do you think its hypocritical to be a vegitarian, yet drink milk, eat cheeses etc?

Stressica

A person mentioned this in a previous thread i created and i thought it'd be interesting to bring it up with you all.

I know this is quite controversial and vegitarians probably wont agree or wont like what i say, and dont for a minute think i am trying to some sort of preacher that we all must 'join some vegan cult' ... veganism isnt either its a lifestyle.

its not just about not eating animal products, its being ethicaly aware and compassionate eg not buying products tested on animals, not wearing leather or fur etc the list goes on of course that doesnt apply to every single vegan its up to the individual person.

so what do you guys think, do you think its hypocrtitical to not eat meat yet still eat dairy.... i mean the dairy industry is as bas if not worse then the beef industry, Dairy supplies calves for veal, live export , and beef.

the majority of eggs comes from caged hens living in a spaces of an a4 sheet of paper for a year and a bit then to be made into dog and cat food. Even though i am vegan i will eat my own hen's eggs but that is it because my hens have acres to roam in and were my pets, just like dogs but with feathers, because organic and so called free frange really doesnt mean much nowadays, just check out the so called happy hens on youtube.

i am not trying to say that every farmer is cruel and evil btw, i do love some farms that are what they say completly organic and their animals are treated like luxury and with dignity and respect, i used to know a farmer when i was about 5/6 who really loved his cattle and even gave them names, so i'm not trying to give all farmers a bad name (:

So what you guys think? dont be shy, i think its good for people to talk about things like this and see what other people think.

fillefatale

I can't really see how this is going to invoke a positive discussion - the tone of your post is quite judgmental on non-vegans (not sure if this is your intention but it is how it reads). This attitude towards vegetarians has made me quite uncomfortable in the past.

Slaphead07

People will (and should) answer to their own conscience not somebody else's.

Stressica

Guys i wasn't trying to be mean or judgmental towards vegetarians, although i realize now it looks that way, i was just trying to see what people thought. -apologies.

Tar.Aldarion

Well most people I would know of are vegetarian/vegan to reduce the amount of harm they personally inflict on animals, to reduce suffering.

By being vegetarian they reduce this a lot, by being vegan more-so, people are just doing a certain amount to help out in the reduction of the amount of animal deaths that are caused by their lives. If you gave money to charity because it prevented the deaths of people, would it be hypocritical to not give more money, to not give all your money?

As a vegetarian yes, animal suffering is not alleviated as much as a vegan, but as a vegan animal suffering is not completely alleviated either, is it hypocritical to not go even further? Animals die for the crops a vegan eats (harvesting and other reasons), for the products they use, for the lifestyle they live. This is a simple fact due to the civilization we live in, others suffer, the extent varies. If a vegan were to go and live in nature, such as a tribe in a forest, or grow their own foods and so forth, the amount of suffering they cause to animals would be lessened further, are they hypocritical for not doing so? I don't think so. People should do what they feel for a cause they believe in, with what they are comfortable in doing.

shayleon

Slaphead07 wrote: »

People will (and should) answer to their own conscience not somebody else's.

While at first look this looks like a good rule of thumb, we reached where we are because of this thought.

In China, their conscience allows them to bake dogs alive, in Ireland it allows them to castrate and mutilate pigs without anesthetics and in most of the World vegetarian means (unwillingly) supporting an industry that kills billions of male chicks every year and supporting the veal industry.

I don't see veganism as the ultimate moral conscience, but more as a base, as the bare minimum..

Slaphead07

shayleon wrote: »

While at first look this looks like a good rule of thumb, we reached where we are because of this thought.

In China, their conscience allows them to bake dogs alive, in Ireland it allows them to castrate and mutilate pigs without anesthetics and in most of the World vegetarian means (unwillingly) supporting an industry that kills billions of male chicks every year and supporting the veal industry.

I don't see veganism as the ultimate moral conscience, but more as a base, as the bare minimum..

That's a rather naive view. Utopian even. You really expect everyone to live their lives according to your standards? Really? Do what you can, try and be an example where people might be open to it. But don't preach, don't judge and don't raise your flag on the high moral ground.

galwaymusic

Nah man that's whats veganism is for.
I'm a strict vegetarian though. I don't eat Gelling agents such as Gelatine and Pectin. I don't eat meat, poultry or fish. I havent touched any sweets or food with animal products in them (gelatin etc.)
I don't drink dairy milk...I've replaced it with Soya and Rice milk. I rarely eat eggs or cheese, but I like them. I don't wear any leather either, or support any companies that use animals for testing or anythig else like that.
This kinda makes me semi-vegan.

Being strict vegetarian is enough for reducing the amount of cruelty and slaughter.

IMO eggs and cheese don't necessarily mean killing an animal! And I am just hoping that the odd time I have and egg if some Light cheese, no harm (cruelty) was done to the animal!

I consider my current diet and morals, regarding vegetarianism, the best I can possibly make it for the well being of animals...and for myself!

runawaybishop

galwaymusic wrote: »

Being strict vegetarian is enough for reducing the amount of cruelty and slaughter.

More animals and insects are killed in harvesting of grain crops. But thats ok, cos they are only fieldmice and insects mainly. Right?

galwaymusic

runawaybishop wrote: »

galwaymusic wrote: »

Being strict vegetarian is enough for reducing the amount of cruelty and slaughter.

More animals and insects are killed in harvesting of grain crops. But thats ok, cos they are only fieldmice and insects mainly. Right?

I hardly eat breads anyways.

By the way, I don't exactly like your comment. It's unclear whether youre trying to have an intelligent conversation or speaking in a rude, judgmental and persuasive tone.

galwaymusic wrote: »

Being strict vegetarian is enough for reducing the amount of cruelty and slaughter.

To be honest, I really think my diet is cutting out MORE THAN ENOUGH cruelty, for my part. It really is. I understand that there are other forms of cruelty and slaughter going on in other parts of the food sector but I'm doing my best here.

runawaybishop

galwaymusic wrote: »

I hardly eat breads anyways.

By the way, I don't exactly like your comment. It's unclear whether youre trying to have an intelligent conversation or speaking in a rude, judgmental and persuasive tone.



To be honest, I really think my diet is cutting out MORE THAN ENOUGH cruelty, for my part. It really is. I understand that there are other forms of cruelty and slaughter going on in other parts of the food sector but I'm doing my best here.

I am being judgemental obviously. Claiming to decrease cruelty and slaughtering when the opposite is true annoys me.

galwaymusic

runawaybishop wrote: »

I am being judgemental obviously. Claiming to decrease cruelty and slaughtering when the opposite is true annoys me.

You annoy me.
I AM decreasing cruelty and slaughter in my own small contributory way. This ethical subject always draws some assholes doesn't it...

Slaphead07

There is nothing to be gained from a discussion which is little more than one person claiming to be more moral than another.
Like I said, just answer to your own conscience - it all adds up.

galwaymusic

Slaphead07 wrote: »

There is nothing to be gained from a discussion which is little more than one person claiming to be more moral than another.
Like I said, just answer to your own conscience - it all adds up.

I agree...but can I just point out that he started it.

JCC

In everyone's own life we apply a sort of bias that will make our own beliefs feel like the right ones. If you want to eat meat, you will justify it. If you want to smoke, you will justify it. If you want to be a veg*an, you will justify it. If you want to eat egg/milk/fish and call yourself a vegetarian, you will justify it. This doesn't make you more right or wrong than anyone else.

I don't think myself to be hypocritical because to me my vegetarianism is so much more than what I eat. My family and friends have benefited from the knowledge from me that has seeped down through the dinner table, not changing, but maybe modifying any beliefs and bias they may have had regarding the meat industry. I find myself questioning any bias I have towards my food (the main one being "I'll never give up cheese because it's too lovely"), and I know this is a good thing as I can see myself eventually going vegan.

In short, beliefs and life long habits take a long time to change, and in a lot of instances, never change at all. I wouldn't hold this against someone and call them a hypocrite if say, I met a person who called themselves a vegetarian but still ate chicken! Who knows, they may one day change their ways

runawaybishop

galwaymusic wrote: »

You annoy me.
I AM decreasing cruelty and slaughter in my own small contributory way. This ethical subject always draws some assholes doesn't it...

How is an increase supposed to be a decrease? Get off your moral high horse.

edit: the op does make a good argument btw. For example, eating an egg sandwich results in more loss of life than eating a burger due to the fact that the chickens that produced the egg are killed at the end of their productive life.

galwaymusic

runawaybishop wrote: »

How is an increase supposed to be a decrease? Get off your moral high horse.

I really don't know what increase you're talking about. The only decrease is that I am decreasing the amount of slaughter and cruelty by decreasing and in fact eliminating the animal-products in my diet/life.

So what the hell am I increasing? I am not on a high horse here love, you're just overly argumentative and over-reacting.

runawaybishop

galwaymusic wrote: »

I really don't know what increase you're talking about. The only decrease is that I am decreasing the amount of slaughter and cruelty by decreasing and in fact eliminating the animal-products in my diet/life.

So what the hell am I increasing? I am not on a high horse here love, you're just overly argumentative and over-reacting.

Decreasing the consumption of animal products doesn't necessarily mean you are decreasing loss of life. More animal and insects are killed in the harvesting of crops than are killed in the slaughtering and feeding of animals such as cattle. More animals are killed in the consumption of an omelette than a burger.

Davis proposes a ruminant-pasture model of food production, which would replace all poultry, pig and lamb production with beef and dairy products. According to his calculations, such a model would result in the deaths of 300 million fewer animals annually (counting both field animals and cattle) than would a total vegan model. This difference, according to Davis, is mainly the result of fewer field animals killed in pasture and forage production than in the growing and harvest of grain, beans, and corn.

^^ that is what I am referring to.

http://measureofdoubt.com/2011/06/22/why-a-vegetarian-might-kill-more-animals-than-an-omnivore/

^^ that is more related to what the op is discussing.

galwaymusic

I don't believe animals are treated even more inhumanely than in anything other than slaughter houses etc. My greatest worry (and reason for vegetarianism and supporting particular brands) is solely for the welfare of animals. That is what I believe.

blatantrereg

Stressica wrote: »

A person mentioned this in a previous thread i created and i thought it'd be interesting to bring it up with you all.

I know this is quite controversial and vegitarians probably wont agree or wont like what i say, and dont for a minute think i am trying to some sort of preacher that we all must 'join some vegan cult' ... veganism isnt either its a lifestyle.

its not just about not eating animal products, its being ethicaly aware and compassionate eg not buying products tested on animals, not wearing leather or fur etc the list goes on of course that doesnt apply to every single vegan its up to the individual person.

so what do you guys think, do you think its hypocrtitical to not eat meat yet still eat dairy.... i mean the dairy industry is as bas if not worse then the beef industry, Dairy supplies calves for veal, live export , and beef.

the majority of eggs comes from caged hens living in a spaces of an a4 sheet of paper for a year and a bit then to be made into dog and cat food. Even though i am vegan i will eat my own hen's eggs but that is it because my hens have acres to roam in and were my pets, just like dogs but with feathers, because organic and so called free frange really doesnt mean much nowadays, just check out the so called happy hens on youtube.

i am not trying to say that every farmer is cruel and evil btw, i do love some farms that are what they say completly organic and their animals are treated like luxury and with dignity and respect, i used to know a farmer when i was about 5/6 who really loved his cattle and even gave them names, so i'm not trying to give all farmers a bad name (:

So what you guys think? dont be shy, i think its good for people to talk about things like this and see what other people think.

Nothing hypocritical about it. It is hypocritical to say you're vegan when you eat eggs though.

Doubt many vegetarians opt for battery-farmed eggs. Most people find that practice objectionable, vegetarian or not. It's banned outright in several countries. Why does having acres of land for pet chickens make you an honourary vegan?

TooManyDogs

I personally think everyone needs to do as much as they can to reduce damage to animals and the environment. There are many factors involved in everyone's personal decision and no matter how far you personally decide to go to satisfy your own conscience there will always be someone to go a step further.

So you ask if it's hypocritical for vegetarians to consume dairy? But is it not also hypocritical for vegans to wear off the shelf clothing? Surely all their clothing should be ethically produced using only organic materials from a company that doesn't impact much on the environment so the clothes shouldn't be imported? Should vegans drive cars which adds to environmental pollution and new roads impacting on wildlife by reducing habitat? What about furniture? Is your furniture all local and environmentally friendly? Wood from sustainable forests?

I believe let everyone answer their own conscience and leave everybody elses consciences to themselves

Ruthee

galwaymusic wrote: »

Nah man that's whats veganism is for.
I'm a strict vegetarian though. I don't eat Gelling agents such as Gelatine and Pectin. !

isnt pectin vegetarian? from fruit? is there a reason i dont know of why its not vegetarian?

Tar.Aldarion

It's vegetarian yes, nothing to worry about. Think they just made a mistake.

tricky D

I wish people would stop shoehorning our various isms into rigid pigeonholes with black and white borders. I do a very good job with my vegetarianism within the grey borders I choose to define. It annoys and misses the point when people get all smug because they interpret matters in these grey areas as critical shortcomings when they're more like subjective interpretations. Arguing over the superiority of veganism or vegetarianism or lacto-ovo-vegetarianism or whatever misses the main point which is that we care and make a good effort to some extent or another.

--LOS--

Stressica wrote: »

A person mentioned this in a previous thread i created and i thought it'd be interesting to bring it up with you all.

I know this is quite controversial and vegitarians probably wont agree or wont like what i say, and dont for a minute think i am trying to some sort of preacher that we all must 'join some vegan cult' ... veganism isnt either its a lifestyle.

its not just about not eating animal products, its being ethicaly aware and compassionate eg not buying products tested on animals, not wearing leather or fur etc the list goes on of course that doesnt apply to every single vegan its up to the individual person.

so what do you guys think, do you think its hypocrtitical to not eat meat yet still eat dairy.... i mean the dairy industry is as bas if not worse then the beef industry, Dairy supplies calves for veal, live export , and beef.

the majority of eggs comes from caged hens living in a spaces of an a4 sheet of paper for a year and a bit then to be made into dog and cat food. Even though i am vegan i will eat my own hen's eggs but that is it because my hens have acres to roam in and were my pets, just like dogs but with feathers, because organic and so called free frange really doesnt mean much nowadays, just check out the so called happy hens on youtube.

i am not trying to say that every farmer is cruel and evil btw, i do love some farms that are what they say completly organic and their animals are treated like luxury and with dignity and respect, i used to know a farmer when i was about 5/6 who really loved his cattle and even gave them names, so i'm not trying to give all farmers a bad name (:

So what you guys think? dont be shy, i think its good for people to talk about things like this and see what other people think.

I think what's wrong here is that you seem to have your own set definition of a vegetarian.
The way you described the vegan lifestyle (in bold) applies to many vegetarians too, most I know anyways. I'm vegetarian and for me it's not just about what you eat. Any cosmetics, shampoos etc I buy are not tested on animals and do not contain animals by-products, I avoid leather etc, I eat free range eggs, I generally don't buy milk, cheese, butter etc (admittedly this is more of a health choice) but I don't avoid them eating out to make life that little bit easier. I grew up on a dairy farm, so for most of my life all the milk and eggs I used came directly from the farm so no harm there. The thing that does bother me the most now is probably eggs, I'm well aware 'free range' whilst better than normal eggs still involves a lot of cruelty. I may well work on that over time, after all I reached this point of vegetarianism by phasing things out over time which is also why I don't believe in a set definition of a vegetarian.

The Hill Billy

@galwaymusic & runawaybishop - quit the bickering. If you cannot discuss the topic (ie, do you think its hypocritical to be a vegitarian, yet drink milk, eat cheeses etc?) in a reasonable manner do not bother posting any further in this thread.

If you have a problem with a post - report it & let a moderator deal with it.

Stay on-topic please.

tHB

Mark Hamill

--LOS-- wrote: »

I don't believe in a set definition of a vegetarian.

Why not? I understand the problems associated with different people applying their own set definitions to vegetarianism, but there does need to be one minimum definition (if nothing else but to stop people calling themselves vegetarian while tucking into a chicken wing or a a cod fillet).

The way I see it, you are vegetarian if you never willingly eat dead animals. The reasons why and the extent to which you change other aspects of your lifestyle all come separately to that (and cannot be inferred from that).

Therefore, in terms of the OP, I dont think its hypocritical to be vegetarian and eat cheese, eggs etc, as there is nothing in being a vegetarian that necessarily or automatically translates to animal rights or animal welfare.

Steven81

I have been a vegetarian since i was 6 when i heard a sermon in church and heard were meat came from, throughout my life i am sick of people asking me why i dont eat meat first and then do you eat fish and chicken. I chose it as i felt it was cruel simple as. I am not a vegan but would always buy free range eggs or get them from a local farmer were the hens can run around. People ask how can you live without meat but i know i have a healthy diet and when i go give blood the nurse has said whatever you are eating or drinking keep it up so i must be doing something right

One other thing that annoys me is when i am out getting food with the wife and they dont have any vege food on it i ask what they can do, 99% of time it is pasta with a bit of sauce, how imaginative.

The wife is pregnant and the child is going to eat meat up to the age were she can decide what path she wants to follow, that decision will be hers though.

galwaymusic

Ruthee wrote: »

galwaymusic wrote: »

Nah man that's whats veganism is for.
I'm a strict vegetarian though. I don't eat Gelling agents such as Gelatine and Pectin. !

isnt pectin vegetarian? from fruit? is there a reason i dont know of why its not vegetarian?

Yes sorry! I meant Pepsin lol they sound too similar.
Pepsin is found in hogs' stomachs. A clotting agent. In some cheeses and vitamins

Curlyhatescurls

I don't like calling myself a 'vegan' as I feel that it is a whole ideology and not all of which I agree with. That being said I don't eat animal producst such as milk and cheese etc. I only eat the eggs from our chickens. Our chickens have a good life, the eggs are not fertilised as we don't have a cock and they lay eggs everyday so I don't see why you wouldn't eat them There are blurry lines in the fact that when our chickens get old they will be killed and most likely eaten, but they will have longer and far better lives than they would have had in any other situation so I don't think it is as black and white as saying 'it's cruel'.
I think a lot of vegetarians don't actually realise the cruelty caused through the dairy industry, something you pointed out in your OP. There was a whole discussion about this in another thread, facts such as the dairy industry causing more deaths than the beef industry, the suffering of the dairy cows were highlighted and backed up with clear sources and reading it made me choose not to consume dairy products. For me, it seemed hypocritical to say I was a vegetarian because I disagreed with killing animals etc and then to consume dairy products knowing that more animals were being killed and suffering because of that industry. I would be doing more good eating beef and not eating dairy products in terms of a cow's suffering.
I do think that any effort is good, and a lot of it comes down to your own conscience and what value you put on life itself. That being said I would be surprised to hear that most vegetarians are fully aware of the horrors of the dairy and egg industry and choose to continue consuming these products. I like to think that they are just unaware of these facts. The three vegetarians that I have spoken to were all unaware of the cruelty of these industries like me, and after learning the facts they, like me, chose to give up these products.