The Tactics thread

profitius

I thought we need a tactics thread to discuss tactics in the news eg 7's, kicking too much, blitz vs passive defense, good scrummaging prop vs good around the park, kicking 10 vs running 10, big centers, size vs skill, risky vs conservative rugby, northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere etc..

First up heres an article about Kidneys style of play. Its 10 man rugby in disguise. The kicking away of the ball all the time is inefficient and brainless IMO. Most people would agree that the team is underperforming and they look a little confused.

http://dementedmole.com/2012/03/01/territorial-army/


Heres some Aussies backline moves. Notice the quick hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcxl62kC_Ws

danthefan

Good god, we kicked 32 times against Wales apparently. I did not know that.

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Good god, we kicked 32 times against Wales apparently. I did not know that.

What was that number in the 6 nations last year again? It was something absolutely ridiculous. I'll have to check the match thread.

GerM

Some lovely quick hands there from the Aussies in the Ella era but if you look back at the Irish back line of the same era they had some fantastic quick hands. Paul Dean, Brendan Mullin, Hugo MacNeill conjured some fantastic stuff. The tries in the 1985 Triple Crown were magical.

The Aussies for a large part of the 1998-2008 section there were hugely dependent on Larkham who is the best 10 I've watched. His flat pass was in a world of its own in terms of quality. I could watch him for hours on end just taking it flat and passing the ball.

We're certainly not void of producing back line talent or back line moves in this country, it's simply the current selection and tactics that isn't helping.

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What was that number in the 6 nations last year again? It was something absolutely ridiculous. I'll have to check the match thread.

46 according to scrum.com.

leftleg

some of those moves from wallabies look like stuff that EOS had Ireland doing in 2006; all of set piece flat ball with quick hands and lots of dummy runners....ahh them days

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

Good god, we kicked 32 times against Wales apparently. I did not know that.

we obviously didn't kick enough. In france's win over wales in the world cup, france kicked 43 times.

and Wales kicked 33 times

edit: in the world cup final.

Nz=32
France=27

while I'm at it:

Ireland v wales in the world cup

wales=34
Ireland=30

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

we obviously didn't kick enough. In france's win over wales in the world cup, france kicked 43 times.

and Wales kicked 33 times

edit: in the world cup final.

Nz=32
France=27

Are you trying to excuse Kidneys failing tactics of leathering the ball for the whole game??

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

we obviously didn't kick enough. In france's win over wales in the world cup, france kicked 43 times.

and Wales kicked 33 times

edit: in the world cup final.

Nz=32
France=27

So you think kicking the ball away that many times was the right way to go?

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

Are you trying to excuse Kidneys failing tactics of leathering the ball for the whole game??

This thread is about tactics. It would seem that Ireland kicking tactic is not that different to everyone elses.

Note I just added the kicking stats for the world cup game between ireland and wales.

wales=34
ireland=30

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

Are you trying to excuse Kidneys failing tactics of leathering the ball for the whole game??

This thread is about tactics. It would seem that Ireland kicking tactic is not that different to everyone elses.

Note I just added the kicking stats for the world cup game between ireland and wales.

wales=34
ireland=30

Good man

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

So you think kicking the ball away that many times was the right way to go?

It depends on your definition of what leathering the ball is. And how many times is the right number.

think its useful to get a few averages from other successful teams.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

It depends on your definition of what leathering the ball is. And how many times is the right number.

think its useful to get a few averages from other successful teams.

It's more than that, it's what you did with the kick, and how you base the gameplan.

We kicked after running out of ideas, and when we kicked it was aimless.

irishbucsfan

I remember there was an excellent article about it after the 6N game last year. About how we kicked over half our possession away in the first couple of phases and they ran 75% of theirs or something.

Saying that I thought we were both muck that day. But the same proportional ineptitude blighted our quarter final. Also Murray/ROG of course.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

It's more than that, it's what you did with the kick, and how you base the gameplan.

We kicked after running out of ideas, and when we kicked it was aimless.

In the last two games, sexton did most of the kicking which probably wasn't really aimless. I think a lot of the time it might look aimless, but they might not want a line out/quick throw in just turn the team around.

profitius

What some of the top teams do is they'll take it through a few phases before kicking. They'll wait until the opposition are out of position and then kick. Ireland just kick it straight away right into the hands of the opposition.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I remember there was an excellent article about it after the 6N game last year. About how we kicked over half our possession away in the first couple of phases and they ran 75% of theirs or something.

Saying that I thought we were both muck that day. But the same proportional ineptitude blighted our quarter final. Also Murray/ROG of course.

comparing rog & sexton in the last two wales games,

rog q/f = 7 times / murray = 4
sexton 6n = 15 times / murray = 7

jm08

profitius wrote: »

What some of the top teams do is they'll take it through a few phases before kicking. They'll wait until the opposition are out of position and then kick. Ireland just kick it straight away right into the hands of the opposition.

So its a skill thing then . players not good enough ? can you coach spacial awareness?

profitius

jm08 wrote: »

So its a skill thing then . players not good enough ? can you coach spacial awareness?

Its a bit of everything. Look at Nacewa for example. Hes a 'heads up' player. He plays whats in front of him and if theres a good opportunity to kick the ball in behind the opposition, he has the skill to kick it.

tolosenc

jm08 wrote: »

So its a skill thing then . players not good enough ? can you coach spacial awareness?

Missing the point by some distance.

It's nothing to do with skill. He said that we kick on first phase, whereas others hold it for longer before kicking.

More accurate stats to look at would be posession kicked divided by number of phases. Ireland will be a lot closer to 1 than almost any other team.

leftleg

tolosenc wrote: »

More accurate stats to look at would be posession kicked divided by number of phases. Ireland will be a lot closer to 1 than almost any other team.

Or matches lost under the present coaching ticket

jm08

tolosenc wrote: »

Missing the point by some distance.

It's nothing to do with skill. He said that we kick on first phase, whereas others hold it for longer before kicking.

More accurate stats to look at would be posession kicked divided by number of phases. Ireland will be a lot closer to 1 than almost any other team.

i'm asking a question. isit a skill thing/awareness thing when/where to kick or run? can that be coached , or should it be needed coach at this level?

jm08

profitius wrote: »

Its a bit of everything. Look at Nacewa for example. Hes a 'heads up' player. He plays whats in front of him and if theres a good opportunity to kick the ball in behind the opposition, he has the skill to kick it.

brian o'driscoll is handy enough as well at that . Luke & earls not bad either. bowe, trimble or d'arcy don't have good kicking games.

Leinster7

Kicking tactically in order to regain posession in a better position or a more attack worthy position is very different from kicking for territory which is DK's outdated tactic.

irishbucsfan

Kicking for territory does still work. Munster/Northampton 2010 was a masterclass of territorial kicking. You just need a 10 capable of it and you need to be enough of a threat with the ball in hand to draw the opposition and create space. Ireland don't but still try it and end up losing far too regularly for a team of their calibre.


But here's a thought: If Kidney loses his job, he could probably do a hell of a job with Connacht and Dan Parks!