other half finance/communication issue

LegacyUser

I am with my girlfriend (and fiance) 4 and half years now, we planned on getting married for a while.
Even though I love her, A few things have come up over time that concern me,
What has kept coming up is, I am aware even though she is working she seems to have a number of credit cards and it has come up from time how she needs to pay them off.
As the wedding has been planned only from last year we were still only deciding a venue till late last year, but we have made no real joint financial plans on anything, I asked her did she need help with her credit card debt and I tried to enquire how much it still is, even though she mentioned the odd time different figures for different cards.
I am concerned she isn't that good with finances and Ive offered to help, but I am really getting worried as I feel she doesnt listen to me when I ask, either fobbing me off, ignoring it or me when i ask or ending up in an argument.
I am being unreasonable to ask, I dont think so, she says I will manage the finances after we are married, but I cant understand how it would not be better if I?We just started doing that now, Im concerned because of the lack of communication she thinks is necessary and because she refuses to talk about it, except her saying that she will deal with it herself.
Is it acceptable for me to ask and know that she doesnt have some serious hidden debt, even if its a large debt and was managed, Id be ok, but I dont know how much it is and she refuses to make joint financial plans, at times saying Im trying to control her, I am seriously worried why these credit card debts have not evaporated since I have known her, I am wondering what it is being spent on? I am beginning to think ridiculous stuff like gambling (which I know is highly unlikely) but why is she unwilling to let me help or even to tell me how much it is or on what?? we are to be married, while I dont expect her to tell me the miuntae of everything that she does or happens her, I am concerned about this and a couple of other things, If she asked me about my credit card and was worried Id show her, she seems unconcerned, even annoyed that I am thinking about it.
What worries me, is there may be no issue, then why does she act so unhelpful about it?
What do I do??????? am I wrong to enquire.

LegacyUser

does anyone have an opinion on this
The above isnt the only issue, part of the whole problem is she doesnt seem to think it's necessary to consult each other on what I would consider even ordinary stuff and more serious stuff, its not that I thought she didnt want to be with me, while I dont think it is necessary to know what someone is doing in a minute by minute account, but there are certain things I think it is not just important but essential that we tell each other.
This doesnt seem to be happening, should I be concerned? or am I being overly worried about this and the above??
If the situations were reversed and it was a woman asking this question and the guy had the debt is it different??

username123

ackack211 wrote: »

What do I do??????? am I wrong to enquire.

No you are not wrong to enquire. Before I got married myself and my husband basically did 'show and tell' with our finances. Its extremely important to do this because once you are married the finances are seen, by revenue, by social welfare, for tax purposes etc as 'joint'. And any major financial decision that you make after marriage (like a mortgage, loans etc..), will be made on the basis of both sets of finances.

If she is not willing to be open with you about her situation I would strongly reconsider getting married until such a time that she is.

Daisy M

No your not wrong and I would think that as your gf is been so cagey there is a lot of debt. If she is defaulting on payments then as a married couple this could have an impact on your credit record and could affect future loan/mortgage applications. Going into a marriage with large debt and not disclosing it to your spouse is unacceptable it doesnt matter if you are male or female. You really need to get a better idea on what her views on money are. You could help her out and clear all debt only for her to rack it back up again. I really dont think there is a need for credit cards these days, visa debits allow the same useage but you must have the funds in your account.

LegacyUser

ackack211 wrote: »

What do I do??????? am I wrong to enquire.

You are certainly not in the wrong for enquiring! She has a cheek to say 'I'll sort it out after we're married'. Of course she will, because at that stage half the debt will be yours!

She obviously hasn't got a clue of the meaning of getting married. There needs to be communication and honesty, otherwise the relationship goes down the drain.

If I were in your position, I would have serious doubts about marrying this girl. She's fobbing you off, she's being evasive, what'll she be like if you ever have to face a really serious problem as a married couple? And you can be sure you WILL face serious problems as a married couple (every couple does), you will need her support, and she will need yours. It would be even worse if the serious problem is of your girlfriend's making. If you marry this girl without sorting out the issue of her spending, you will end up cleaning up after her mess for the rest of your married life. You will be too embarrassed to let people know that your wife can't handle her finances, and you're keeping her. She will carry on fobbing you off because she knows she can get away with it, and you'll sort it out for her.

Is this what you envisaged when you proposed to your girlfriend?

ElleEm

Daisy M wrote: »

No your not wrong and I would think that as your gf is been so cagey there is a lot of debt. If she is defaulting on payments then as a married couple this could have an impact on your credit record and could affect future loan/mortgage applications. Going into a marriage with large debt and not disclosing it to your spouse is unacceptable it doesnt matter if you are male or female. You really need to get a better idea on what her views on money are. You could help her out and clear all debt only for her to rack it back up again. I really dont think there is a need for credit cards these days, visa debits allow the same useage but you must have the funds in your account.

I would believe the part in bold.

Now that you're engaged, things regarding finances need to be out in the open, especially as you will be saving soon.
Discussing how much to save per month can only be done when you understand her exact outgoings.

There is a lot of shame in being in debt, so make her feel at ease and try to be as supportive and non judgemental as you can about it. I do think you need to TELL her that if you're planning on getting married you NEED to know her debts, so I would be making that clear if I was you.

LegacyUser

I know she didnt pay off the min payments in the past on a few cards and she couldnt get another card. That was when I suggested to her to transfer some debt to a low/no interest option with the view to paying that card off in 6 months by concentrating on it and paying the min off the others. She said it wasn't possible as she had missed payments and she couldnt get that option. That was a few years ago, at times she has mentioned when I asked differing amounts for different cards, sometimes higher than previously.
I dont want to even try go down the route of looking for statements to see what the truth is, I want her to volunteer to show me this and I have even said I would help her in as much as I can, even if that only meant advice.
I'm confused by her approach, at one stage she told me she was paying extra money off another loan and making savings (I think it was a credit union) but not making the min payments on her credit card??? which is a way higher interest.I'm frustrated as she cant seem to see sense, I could understand her wanting to have some savings but when you are paying over the odds on a credit card, at the same time she told me she was running out of money and some other direct debit failed to be paid from her bank account.
The secrecy and the fact she told me I am trying to control her annoyed and upset me.
I have not judged her, I would prefer find out it was 20 grand or something insane (ok maybe not more than that) but whatever it is, if it was managed and there was a plan.
At the moment I just dont know how its being dealt with and we are supposed to be planning to pay for a wedding?
I reached the point where I wanted to come on here and ask, what should I do? as its reached a critical point, she refuses to talk about it.
I even asked to go to a relationship counseller to sort out things, (but she refused, she said she would rather walk out then do that, that is something I really do not want her to do) its mostly no communication about what we will do jointly, particularly about finances.

How

Curry Addict

money and communication, the two things that cause the most relationship breakups. your girlfriend is failing on both counts. entering into a marriage on these grounds would be very foolish. your girl friend is clearly not ready for marriage.
if any further talk of getting engaged etc arises i would avoid it and if pushed i would be upfront and honest about her failings.

Chucky the tree

The fact she has debts over multiple credit cards would be a huge worry for me, then her not being 100% honest about the amounts is the icing on the cake. There is no way you should marry her until you know everything about her finances.

LegacyUser

Besides that above,she is very loving to me generally and is generous to people, I have an idea she helped people out in her family, which i dont have a big problem with, but if its on going for ever more I'll be concerned, she has also given money to friends and I have said she should ensure they repay her, whether that has happened or not I am unaware, but the times I knew it happened she said they did. They are the only things I can see where money can evaporate as she doesnt seem to be spending it on anything?? we live together so I'd see it, no lots of new clothes/shoes/we hardly go out, but she has been working since she left school, got professional qualifications and is on good money, but has nothing really to show for it except a not too newish car and from what I can tell a few hefty credit card bills.
From a year knowing her I was aware of some things from what she would say, I tried to offer some advice a few times, but very informally, but felt it may be misconstrued so I certainly didnt press it, then when we were engaged I did offer advice, quite informally in how it would benefit her, Im uncertain how much she has reduced these bills by, she could be dropping all her wages in there for years as they are huge bills or she may be barely making the min payment, I feel as we are planning to get married she should come clean but anytime I have tried to bring it up, she brushes it off or it ends up with her being really annoyed.
I am concerned that if I give her an ultimatum about it(which I dont want to do) she might just walk away, instead of face it.

miec

Hi Op

If I was marrying someone I would want to know their full financial status because their debt becomes my debt. For example I know someone, female in this instance, who married someone who was cagey about their debt / finance, made out they were better of than they were and now that woman is trapped and paying of their huge, huge debts, and is under immense pressure and debt. I believe it is very important to know of each other's money situation before you get married and if she is unwilling to be straight with you on this issue maybe you need to reconsider.

LegacyUser

I reckon your fiancée's got credit card debt. All of her behaviour points to that. When I was younger, I was pretty bad with money and at one stage had two credit cards and a debt of about nine thousand Euros. When you owe that sort of money, clearing it isn't easy. The interest on those cards is phenomenal. Eventually I bit the bullet, got a loan from the credit union to clear it and never looked back

What I do remember from those days is how embarrassed I felt about having run up this debt. I've never told anyone in my own life about having racked up this debt because I'm so ashamed that it happened. Thank God I was single at the time because I know I'd have been freaking out if someone wanted to see my credit card statements.

I'm not sure how exactly to broach the subject but you do need to sit your fiancée down and find out the extent of her debts. Tell her you're not there to judge but to help. As someone has said already, her finances could affect your chances of getting a mortgage or even a car loan. Good luck!

Tigger99

Op id be worried that she threatened to leave rather than go to counselling. How is that open and honest or anyway to start a marriage? What will happen when other problems arise, will she just refuse to discuss them?

ElleEm

Tigger99 wrote: »

Op id be worried that she threatened to leave rather than go to counselling. How is that open and honest or anyway to start a marriage? What will happen when other problems arise, will she just refuse to discuss them?

+1

God, imagine she would rather break up with you than discuss an issue that will affect you both in the longterm? I just can't imagine ever not wanting to discuss something so much with my partner that I would rather break up.

This is a HUGE red flag to me. It's not a mature way to conduct yourself in a relationship.

You cannot allow her to call the shots on this. As other posters said, when you get married, her debt becomes your debt. You have a right to know what her debt amounts up to. It would be incredibly foolish for you to proceed with the engagement to be married if she does not open up about her finances.

P. Breathnach

ackack211 wrote: »

...
I am concerned that if I give her an ultimatum about it(which I dont want to do) she might just walk away, instead of face it.

If you take that position, you could end up in big trouble, and not just about money. You are convinced that there is a problem that she is not dealing with in a satisfactory way, and you sacrifice all your moral authority for the sake of what might be just short-term peace.

It is not unusual for people who get into financial problems to behave unreasonably about them, and often to refuse to admit even to themselves that things are out of control. It might not be good strategy to take a strong leadership line: she might see it as threatening, as another big problem piled on top of other problems. You need to find the right angle of approach - easily said, perhaps not nearly so easy to do.

MariMel

8 yrs ago my friend married a woman with credit card debt and student loan debt from years before they met. He paid off all of it as an engagement present. After 5 years of seemingly happy marriage he finds out that she has a significant number of credit cards with nothing at all to show for them. SOme of them from before they got together that she failed to mention to him when he was paying off the others. His wife had been working but had become a stay at home mum. Anyway....this hidden credit card debt amounted to a staggering €60k!!!!!!!
They were in danger of losing their house because of it. My friend had to remortgage their house and take on extra work. A year after this revelation his wife ups a leaves. Leaving him with the debt and the kids.
Op your financee needs to tell you, be totally honest and upfront with you. As others have said down the line it will seriously impact on your ability to get a mortgage or as in my friends case....potentially lose the house you may already have. Yes your gf will be very embarrassed and maybe even ashamed but their is no way you can go into a marriage blind having no clue whatsoever what lies in store for you.
What happens in the future if you pool resources and that pool empties with nothing to show for it, you have no idea where it went to and your then wife says that she will deal with it but will never tell you details????

LegacyUser

If she tells me of say 3 cards I am aware of, and the debt amounts to whatever amount, how would I ever know if there wasn't other loans or debts that still exist??? or other cards or loans that had atrocious or ignored debt?

ElleEm

ackack211 wrote: »

If she tells me of say 3 cards I am aware of, and the debt amounts to whatever amount, how would I ever know if there wasn't other loans or debts that still exist??? or other cards or loans that had atrocious or ignored debt?

Discuss that with her.

It's a bigger issue if you feel you cannot trust her to tell you the truth.

Maybe tell her you want to sit down to chat about savings and finances for the wedding, so both of you need to bring all your bank statements to the table to go through what's owed and what you can afford to save. You will gauge by her if she is unwilling to show the statements after telling you how much debt she is in.

LegacyUser

We spoke about it today, we have had a few arguments recently about it, I have been trying to get her to come forward with the info to me, but she was trying to put it off to another day, not just today, but that is how it has always been moved to another time in the future. I pressed her to tell me despite not wanting to push her, I feel I cannot make any plans from now until I know whats going on.
I told her I'm not going to bale out if she tells me some shocking figure but I need to know. I've been imagining horrendous debt so no matter what she comes clean with, I think i will be prepared for the worst. Told her all I can do is help her manage it better.
Eventually she started revealing some things about her debt, she was a bit upset. From what she has said I feel she has tried to manage her debt but its just not her forte and she seems to be making very slow or no progress clearing it.
I am yet to see some account statements but I am starting to wonder if I will be shown the tip of the ice berg, so am wondering how could I get her to verify to me that she doesnt have other outstanding debts unrevealed?
I was thinking of asking her to get a credit report (it sounds cold) maybe suggesting it on the basis to make sure there are no anomalous debts she has forgotten that are crucifying her credit rating, as she has lived at a number of addresses. I only thought of this now after reading a few of the replies.
I dont feel she is being deceitful but I wish she listened to my advice about this years ago, she may have made some headway, Im a bit unhappy she didnt take my advice years ago or let me help guide her through it, but I love her.
I'm wary of paying any debt off as I dont have much myself.
I am coming to the realisation that, if I feel there isn't complete openness from her it may sour our relationship and our future.

ElleEm

ackack211 wrote: »

We spoke about it today, we have had a few arguments recently about it, I have been trying to get her to come forward with the info to me, but she was trying to put it off to another day, not just today, but that is how it has always been moved to another time in the future. I pressed her to tell me despite not wanting to push her, I feel I cannot make any plans from now until I know whats going on.
I told her I'm not going to bale out if she tells me some shocking figure but I need to know. I've been imagining horrendous debt so no matter what she comes clean with, I think i will be prepared for the worst. Told her all I can do is help her manage it better.
Eventually she started revealing some things about her debt, she was a bit upset. From what she has said I feel she has tried to manage her debt but its just not her forte and she seems to be making very slow or no progress clearing it.
I am yet to see some account statements but I am starting to wonder if I will be shown the tip of the ice berg, so am wondering how could I get her to verify to me that she doesnt have other outstanding debts unrevealed?
I was thinking of asking her to get a credit report (it sounds cold) maybe suggesting it on the basis to make sure there are no anomalous debts she has forgotten that are crucifying her credit rating, as she has lived at a number of addresses. I only thought of this now after reading a few of the replies.
I dont feel she is being deceitful but I wish she listened to my advice about this years ago, she may have made some headway, Im a bit unhappy she didnt take my advice years ago or let me help guide her through it, but I love her.
I'm wary of paying any debt off as I dont have much myself.
I am coming to the realisation that, if I feel there isn't complete openness from her it may sour our relationship and our future.

You sound very "with it" and supportive.
You have handled this situation as best as you can, so just continue to be honest with her about your feelings and hope that she will reciprocate.
Hopefully she is just gearing herself up for the big reveal.

P. Breathnach

Now that you have the question on the table, and she seems to acknowledge that there is a problem, stand back a bit (I have the impression that this stuff is not really your forté either). Try to get her to engage with MABS: http://www.mabs.ie/.

LegacyUser

you mean like a frying pan across the head?
I shouldnt joke,
If I find out the details, I do plan to approach MABS with her.
will see how it goes.

sam34

op, you can get a credit check on her through the Irish credit bureau. I think it costs about €6. anyone can get one on anyone else, it's perfectly legal, think you just need details like dob and address.

she might accuse you of going behind her back etc, but I think it's info you have a right to know as it will affect you if ye marry

LegacyUser

Id prefer to say to her to get the credit report (even if Im there when she applies) rather than just going ahead and doing it myself without her knowledge, even though I could probably get the details necessary, I am not 100% certain if its allowed that someone else (an individual) could access another persons credit rating.
I appreciate the input, but as I am asking her to not keep financial details from me, I cant then go behind her back to access that information, if she doesnt want to show me, then I guess that will take us down a different direction, namely postponing any future arrangements.

LegacyUser

I feel I should give a response/outcome to those that offered advice.
I told her that it has been put off long enough and while I didnt want to give an ultimatum, if we were to have any future then she would need to come clean with me about everything.
I thought things were going quite well and I was finding out about debts, wasn't acting shocked,ringing the debt holders with her, contacting MABS, asking advice. They aren't great but not as horrific as they might have been, some being attended to others left with min payments or payment freezes, but all in not good.
After that initial success, I was asking her to make plans about what her spending is and what she needs and how to repay the debt, she turned to accusing me of trying to control her, to crying, I feel sick and exhausted and I feel betrayed, I gave her advice about this years ago but didnt want to interfere too much, and she clearly didnt heed me. 2 years ago I suggested a plan, now she is backing away again.
I feel like I am living with someone with a drink or gambling problem in denial and remonstrating their own innocence.
When I was told I am doing this for me, when I am doing this for both of us, I feel that is it, no matter how much she comes around to the idea she doesnt want to face up or deal with the problem, I'm certainly not taking the blame.
I dont think I even care anymore, I'm annoyed at her for making me feel that way. She should have told me this when we began to make plans, I feel like an idiot, have wasted too much time with this, cant continue like this for it to be continually put off or blame directed at me, being married wont make it better or easier. I have a mortgage and a house.
I am beginning to think foolish stuff like, this is what she wants, sabotage us. I'm exhausted.

P. Breathnach

ackack211 wrote: »

...
After that initial success, I was asking her to make plans about what her spending is and what she needs and how to repay the debt, she turned to accusing me of trying to control her, to crying, I feel sick and exhausted and I feel betrayed....

Pause a moment. It looks like you have made fantastic progress. She has been in a financial mess for some time and, I gather, in denial. She has probably experienced a lot of anxiety, and been repressing it. You and she are not going to fix everything in a couple of days. She probably needs a bit of space for emotional reactions as you both work through things. The practical measures are easier than dealing with the emotions.

Take a time out: just do something else for a few hours, perhaps even a day or two. Come back to the problem when you are both in a better mental place.

username123

ackack211 wrote: »

I feel like I am living with someone with a drink or gambling problem in denial and remonstrating their own innocence.

Well thats exactly what is happening. She clearly has financial issues. Her behaviour would suggest that this is not all clear cut and easy to deal with and that she has emotional issues about it all.

Its one thing being willing to help your partner out of debt, but its quite another if they wont even engage with you constructively. Personally Id be backing off until she re-assesses her behaviour on this. Im sorry if thats not what you want to hear but you could lose your home and savings to someone who behaves this way and hiding debt, becoming enraged at a discussion about it etc... its not healthy.

Daisy M

I would think shes scared. Scared of admitting she really is in a mess, scared of what it will take to get out of debt, scared of the control you may try and exert over her finances, scared of living without credit and really really scared of having a huge lifestyle change. She has to agree that you tackle this issue together. There is no point in you referring to the advice you gave her 2 yrs ago its only reinforcing how stupid she has been. I would leave the ball in her court either she agrees to you tackling these problems together with total honesty from her or ye put the wedding on hold. Its one thing you choosing to marry her knowing all of the debt its another marrying someone riddled with debt doing nothing about it and who given the ability would rack up even more.

LegacyUser

I didnt use the 2 year thing as a stick to beat her failure with, knew that would only push her further away, but did say that had she had a plan she might (should) have been debt free and have savings, rather than being further in debt, so now is the time to make one so it doesnt go on for what could approach over half (more than half) a decade. I said that I think if she has a plan to tackle the worst debt mostly first, where possible and then everything after, then in 2 years could come out with maybe some savings and no unsecured/expensive debt. She admitted she requested her credit card limit be reduced on one card in the past as she felt she would end up spending up to that point, which I'm happy she did but I'm astonished, if not horrified at the thought of that, spending to the limit because it is there?? so in fairness she knew she needed help and it was out of hand and she did try maintain most payments but failing to make them at other times, I cant understand how someone in debt would even carry cards at their limit on their person, if they are that tempted.
It seems to me she maxed out debt in one place and moved on to make more debt on another card and so on, then living month to month and paying the interest and fees. I am horrified at the rate on a personal loan, the rate was so high.
Its not the amount anymore, I'm annoyed how she treated my previously quite discreet offers of advice and then failed on her own and badly, and that I feel she has deceived me so much.
I never wanted to be in control of her finances but I can see unless I have total control she will lose the plot financially and just throw money away somehow, Im not sure I want that for the rest of my life, feeling like I have to watch her like a hawk or worrying that she works up another secret debt. Regarding the marriage, I wouldn't care about the debt, if it was managed but it has gone out of control because it was ignored/mismanaged. I cant understand it, Im not happy but I think even the budget wedding we planned is off, it needs to be, just dont know how she thought we were going to pay for it.

Chucky the tree

For me this person seems to have to many red flags to even consider marraige at the moment and I'd certainly but putting it off into the distant future. At the very least I'd expect her to see a councillor or something, maybe even GA meetings although I'm not sure if they would take her. At this stage though due to the way she has acted I'd just end it.

username123

ackack211 wrote: »

She admitted she requested her credit card limit be reduced on one card in the past as she felt she would end up spending up to that point, which I'm happy she did but I'm astonished, if not horrified at the thought of that, spending to the limit because it is there??

You see this is where you differ from people who cannot manage money. I feel the same way as you. Im a saver, I cant bear having debt, Id rather go without for ages to save for a thing than borrow for it.
But loads of people in the world do not think this way. I admit, I do not understand how they think, but I know its not how I think. You need to accept that. What you find horrifying is normal to some people. Sad but true.

ackack211 wrote: »

Im not sure I want that for the rest of my life, feeling like I have to watch her like a hawk or worrying that she works up another secret debt.

You see the issue here is that you cannot live someone elses life for them. Its not dissimilar to someone with a drug or drink problem. The only way forward would be for trust to be gained back and a show that efforts are being made to be disciplined with money. Unfortunately you will always worry that this person is hiding debt. What it would really take would be for your gf to be the one to stand up and say, 'I have a problem, I am trying to address it, please help/advise' and going forward for her to consult with you periodically about the state of affairs and to be completely transparent with financial dealings - its a lot of minding of a person isnt it? Do you really want that?

ackack211 wrote: »

I cant understand it, Im not happy but I think even the budget wedding we planned is off, it needs to be, just dont know how she thought we were going to pay for it.

Again, people with this attitude to money dont ever think that they cant afford something or consider how they are going to pay for it. Credit pays for it in the immediate present and the future can be worried about tomorrow. With such vastly different financial value systems I dont know how compatible you two would be long term anyway, one of the commonest rows in marriages is money - you need to be on the same page to make it work and what you have just gone through would indicate that you are not. Its not like she came to you of her own accord, she was basically forced into admission of the problem.

I personally would also be of the opinion that if someone is capable of deceit in one area of life then they may also be capable of it in other areas also. Im not suggesting your gf is deceiving you in other areas but that would be my worry.

Im sorry you are finding all this out now, but its best that this has all come out before you are married, if it was afterwards you would be rightly stuck.