Nukes for Food: North Korea Moratorium

Black Swan

Today North Korea has signed a "moratorium on long-range missile tests, nuclear tests, and nuclear activities at Yongbyon, including uranium enrichment activities, the State Department said. In return, the United States will provide North Korea with a large food aid package."

The United States would still be at war with North Korea, but for a 27 July 1953 Armistice Agreement. There still have been exchanges of gunfire along the DMZ, so peace between North and South Korea has been often threatened since 1953.

The Republican GW Bush "Axis of Evil" speech did not help US foreign relations with North Korea, especially when the US attacked Iraq shortly after, one of the three nations noted by Bush in the "Axis" (i.e., Iraq, Iran, and North Korea).

It makes one wonder if foreign relations between North Korea and the US might have been better served back then by offering food to a starving nation than war?

Amerika

I highly doubt it.

Perhaps a better question might be... can we ever trust them? "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Déjà vu all over again?

A history of failed nuclear agreements with North Korea.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/29/us-korea-north-talks-idUSTRE81S1PG20120229?feedType=RSS&virtualBrandChannel=11563

matthew8

Fantastic news. Fair play to Barack Obama if true.

Black Swan

The US and South Korea reached an agreement in 2008 for the US to maintain 28,500 troops in ROK, with no further reductions planned. Further, the ROK military is to assume wartime operational control on 1 December 2015 of all military forces in their country, including the US military assigned there. With 680,000 ROK military to defend their nation, why does the US still maintain its token force, which over the decades has cost US taxpayers billions of dollars?

Furthermore, to what extent has the presence of the US military at or near the DMZ for decades added to the friction between North and South Korea, which in turn may have frustrated past attempts at reunification?

Negotiations have been going since the 1953 Armistice, and the more I read about this unresolved war, the more I am convinced that all administrations, be they Republican or Democrat, during these past decades have exhibited their incompetence in the art of diplomacy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Cork boy 55

Black Swan wrote: »

............
on long-range missile tests,
nuclear tests,
and nuclear activities at Yongbyon,
including uranium enrichment activities,
...............

Maybe the Norks already

(1) have enough bombs made for their needs
(2) have sucessfully tested longe rang missles and do not need any more
data in the short to medium term
(3) have enough data and no need to do any nuclear tests in the short to medium term
(4) have enriched all the Uranium they need.

Cork boy 55

Black Swan wrote: »

The US and South Korea reached an agreement in 2008 for the US to maintain 28,500 troops in ROK, with no further reductions planned. Further, the ROK military is to assume wartime operational control on 1 December 2015 of all military forces in their country, including the US military assigned there. With 680,000 ROK military to defend their nation, why does the US still maintain its token force, which over the decades has cost US taxpayers billions of dollars?

Furthermore, to what extent has the presence of the US military at or near the DMZ for decades added to the friction between North and South Korea, which in turn may have frustrated past attempts at reunification?

....

I have thought that myself is the presence of so many Americans troops
an negative for progress from both the Norks and the Chinese

Also why 30,000 plus troops. infantry bridgades, tanks, helicopters etc
I understand the need for an airbase and naval base and forward logistics.
but they is no need for these type of troops espescilly when Japan is still full of Usa marines.
In conventational terms the Sorks outgun the Norks 100-1
North korea would not last a month in a non-nuclear war with south Korea on its own.

timesnap

The truth is North Korea's oppressive regime has always used threats to blackmail its perceived enemies(for perceived read everywhere and everyone) into feeding their
people.

this agreement just puts that fact on paper.
pity the NK's who have to live in a land of abandonment because it is cheaper and easier to throw them a few crumbs than to tackle the real issues.

*nice to see you posting again Amerika,i chose my sig with you in mind :pac:

Sindri

The young lad I'd say is being 'advised' by his uncle, and you cannot fault his uncle's logic, to give the people food, and cement his position as a deity figure in the hereditary Marxist theocracy that is North Korea.

Amerika

If President Obama can pull off some real deterrents, then I give him kudos. Unfortunately, if NK abides by the agreement in exchange for food, what do they have to offer their other trading partner countries? I fear all they have to offer is weaponry, including long-range missiles, and suspect nuclear technology. I don’t think countries are all that interested in importing famine and misery. Once NK gets decent amounts of food from us, what is to stop them from testing their long-range missiles in Iran?

@ timesnap.... Hmmm! The only Reagan quote you can find... or the only one you like?

Cork boy 55

fox news opinion on it

Why the North Korea nuclear moratorium means next to nothing

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/29/why-north-korea-nuclear-moratorium-means-next-to-nothing/#ixzz1ntEUKKSG

Cork boy 55

Onion news network satire on appeasement of the Norks.

:D:D

Tensions Mount After North Korea Destroys All Of Asia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8nrdiQqFAs

timesnap

Amerika wrote: »

@ timesnap.... Hmmm! The only Reagan quote you can find... or the only one you like?

No just one of many of his that i like,although before my time i find him fascinating and far more clever and complex than he is ever given credit for.
heaven forbid but i think i might even have been a Reagan democrat in the context of the time.

Amerika

And does anyone here actually believe NK will allow independent inspectors free reign in order to confirm compliance? Anyone? Bueller?

...

timesnap wrote: »

heaven forbid but i think i might even have been a Reagan democrat in the context of the time.

Dontcha fear getting the boot from the kumbayahoo club?

K-9

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Onion news network satire on appeasement of the Norks.

:D:D

Tensions Mount After North Korea Destroys All Of Asia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8nrdiQqFAs

Mod

Please outline a summary of any videos posted and give an opinion on the piece. With the rise of smartphones it's becoming etiquette to do so.

Overheal

Hunger is the food of revolution.

Cardinal Richelieu

Overheal wrote: »

Hunger is the food of revolution.

Are we due one in America soon?

http://feedingamerica.org

HUNGER IN AMERICA: KEY FINDINGS

The 37 million Americans served annually by Feeding America include nearly 14 million children and nearly 3 million seniors.
Each week, approximately 5.7 million people receive emergency food assistance from an agency served by a Feeding America member. This is a 27percent increase over numbers reported in Hunger in America 2006, which reported that 4.5 million people were served each week.
These numbers are based on surveys conducted at emergency feeding centers, such as soup kitchens and food pantries, but do not factor in many individuals also served at non-emergency locations, such as Kids Cafe programs and senior centers.
Client Households

76 percent (10 million) of client households served are food insecure, meaning they do not always know where they will find their next meal.
36 percent of these client households are experiencing food insecurity with hunger, meaning they are sometimes completely without a source of food.
79 percent (11 million) of households with children served are also food insecure.
Of the 37 million people the Feeding America network serves:
70 percent of households have incomes below the federal poverty line.
The average monthly income for client households is $940.
36 percent of households have one or more adults who is working.
10 percent of client households are homeless.
Tough Choices

Many of the client households served by Feeding America food banks report that their household incomes are inadequate to cover their basic household expenses.

46 percent of client households served report having to choose between paying for utilities or heating fuel and food.
39 percent of client households said they had to choose between paying for rent or a mortgage and food.
34 percent of client households report having to choose between paying for medical bills and food.
35 percent of client households must choose between transportation and food.
One in four client households (24 percent) do not have health insurance and nearly half of our adult clients report that they have unpaid medical and hospital bills.

Thirty percent of households report having at least one member of their household in poor health.

Black Swan

US agriculture produces a large surplus of food, as can be realized by their agricultural trade, consequently they have food to spare for their population and for aid to North Korea. The US also has stockpiles of food not shown here.

2011 year agricultural trade:
$137.366 billion exports - 94.487 billion imports = $42.879 billion surplus

Furthermore, large numbers of farmers in the US are paid subsidies not to produce to maximum in order to keep farm prices up, as well as to not exhaust the land overtime.

The hunger problem experienced in the US has little to do with US agricultural farm production capacity; rather it has to do with such things as unemployment, underemployment, homeless, cycle of poverty, Great Recession, etc., all associated with their economic system.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Black Swan

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That may be the temporary side-effect of the nukes for food negotiations, but obviously not the intended or long range purpose.

The unintended consequences of sending vast stores of food to North Korea is problematic in other, non-ideological ways. What happens to North Korean farmers when US surplus food is dumped onto their markets? There is also the issue of McFall's Population Paradox, where starving women are biologically less fecund, and once fed have more children, thereby creating more mouths to feed in coming generations, and a greater potential for future starvation; i.e., the North Korean starvation problem is complex, and just sending food can at times have unintended and adverse future consequences.

I would suspect that part of the driving motivation of the Obama administration is to score a few foreign diplomacy points for the coming November 2012 elections. Regardless of their motivation, if it moves the US in the direction of resolving this leftover mess of many former Republican and Democrat administrations, then grand.

RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I suspect they want rid of the North Korea talking point before they invade a wealthy industrialised nation for (not probably maybe whocares) having nukes.

Jonny7

A senior Chinese diplomat likened NK to a "spoiled child" (off the record) - and politically that's what they are.

After relations "thaw" for awhile, there'll be another incident, tensions rise, cycle repeats.

Cardinal Richelieu

Jonny7 wrote: »

A senior Chinese diplomat likened NK to a "spoiled child" (off the record) - and politically that's what they are.

After relations "thaw" for awhile, there'll be another incident, tensions rise, cycle repeats.

I would say the next flashpoint might be the Chinese decision to start handing back North Korean refugees, there were protests already in China this week. The new North Korean Leader to show that he is a hardman issued orders that all returned refugees would be executed. South Korea has already protested the decision.

Jonny7

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

I would say the next flashpoint might be the Chinese decision to start handing back North Korean refugees, there were protests already in China this week. The new North Korean Leader to show that he is a hardman issued orders that all returned refugees would be executed. South Korea has already protested the decision.

I thought the Chinese have been returning them for years

The families of the refugees also face extermination or being sent to camps - "collective punishment"

Cork boy 55

That deal did not last long the NorKs are firing off a rocket soon
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/RestOfAsia/May-shoot-down-North-Korea-rocket-says-South/Article1-831266.aspx

i don't agree with Obama turning up at an OP on the DMZ best not to annoy them

Manic Moran

Every President visits, it's just a tradition.

Overheal

I get the feeling those photos will be meme'd by the end of the week. Dont ask me why.

RichieC

I really like his president jacket! I wear the s*it out of it.

Manic Moran

Does he really need the rank and nametag?

Brian?

Manic Moran wrote: »

Does he really need the rank and nametag?

I seriously doubt he had it made that way himself. Doesn't it look like a gift from the military or some such?

Sindri

Manic Moran wrote: »

Does he really need the rank and nametag?

Standing on one of the most contentious borders in the world, yes he does.

Amerika

"better served back then by offering food to a starving nation"

Hmm... Well that didn’t last long, did it? Since North Korea voided the food aid deal with the United States with their long range missile launch, we will in all likelihood withhold the 240,000 tons of U.S. of food aid and other possible benefits to a starving NK. And let me guess... the US will be the evil ones in the eyes of the world. :rolleyes:

RichieC

Manic Moran wrote: »

Does he really need the rank and nametag?

Strange question from a military man, considering you're talking about your supreme commander.

Overheal

RichieC wrote: »

supreme commander.

Commander in Chief..

RichieC

Overheal wrote: »

Commander in Chief..

all the same.

Overheal

RichieC wrote: »

all the same.

Then the irony of my post was lost on you :rolleyes:

timesnap

Overheal wrote: »

Then the irony of my post was lost on you :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70361009

RichieC

Overheal wrote: »

Then the irony of my post was lost on you :rolleyes:

quite.