremely disproportionate.

Looks like Fine Gael and Labour hate travellers according to the lobby group.
Everyone knows about austerity but the cuts to them have been disproportionate. But then every groups says this, turn on Joe Duffy and the pensioners feel hard done by

Pavee Point are no more then a lobby group and it's their just to push and argue and do anything possible to get funding and their message across

Eire.

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes, but don't most travellers pull the children at of school at around the age of 13? In some cases even younger? If a settled person done that, social services would be called and rightly so, but the traveller says "culture" and everyone turns a blind eye!

byhookorbycrook

I have never heard of a school refusing a traveller, becasue they are travellers. Likewise I have never heard of a visiting teacher, perhaps you mean the resource teacher for travellers (RTT)?

mikemac1

It's their site that lists visiting teacher service

That's all I have to go on

RiseToTheTop

Why should there be such thing as travellers rights?

Do the travellers want these because they want more rights than the "normal" Irish citizen, because in their opinion, they are "disadvantaged"? Do they believe they are not allowed into regular society and want more rights?

Permabear

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Permabear

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gcgirl

Eire. wrote: »

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Yes, but don't most travellers pull the children at of school at around the age of 13? In some cases even younger? If a settled person done that, social services would be called and rightly so, but the traveller says "culture" and everyone turns a blind eye![/Quote]
Up to 40 yrs ago most working class families were like that, my mum left school at 14, my aunt was 13/14 their other sister was 15, they all left to work in the local factory, while the younger lads were In school, out of 6 kids only 1 sat their leaving cert.
I know quite a few settled travellers and they in courage they're kids to finish school with their leaving cert, I also have found the kids to be better behaved than some other people who think their it.

Eire.

gcgirl wrote: »

Up to 40 yrs ago most working class families were like that, my mum left school at 14, my aunt was 13/14 their other sister was 15, they all left to work in the local factory, while the younger lads were In school, out of 6 kids only 1 sat their leaving cert.
I know quite a few settled travellers and they in courage they're kids to finish school with their leaving cert, I also have found the kids to be better behaved than some other people who think their it.

Yes, my mother and her siblings left school at a young age also, but that was to go out and work as the family was so large that they needed the money to survive. however this is not the case with travellers, they leave school to get married, or claim welfare, the vast majority of them don't work. I know alot of travellers also, and all of them are on the dole.

RiseToTheTop

What about travellers rights and public houses? What about rights in these places?

Wile E. Coyote

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

What about travellers rights and public houses? What about rights in these places?

Thats a business premises and the owner has the right to refuse who he wants.

the_syco

Permabear wrote: »

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Good. People have to apply for a school place, and although they will probably get in if they tick all the boxes, the Stokes didn't (father hadn't gone to the school), and he was unsuccessful in the lottery of remaining places. So, as he was a traveller, discrimination was screamed.

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

What about travellers rights and public houses? What about rights in these places?

The owners have a right to refuse anyone. If a load of english lads came to a pub with a stag do, they can be prevented from coming in, as some pubs don't like the trouble stags cause. If a load of travellers come for a few drinks after a travellers wedding to a pub, the publican is not allowed (by law) to prevent them entering their pub unless there is a private function happening in the pub, or the pub is closed with no-one in the pub, as otherwise it's "discrimination". In the recent past, a certain village had all of their pubs closed when a travellers wedding happened nearby.

gozunda

Eire. wrote: »

Why is there such a thing as traveller's rights? Are they not the same as human rights? What is the definition of culture in this case?

A declaration of "human Rights" is just that - a declaration.. The European Union itself has not yet joined the Convention on Human Rights.

The Council of Europe is responsible for both the European Convention on Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights. These institutions bind the Council's members to a code of human rights which, though strict, are more lenient than those of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Irish Travellers are recognised in Britain as an ethnic group. The Republic of Ireland, however, does not recognise them as an ethnic group; rather, their legal status is that of a "social group"

Recent DNA studies have shown that travellers are definitly irish in origin...

So while there are entitlements in law in Ireland to certain rights of citizenship etc there is also an obligation on all citizens to obey the laws of the state (and that includes not infringing others legal rights)

So as a social group travellers are the same as the rest of use with regard to their rights - they are held to be no different that the rest of us on this lovely little lisland


I can demand my right as a cabbage Grower if I wish for special consideration with regard to "my rights" however it does not follow that this will be awarded me even if I consider myself to be disadvantaged as a member of the cabbage grower fraternity (btw I only use this example so not to be offensive to any social groups including travellers ok!)

The culture bit may come into the social group definition though I am not 100% sure about this

seamus

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Thats a business premises and the owner has the right to refuse who he wants.

Within reason. When you're providing a service to the public, you are permitted to refuse service any individual. However if you are refusing service on the basis of one of nine general traits, then that is unlawful.

So if you refuse service to someone because they are;

• Male or female
• Married or unmarried
• With or without children (or pregnant)
• A member of a religion (or not at all)
• Gay or straight
• Young or old
• Disabled (or not)
• Of any particular race, nationality, ethnicity, etc.
• a traveller (or not!)

Then you are in breach of the law. You are perfectly within your rights to refuse service to someone because they're an asshole, but not because they're gay.

There are of course, exceptions around this to allow people to run proper businesses - a 90-year-old man can't demand to take part in a dance class for 3-year-olds. It also allows insurance companies to charge more depending on age & sex.
The general idea is that if you refuse service to person A but not person B, and the only difference between them is one or more of the above items, then you are probably in breach.

looksee

gozunda wrote: »

Irish Travellers are recognised in Britain as an ethnic group. The Republic of Ireland, however, does not recognise them as an ethnic group; rather, their legal status is that of a "social group"

I'm not sure if you are implying a criticism one way or the other, but they would be an ethnic group in Britain, they have a common heritage - being Irish, whereas here Irishness is obviously not a separate grouping.

Permabear

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Finnbar01

The whole notion of travellers' rights is a nonsense.

To give someone these rights you who have to see people not as people, but as groups. Therefore we judge travelling people, based not on their individuality but on the group that they belong to.

I believe, in human rights and see people as individuals, not as a group based on sexuality, sex, skin colour etc.

gcgirl

Eire. wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

Up to 40 yrs ago most working class families were like that, my mum left school at 14, my aunt was 13/14 their other sister was 15, they all left to work in the local factory, while the younger lads were In school, out of 6 kids only 1 sat their leaving cert.
I know quite a few settled travellers and they in courage they're kids to finish school with their leaving cert, I also have found the kids to be better behaved than some other people who think their it.

Yes, my mother and her siblings left school at a young age also, but that was to go out and work as the family was so large that they needed the money to survive. however this is not the case with travellers, they leave school to get married, or claim welfare, the vast majority of them don't work. I know alot of travellers also, and all of them are on the dole.

You can't claim welfare if your 15 and if your 15 and you parents are claiming the dole they need a letter off the school as proof ofyou being in school, you can't get paid child dependent or child benifit without one

RiseToTheTop

I wonder if the Gardaí pulling over Ford Transits is against these peoples right.

If you see a white Ford Transit, a traveller is driving it a lot of times. When I drive I often see the Gardaí pulling them over and checking for their insurance, etc. Isn't this discrimination? Like in the US a cop stopping a male African-American on the street and searching him up and down based upon his sex and race.

Absolam

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

I wonder if the Gardaí pulling over Ford Transits is against these peoples right.

If you see a white Ford Transit, a traveller is driving it a lot of times. When I drive I often see the Gardaí pulling them over and checking for their insurance, etc. Isn't this discrimination? Like in the US a cop stopping a male African-American on the street and searching him up and down based upon his sex and race.

I think it is discrimination; just not illegal discrimination. It seems likely that in the Gardas experience more white Ford Transits are driven without tax and insurance than pink Range Rovers. Therefore she discriminates between the two and mostly pulls over white Ford Transits in order to maximise her chances of catching a criminal.

The Corinthian

Absolam wrote: »

I think it is discrimination; just not illegal discrimination.

This is called 'profiling' and AFAIK it is illegal in the US, but not in Ireland or the UK. It is bad in that it can result in the, often humiliating, harassment or discrimination of innocent people simply because they fall into a certain bracket. This isn't simply limited to police checks, but you'll see it elsewhere, such as in insurance.

On the other hand, 'profiling' can be based upon statistical evidence rather than irrational prejudice. If you're a security guard at an airport, who are you going to pull over to search? A little old lady from Finglas or the guy in full Islamic dress with a beard that would make the boys in ZZ Top jealous? Or as Chris Rock once pointed out "...I am tired of black people blaming the media… saying the media made me do it, but when I am at the ATM machine I am not looking over my shoulder for the media, I am looking for n*****s."

So while I would certainly not condone or wish to see it in most walks of life, I can see where it probably should be acceptable based upon often overwhelming statistical evidence.

gozunda

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

I wonder if the Gardaí pulling over Ford Transits is against these peoples right.

If you see a white Ford Transit, a traveller is driving it a lot of times. When I drive I often see the Gardaí pulling them over and checking for their insurance, etc. Isn't this discrimination? Like in the US a cop stopping a male African-American on the street and searching him up and down based upon his sex and race.

RTTT

Anytime I have been through a VCP - the Gardai have checked everyones insurance / road tax / MOT / NCT - they can see at a glance generaly if you have / havn't (and not just White Ford Transits - WFT's for short ok) without pulling people over

Now if by any chance lets say 10 WFTs out of 20 dont have one or more of the above items then the Gardai have every right to pull them and anyone else who also fail this basic inspection aside for further investigation

This is not discrimination on the behalf of the Gardai - its called doing their job! Its not even profiling tbh! The fact that (perhaps) more WFTs get pulled (maybe) than other vehicles (maybe) would say something about those who tend to drive certain types of vehicles (if that is the case) and their attitude towards the law than the behaviour of the Gardai doing their job..

Personaly I have not seen more WFTs being pulled than other types of vehicles

So while there are entitlements in law in Ireland to certain rights of citizenship etc there is also an obligation on all citizens to obey the laws of the state and that includes not breaking the law or infringing others legal rights - fail to do this and yes some people will get in trouble with the law of the land

Unfortunately it is this type of hyped scenario that gets people yelling 'ya thats discrimination that is'...

Kooli

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I believe, in human rights and see people as individuals, not as a group based on sexuality, sex, skin colour etc.

Based on that statement, I'm going to guess you are a straight, white, hetrosexual man?

Permabear

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zero_hope

Since you have labelled yourself a so called libertarian how can you be opposed to discrimination? Are employers not free to choose with whom they do business with or employ? Likewise should schools not be free to accept pupils using their own arbitrary standards?

Permabear wrote: »

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Permabear

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looksee

Permabear wrote: »

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BUT - the child in the recent case was not refused admission because he was a traveller. He happened to be a traveller who, like a lot of other people, did not get a place in the school. Have we any actual evidence of travellers being refused admission simply because they are travellers in the last few years

Fuinseog

Permabear wrote: »

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most schools have long waiting lists and will give preference to those whose have or had family in the school before. the travellers view this as discrimination and they lost a recent court case against the brothers.

Fuinseog

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

What about travellers rights and public houses? What about rights in these places?

its one thing to talk about these things. its another thing to go into a pub with travellers.
on a practical level a pub that lets in large groups of travellers will not attract country people and business will suffer as a result. I live close to a pub which is a known hangout for travellers and my neighbours and I avoid the place because of the fights that go on there.
I know of a small pub that let in a group of nine travellers, but refused a tenth. it cost the publican 10 grand and ruined him.

watching tv shows gives me the impression that male travellers are scumbags whose sole preoccupation seems to be fighting. they have zero respect for any law other than their own. I have worked with travellers directly and though nice people when you get to know them they always see you as an outsider.

on the subject of intolerance how many gay travellers come out of the closet and are permitted to live among other travellers? frog wards woman married a Nigerian and was ostracised.

greenscene

Cork24 wrote: »

they have the north side of Cork in a dump up by Apple looking out of Apple all you can See is Travelers going up and down in the horse cart.

OMG The north side of cork is a dump anyway, what is wrong with a horse and cart you would swear you could see people shooting up heroin they way your carrying on.

:DI think the apple building is more offensive to look at than a horse and cart

greenscene

Eire. wrote: »

Yes, my mother and her siblings left school at a young age also, but that was to go out and work as the family was so large that they needed the money to survive. however this is not the case with travellers, they leave school to get married, or claim welfare, the vast majority of them don't work. I know alot of travellers also, and all of them are on the dole.

Majority of people are on the dole now anyway!:D

greenscene

Fuinseog wrote: »

its one thing to talk about these things. its another thing to go into a pub with travellers.
on a practical level a pub that lets in large groups of travellers will not attract country people and business will suffer as a result. I live close to a pub which is a known hangout for travellers and my neighbours and I avoid the place because of the fights that go on there.
I know of a small pub that let in a group of nine travellers, but refused a tenth. it cost the publican 10 grand and ruined him.

Same thing could have happened with any group of people..:D

byhookorbycrook

It is not true to say most schools have long waiting lists and also to say that that preference is given to children of past pupils, mainly happens in private schools.

Fuinseog

Permabear wrote: »

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its kind of hard to be a successful student when you spent most of the year travelling around and only attend school in winter.

times are changing and more traveller parents want their kids educated.

looksee

Fuinseog wrote: »

its kind of hard to be a successful student when you spent most of the year travelling around and only attend school in winter.

times are changing and more traveller parents want their kids educated.

Does this imply that one of the rights that travellers seek is to have their children educated? But they do have that right.

They may not have the right to send their children to the one particular school that they decide on, but nor does anyone else.

Some parents have their children baptised, even though that goes against their own beliefs and preferences (read, customs and traditions), just in order to get their children into the local school. They don't have a 'right' to avail of the nearest school, nor do they have a 'right' for schools to be non-religious?

Are travellers looking for the right to only send their children to school when it suits them to stay in one place for a while? Settled parents have an obligation to make sure their children get an education, and can be prosecuted if children do not attend school. It would seem that travellers are looking for the right to not send children to school, except when it suits them, then they should have a right to send them. Which is it?

And yes, some travellers want to send their children to school, and others want to travel, automatically depriving their children of education. They are not all the same and should not be generalised about.

But in that case they cannot claim to be one (ethnic) group with one voice, demanding the same rights. If they want the right to education then they have to stay in one place. If they want the right to travel then, until this country is wealthy enough to send a teacher with each family, they must forgo education.

And if they want one representative body to look for those rights, they have to decide what rights they all want.