Woman to be sentenced for neglect of children

Gilldog

A 34-year-old mother is to be sentenced today for the "huge" neglect of her five children who were described in court as being underfed, filthy and without toilet training.

The woman, who cannot be named to protect the children's identity, pleaded guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to 10 counts of neglecting the children from May 2005 until September 2007 .

The court heard all five children have been left with severe and long-term psychological difficulties.

After they were taken into care in 2007, one of the children ate incessantly until he vomited and none of them knew how to use a toilet, wash themselves or when to change their clothing.

The children were described as gulping down food and shoving their dinner into their mouths with their hands, while the youngest boy struggled to breathe while he ate.

The eldest boy now lives in a specialised unit in the UK and has been assessed as unable to live with other children.

The women is to be sentenced today while her husband is currently serving 12 years for raping one of his daughters, and has previous convictions for neglect and physical abuse of his children.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/woman-to-be-sentenced-for-neglect-of-children-541778.html




This is so sad. When are people going to accept that there are some people who should not be allowed to bring children into the world.

esharknz

I agree. Those kids lives appear to be ruined due to the actions of their parents. No child deserves this sort of treatment.

It's beyond me why they had children in the first place if they weren't willing to give them a loving home.

Abi

This got a mention in one of the papers earlier in the week, horrific doesn't cover it. Just because you can have children it doesn't mean you should. Those children didn't ask to be born into a life like that

I couldn't even finish reading it, it was so upsetting. Throw the damn book at her, and as for the father.. they never stood a chance, god love them.

Gilldog

I just don't understand why she was allowed to continue to have more and more children when she couldn't demonstrate even being able to care properly for one. I know people may disagree with me on this but I feel this is one woman who should have been court ordered to stop having any more children that she refused to care for.

You wonder where the social care workers were when all this was happening. Or their neighbours, somebody must have noticed.

Even sadder is that this pathetic excuse for a mother will probably get a light sentence and then be out in a few years for good behaviour! Where was her 'good behaviour' when her children were being abused and neglected. What is to stop her from having more children when she gets out.

Disgusted!

silly

Hopefully those kids will never have to set eyes on her again, with any luck they will be too young to remember the horrific details of their first few years of life with that witch of a woman.

MissFlitworth

Gilldog wrote: »

I just don't understand why she was allowed to continue to have more and more children when she couldn't demonstrate even being able to care properly for one. I know people may disagree with me on this but I feel this is one woman who should have been court ordered to stop having any more children that she refused to care for.

How though? Are you talking about sterilising her? That's a slippery slope to move down. I 100% agree that she shouldn't have been allowed to keep any of her children and there are people out there who should not be allowed to keep children but when you start forcibly sterilising people you move towards being a China or a Puerto Rico & that's pure scary

Ayla

Gilldog wrote: »

You wonder where the social care workers were when all this was happening. Or their neighbours, somebody must have noticed.

Social workers only call out if there's a complaint registered against the parents. Presumably, if they didn't call out, then no one knew about it. Obviously, we don't know where this family lived, but they could have been rural so had no neighbors. But even if they were right smack in the middle of a city, if the kids didn't even know how to use a toilet & were hardly fed, then it's easy to imagine they didn't have much of a presence in the neighborhood...if they never left the house no one would know there was anything to notice.

Sad, really.

neuro-praxis

You've got to ask yourself in these cases what on earth kind of upbringing did that father and mother themselves receive, to have turned out so abysmally. Often in these kinds of cases you find that the parents received a similar treatment, or that one or both have learning difficulties, or suffer severe mental illness themselves. Poverty and drug and alcohol addiction are likely to play a role, too.

I'm not making excuses for how this could happen: just suggesting possible reasons.

Dolbert

It's such a horrific story. Her own story is terribly sad, she was abducted at 14 and then married her captor at 18 (who by all accounts is convicted child abuser). It looks like those children never stood a chance.

MissFlitworth

It really is such an awful, upsetting story. You can see where it's all set up & ready to repeat itself

The eldest boy now lives in a specialised unit in the UK and has been assessed as unable to live with other children.

Hopefully the kids will get the help that they need so that the cycle of abuse is broken. Some people really do live in pure hell on earth

Malari

It's terribly sad. Such a waste of a life for these kids.

esharknz wrote: »

It's beyond me why they had children in the first place if they weren't willing to give them a loving home.

I just don't think they thought that much about having children. I doubt they were planned and I doubt she thought that much about whether she would be in a position to care for them.

fatmammycat

MissFlitworth wrote: »

It really is such an awful, upsetting story. You can see where it's all set up & ready to repeat itself



Hopefully the kids will get the help that they need so that the cycle of abuse is broken. Some people really do live in pure hell on earth

God that's heartbreaking, poor child.

Gilldog

MissFlitworth wrote: »

How though? Are you talking about sterilising her? That's a slippery slope to move down. I 100% agree that she shouldn't have been allowed to keep any of her children and there are people out there who should not be allowed to keep children but when you start forcibly sterilising people you move towards being a China or a Puerto Rico & that's pure scary

No, I certainly would'nt be in favour of forced sterilisation, or any absolute control of womens bodies, and you're right - it is a slippery slope. It is perhaps interesting that this story is in the news at the same time that the abortion issue raises its head yet again.

It just angers me to think there are people out there (more than we would like to think) who are simply able to have more and more children that they are unable or unwilling to take care of. A seemingly endless supply of victims.

LegacyUser

Gilldog wrote: »

No, I certainly would'nt be in favour of forced sterilisation, or any absolute control of womens bodies, and you're right - it is a slippery slope. It is perhaps interesting that this story is in the news at the same time that the abortion issue raises its head yet again.

A focus on better sex education, better access to birth control and access to abortion services rather then forced sterillsations. It's not something that has an easy fix option, it would take a combination of improvements in all the above areas along with improvements with how social services are trained and deal with these cases.

As a short term measure I would favor would be some forum of birth control similar to chemical castration of sex offenders. She has proven she is a danger to kids so maybe getting an implant like Implanon that can last up to 3 years, but not leave her unable to have kids in the future, is a middle ground between no control and total control of her reproductive rights. [of course assuming it's medically safe for her to take it] There are of course still Ethical issues but it doesn't need to be something that's forced but offered as part of her release from prison.

LittleBook

Gilldog wrote: »

It just angers me to think there are people out there (more than we would like to think) who are simply able to have more and more children that they are unable or unwilling to take care of. A seemingly endless supply of victims.

I hear ya Gilldog. Things like this always remind me of that famous line from Parenthood ... "You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming @sshole be a father" ... or a mother in this case.

If some people only had to do something as simple as stroll down to the local health centre and fill in a form (not even an application that could be denied, just a form), a lot of situations like this could be avoided. Pure sci-fi wishful thinking on my part obviously.

Actually, the thing that irritates me more is that even if a woman like this wanted to be sterilised, it's so difficult in this country and expensive that she wouldn't even bother.

Morag

This is the kilkenny case, the family has social workers assigned time and again but due to social workers leaving or being moved the files got lost. The supervisor for the area should be up on charges as well.

LittleBook

More on this

The children’s 34-year-old mother, who cannot be named to protect the children’s identity, pleaded guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to 10 counts of neglecting the children between May 2005 and September 2007.

Her husband (44) has already been convicted of neglect of children and sexual abuse and rape of a young girl by a Central Criminal Court jury. He has also a further conviction of sexual assault of an eight-year-old girl from the UK.

One of the man’s previous convictions included the abduction of this woman (the defendant) in England when she was just 14 years old. The couple married days after her 18th birthday.

Speechless.

Ayla

OMG...news just in:

She pleaded guilty to 10 counts of messing up her 5 kid's lives, and you know what she was just given?:

4 yrs, with the last 2.5 years suspended. She'll have 18 months behind bars :eek: :mad:

Bubblefett

Ayla wrote: »

OMG...news just in:

She pleaded guilty to 10 counts of messing up her 5 kid's lives, and you know what she was just given?:

4 yrs, with the last 2.5 years suspended. She'll have 18 months behind bars :eek: :mad:

Not nearly long enough when you consider the 5 lives she's ruined. I feel heart broken for the eldest who was unable to live with other children- what was she doing with those kids?
And I can't believe about her husband.
Hopefully the kids will be able to move on from this. I hope she never gets to contact them again.

rainbow kirby

Maple wrote: »

Jesus Christ.

Words fail me.

My thoughts exactly.

Maple

Ayla wrote: »

OMG...news just in:

She pleaded guilty to 10 counts of messing up her 5 kid's lives, and you know what she was just given?:

4 yrs, with the last 2.5 years suspended. She'll have 18 months behind bars :eek: :mad:

Jesus Christ.

Words fail me.

amacachi

Sharrow wrote: »

This is the kilkenny case, the family has social workers assigned time and again but due to social workers leaving or being moved the files got lost. The supervisor for the area should be up on charges as well.

Organisations like that are structured so that no-one has responsibility for anything. Eventually someone at the top may fall only to walk into another job immediately.


How long has she been in custody? Could be out before the end of this month. Unbelievable stuff.

neuro-praxis

Ok. Sometimes what we fail to remember here is that in Ireland we are committed to restorative justice. This woman is not a danger to the general public. She is an unfit mother, probably with very complex reasons.

Women do not generally recover from their time in prison as easily as men do.

Do not freak out about this sentencing. This woman may well have 18 months of intensive therapy. She will never get her children back, but she may be able to be restored to some semblance of a human being, as hopefully will her children. Let's not forget that state care is often a far worse and more dangerous place for Irish children than even being with their dreadful parents.

I agree that the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime but let's not forget that we do not know the details of this woman's mental state. Her responsibility is altered by the conditions of her life before she committed these crimes. For all we know, each child was the product of rape.

Compassion is the only answer. Anger is appropriate, but it doesn't help.

neuro-praxis

Oh and a PS - suspended sentences are only granted if the prisoner complies perfectly with what is required of them in prison.

Let's not forget that prison time ends, but the sentence goes on - poverty, social exclusion, public abuse, attacks on accommodation, pursual by the media, rejection by family etc. - these are all long-term consequences of crime too. It's not like she will skip out of prison like a spring lamb, get a nice job, meet a nice man and live happily ever after. She has probably known horrors we can only imagine in our worst nightmares.

Ayla

Although I agree to a point neuro-praxis, let us also be mindful of the fact that (in all likelihood) she has absolutely destroyed the lives of 5 innocent children, who at ages 2-9 are all (unfortunately) able to remember what they've had to endure.

According to the news report I heard on Today FM today, the judge stated that she has had an unfortunate past, but he found no reason to believe that she was not fully aware of the consequences of her (in)actions.

neuro-praxis

Ayla wrote: »

Although I agree to a point neuro-praxis, let us also be mindful of the fact that (in all likelihood) she has absolutely destroyed the lives of 5 innocent children, who at ages 2-9 are all (unfortunately) able to remember what they've had to endure.

I agree with you.

But what is our aim - to punish the mother, or to see her and her children restored from what has been a fairly insane reality since this woman was herself 14? My hope would be that she is restored via her punishment.

Also she did not commit this crime single handed.

Ayla

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Also she did not commit this crime single handed.

True, the co-offender (ie: the husband) is serving 12 years for rape/abuse/neglect. Obviously those are henious crimes, but I would be of the mindset that what she did should be weighted on a similar scale. IMO, 18 months is a slap on the wrist...why would the law come down so severely on the father yet glaze over the mother (who, presumably was also the main carer)? Surely even if her own life was a living hell she had a duty to provide the opportunity for her children to learn how to do something as basic as eat.

neuro-praxis

Ayla wrote: »

...why would the law come down so severely on the father yet glaze over the mother (who, presumably was also the main carer)?

I dunno; that's my point.

I take your point but this isn't glazing: the mother has had all five children removed from her (and rightly so) and been given a 4 year prison sentence.

Remember, the law is also based on precedent. How long she gets for "neglect" is dependent on how long has been given for neglect previously.

Morag

She was abducted at 14 and has spent the rest of her life in an abusive relationship and became an alcoholic. It seems to be an extreme case of Stockholm Syndrome she is a victim, she couldn't care for herself or the kids. Yes she should have tried but her life was a living nightmare which she will have to come with terms with for the rest of her life.

Once she gets help and knows that there are other ways to live life and how they were living was not normal, she may never recover from what she permitted to happen.

Dojito

I agree with you there. The so called parents are pure scum but you would think a teacher would spot that kind of abuse and if the kids didn't get to school, then social services should be on top of them like a ton of bricks.

The poor kids! But all of the blame does not rest with the parents. This should have been stopped before so much damage was done!

Dojito

Sharrow wrote: »

She was abducted at 14 and has spent the rest of her life in an abusive relationship and became an alcoholic. It seems to be an extreme case of Stockholm Syndrome she is a victim, she could care for herself or the kids. Yes she should have tried but her life was a living nightmare which she will have to come with terms with for the rest of her life.

Once she gets help and knows that there are other ways to live life and how they were living was not normal, she may never recover from what she permitted to happen.

So are you trying to say that she will make a great mother some day or something???

Morag

Dojito wrote: »

So are you trying to say that she will make a great mother some day or something???

Nope I am saying that she may get the help and therapy she needs and figure out just how fúcked up her life was and how fúcked up she let her kids lives become and live with the guilt and remorse for the rest of her life, if she can stand it. That is a life sentence.

The husband on the other hand has had sex with at 3 under age girls, the woman who went on to be his wife, his daughter and one other,
it is unlikely he will be remorseful and there is a greater risk of him offending again.

Ayla

I don't think that's what Sharrow was saying at all.

Just heard another report on the radio: the family moved frequently, used an alias name, and the kids almost never went to school. The parents, therefore, knew what they were doing. Even the judge noted (as I said here before) that the mother's horrific past does not excuse her (in)actions toward her children and that she knew rightly what she was/was not doing.

Personally, I feel some sorrow for the woman, but what she allowed to happen to her children as she stood passively by and/or actively allowed to happen...I'm afraid that flares up my parental protective nature and I am enraged for the poor children who were never given a chance.

Ickle Magoo

I'd have to agree with neuro-praxis - the vast majority of neglect cases are linked to undiagnosed/untreated mental health issues, substance abuse, lack of parenting skills and lack of education/ability to learn those skills, etc, etc. I assume if the mother was purely acting out sociopathic sadomasochist tendencies, then the sentence would have reflected that.

The bottom line is, it's not just the parents to blame here - yes, they failed in their basic duty of care to their children but there are supposed to be numerous safety-nets in place so that children never get to the stage of having to suffer systemic abuse or neglect - and for a case such as this one to occur, all of those must fail too.

Malari wrote: »

It's terribly sad. Such a waste of a life for these kids.

Don't write them off just yet - as one of several siblings all forcibly removed from our birth parents due to severe neglect - I'd hope they'll do just fine.

sambuka41

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Also she did not commit this crime single handed.

Is the father in prison for abusing one of the 5 children? Because if thats the case then its shocking that the children weren't taken into care at this point? Also why weren't these kids in school, or why wasn't the school notifying the social work/ Gardai?

A lot of questions to be answered but I think that the state services fell down here too. But I agree neuro-praxis some of the state care is not any better, I have worked with children in state care and they have had horrific incidents in their foster placements So there is no guarantee that they are better off now. We have little or no intensive psychological placements here which is probably why the eldest is in the UK getting help.

Ayla

sambuka41 wrote: »

Also why weren't these kids in school, or why wasn't the school notifying the social work/ Gardai? A lot of questions to be answered but I think that the state services fell down here too.

As I mentioned earlier, the parents frequently moved all around the country. They also changed names & lived under aliases. They didn't send their kids to school with any sort of regularity.

So, tell me, if parents up & vanish in the night, change their identities and don't mingle with anyone, how exactly is this in any way the system's fault? They can't be tracked, they have no way of being found. Even more, according to the court report I heard today, they weren't even claiming any sort of state benefit, so as far as the state was concerned they hardly existed. It is very easy to live under the radar if you really want to (which clearly these folks did)

Ickle Magoo

According to the article they had two aliases...it also reports

...one of the children ate incessantly until he vomited and none of them knew how to use a toilet, wash themselves or when to change their clothing.

The children were described as gulping down food and shoving their dinner into their mouths with their hands. The youngest boy could not breathe while he ate.

All the foster parents reported that the children would defecate and urinate in inappropriate places, like a bucket, and the second oldest boy would stuff his underpants with tissue paper.

Not sure how something was not picked up on in the times they did attend school if that was common behaviour...

It seems the judge agrees, stating:

He described it as “a particularly sad case” and that the five children had been “neglected to the point of cruelty over a substantial period of time”.

He said the evidence in the case “demonstrated that fact beyond a reasonable doubt” and “anyone who encountered these children, anyone with a modicum of common sense and insight would have known this,” the judge commented.

That's fairly damning - and he knows all the facts of the case.

Abi

Why were they constantly moving around? Is it so nobody would know them long enough to start asking questions, or was there another reason for this? If it was the former then they knew that they had something to hide, a conscienciousness of their guilt.

My heart just breaks for those kids. They should have been living happy, healthy little lives, having friends and most importantly just to feel loved. I'm so sad for them

Blush_01

sambuka41 wrote: »

Is the father in prison for abusing one of the 5 children? Because if thats the case then its shocking that the children weren't taken into care at this point? Also why weren't these kids in school, or why wasn't the school notifying the social work/ Gardai?

A lot of questions to be answered but I think that the state services fell down here too. But I agree neuro-praxis some of the state care is not any better, I have worked with children in state care and they have had horrific incidents in their foster placements So there is no guarantee that they are better off now. We have little or no intensive psychological placements here which is probably why the eldest is in the UK getting help.

That assumes that a) the children weren't taken at the time of the father's arrest, and the charges brought against the mother as a result, or b) that without the father's influence to maintain the behaviour that they as a family were used to the mother cracked, and that's how the case finally came to light in its totality. The father was sentenced to 12 years in prison - when was he convicted?

None of these things are cut and dried - much as we might like to immediately label someone as being "x" and condemn them.

LittleBook

Abi wrote: »

Why were they constantly moving around? Is it so nobody would know them long enough to start asking questions, or was there another reason for this? If it was the former then they knew that they had something to hide, a conscienciousness of their guilt.

Based on what little we know about the background to the case, it appears to me to have been a well-organised attempt by the husband to cover his tracks ... sort of a Fritzl situation without the basement. He originally abducted the mother in England so it appears they've moved around there as well as here.

The eldest boy now lives in a specialised unit in the UK and has been assessed as unable to live with other children.

This has been haunting me since I read it yesterday. "Unable to live with other children"? Because he's (as a result of his upbringing) a danger to other children??

sambuka41

Ayla wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier, the parents frequently moved all around the country. They also changed names & lived under aliases. They didn't send their kids to school with any sort of regularity.

So, tell me, if parents up & vanish in the night, change their identities and don't mingle with anyone, how exactly is this in any way the system's fault? They can't be tracked, they have no way of being found. Even more, according to the court report I heard today, they weren't even claiming any sort of state benefit, so as far as the state was concerned they hardly existed. It is very easy to live under the radar if you really want to (which clearly these folks did)

Blush_01 wrote: »

None of these things are cut and dried - much as we might like to immediately label someone as being "x" and condemn them.

No of course these type of situations are very complicated. Like i said I have worked in the care sector for a good few years now and the sad part is that the mother is also a victim of a crime. That is why I put the emphasis on the state and the role of social workers, educators, Gardai because they are charged with a duty to protect the children and they didn't. For what ever reasons the mother was not fit and the father was not willing to care adequately for the children it is the role of state to protect the most vulnerable and they failed.

Most likely because every social worker I know is worked to the maximum, there are not the resources to deal with all the concerns reported, not by a mile, but that doesn't excuse the fact that action was not taken.

As was said previously even if the children attended for one day it should have been enough to raise alarm bells and to check into the children's care and background more thoroughly; did the previous school have the same concerns, are the parents actively involved, are they attending meetings?

MissFlitworth

LittleBook wrote: »

This has been haunting me since I read it yesterday. "Unable to live with other children"? Because he's (as a result of his upbringing) a danger to other children??

This is just me taking my imagination for a walk but I'd imagine his father started out in a similarly abusive situation. You grow up in that kind of a home & god only knows how warped your mind ends up. Hopefully the poor kid gets the sort of help he needs so he's able to have a normal life and specialised units are only a temporary thing for him

Giselle

Abi wrote: »

Why were they constantly moving around? Is it so nobody would know them long enough to start asking questions, or was there another reason for this? If it was the former then they knew that they had something to hide, a conscienciousness of their guilt.

My heart just breaks for those kids. They should have been living happy, healthy little lives, having friends and most importantly just to feel loved. I'm so sad for them

When I read about the constant moving and lack of schooling I had assumed this was a Traveller family (and I'm not employing a prejudice in that assumption, it simply fitted).

Whatever the tragic outcome of the case, the mother was obviously in an abusive relationship from a very young age, and suffered addictions. I can only imagine how despondent a person can become after a lifetime of abuse, and many addictions eclipse other priorities. She wasn't the sole orchestrator of the conditions either. I can't help but feel some compassion for her. Monstrous as the husband seems to be, he's also a human being and likely to have learned this behaviour from experience. Its very sad.

It doesn't excuse her (or his) disregard for her children, and it doesn't excuse the agencies who should have had some alert on these children. The bulk of the compassion must be reserved for the children, innocent parties in all this.

I just can't understand how, in this new millenium, those children were overlooked by anyone they came in contact with. I suppose its possible they were so isolated that they had very little outside contact, but no one lives in a vacuum.

Poor kids.

Malari

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Don't write them off just yet - as one of several siblings all forcibly removed from our birth parents due to severe neglect - I'd hope they'll do just fine.

Yes, that's not really what I meant. I guess I should have said waste of a childhood. I know they will possibly go on to have better lives. I hope that's the case.

lockhartg

Delighted the animal got what she deserved. Its horrific when a child can't understand how to eat or got to the toilet.... How did this ever go unnoticed?

jay phelan

This story makes me feel sick The husband should have gotten more IMO :mad:

LittleBook

MissFlitworth wrote: »

This is just me taking my imagination for a walk but I'd imagine his father started out in a similarly abusive situation. You grow up in that kind of a home & god only knows how warped your mind ends up. Hopefully the poor kid gets the sort of help he needs so he's able to have a normal life and specialised units are only a temporary thing for him

Exactly. I was worried that the boy is now so warped that he himself is at risk of becoming an abuser ... it's a vicious circle that hopefully this boy can break out of.

Ickle Magoo

It could be that - it could just be for his own benefit rather than for the protection of others - as children can be pretty cruel at the best of times and he is clearly very, very vulnerable and suffering massive psychological trauma - I imagine all those involved are trying to avoid heaping peer pressure and bullying on top of his already significant issues.

LittleBook

Possibly Ickle ... indeed, hopefully! Although what that says about some children is a thread I don't want to pull at.

tararose

where was her maternal instinct to care for her young? Even Jaycee Lee Dugard and Elizabeth Fritzl were better mothers than her. They weren't on social welfare, he was working in the community so she had every chance to leave and get help

neuro-praxis

tararose wrote: »

so she had every chance to leave and get help

Nonsense. You've no idea what her circumstances were or what chances were and weren't available to her.