Huge amount of Welsh players leaving Wales

Tigerandahalf

Bennett is the latest to leave. Off to Lyon.

CIARAN_BOYLE

You have to worry that it will result in weakening the league

Tigerandahalf

I was thinking that. The clubs in Wales could go to the wall. Crowds are small there. Unless Cardiff do magic against Leinster another blank year.

washman3

Hard to blame them.
should they stay and play in the Rabo Pro12?? a complete and utter waste of time.
nobody goes to those games in Wales.
and why wait around to play 1 or 2 high profile games in the Heineken Cup.
As i've said here many times before, Wales simply cannot sustain 4 professional teams.

Tigerandahalf

If they cant how are we doing it?
Connacht's support base is improving. The game is doing v well here. The provincial system was already in place here.
It just doesnt seem to have happened in Wales. Funny how when Cardiff went back to old Arms Park their crowds surged.
If this exodus continues there may be no way back for Welsh club rugby.

PhatPiggins

washman3 wrote: »

Hard to blame them.
should they stay and play in the Rabo Pro12?? a complete and utter waste of time.
nobody goes to those games in Wales.
and why wait around to play 1 or 2 high profile games in the Heineken Cup.
As i've said here many times before, Wales simply cannot sustain 4 professional teams.

You imagine the T14 is awash with high profile glamour games? Home and away to to the top 6 French sides is not much different to home and away to the top 3 Irish sides and the bigger English teams in the LV.

They go for money and who can blame them.

Tigerandahalf

Only a matter of time before row erupts in France over too many foreign players.

leonard7

i heard that gethin jenkins was going to get his contract cut by 40% if staying at the blues...its not like football where players can live comfortably off their wage for 30 years so cant blame him for leaving and wales really need to buck this trend of players going overseas as all that is going to happen is that more and more move

PhatPiggins

washman3 wrote: »

Hard to blame them.
should they stay and play in the Rabo Pro12?? a complete and utter waste of time.
nobody goes to those games in Wales.
and why wait around to play 1 or 2 high profile games in the Heineken Cup.
As i've said here many times before, Wales simply cannot sustain 4 professional teams.

You imagine the T14 is awash with high profile glamour games? Home and away to to the top 6 French sides is not much different to home and away to the top 3 Irish sides and the bigger English teams in the LV.

They go for money and who can blame them.

PhatPiggins

leonard7 wrote: »

i heard that gethin jenkins was going to get his contract cut by 40% if staying at the blues...its not like football where players can live comfortably off their wage for 30 years so cant blame him for leaving and wales really need to buck this trend of players going overseas as all that is going to happen is that more and more move

Casey Lualala is getting paid exactly double by Munster of what Cardiff offered him to renew his contract.

The big problem for the Welsh teams is they're having to offer their exisiting big name players sinificantly less than their current contracts. Always going to be one result their

durkadurka

And yet Wales still seem to be able to summon together a cohesive international team.

CatFromHue

If I remember right the new salary cap in Wales is 3.5m but it's only for first team players.

Are the Welsh internationals solely paid by their clubs?

Doing a very rough calculation if so 3,500,000 / 32 = 109375.

There are 32 players listed on the Cardiff Blues squad page but 109375 isn't a lot really for players of their stature.

KenSwee

I think the fans have a lot to answer for.
They have been stubborn about the moves by all the sides to better stadiums and complain about no atmosphere. They have no problem turning up for the internationals but they don't bother to make the effort to come to the Rabo games.

leonard7

CatFromHue wrote: »

If I remember right the new salary cap in Wales is 3.5m but it's only for first team players.

Are the Welsh internationals solely paid by their clubs?

Doing a very rough calculation if so 3,500,000 / 32 = 109375.

There are 32 players listed on the Cardiff Blues squad page but 109375 isn't a lot really for players of their stature.

i wouldnt mind playing rugby for cardiff for 109375 a year would have to fake an injury every ulster game though

irishbucsfan

I don't think a salary cap was a good idea at all.

The welsh have managed to completely mess up where the IRFU have succeeded (finances, provinces, central contracting) and completely succeed where the IRFU have messed up (national team).

I think more good young Welsh players will come through to replace these guys that are leaving, but will they be good enough to sustain any sort of success, and once they're succesful will they just move on? Will the Irish academies be more succesful with poaching young Welsh lads (after being turned down by that young openside). Very dodgy time for the regions.

profitius

Its not great for the league but I don't think the league will be weakened much. The Italians will be stronger and the Scots are getting better too not to mention Connacht.

There might not be much between the Welsh next season and the like of Glasgow and Edinburgh. The Dragons have always been a bit better than Connacht but that'll change next season.

The Welsh will have to rely on their academies for a few seasons until things improve.

In terms of crowds it might not be all bad news. The lowering of fans expectation will be a good thing. The Welsh people see their regions as being the equal of the top Irish provinces so they view the regions as failures. Ospreys are second in the league at the moment but its not appreciated by their fans. Their ML wins were not appreciated much by the Osprey fans either. If Treviso, Edinburgh or Glasgow were in second place you'd see a difference in their attendances (although the Scots have had a good season in terms of attendances).

bilston

The Ospreys lost a lot of players last year and are still very competitive, whether they can take another hit is debateable though.

The problem is that the Welsh should neve rhave regionalised their game. They should have bitten the bullet and picked four clubs (Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport, Neath or Pontypridd) and made them fully professional. By creating five regions (three out of nothing) they denied themselves an already solid fanbase for the Dragons, Ospreys and previously the Celtic Warriors.

We're just lucky our provinces have existed for however long and have been playing rugby against each other for almost 150 years.

profitius

A big debate in Wales currently centers around whether the WRU should be paying for central contracts. It makes sense. The Cardiff Blues owner has said that paying the wages of Welsh team players is very bad value for money for them. For instance those players only play a handful of Pro 12 games per season and thats if they stay fit. You can see his point and thats why a small offer was made to Gethin Jenkins. A lesser player might be more valuable to the Blues than Jenkins because of availability.

bilston

profitius wrote: »

A big debate in Wales currently centers around whether the WRU should be paying for central contracts. It makes sense. The Cardiff Blues owner has said that paying the wages of Welsh team players is very bad value for money for them. For instance those players only play a handful of Pro 12 games per season and thats if they stay fit. You can see his point and thats why a small offer was made to Gethin Jenkins. A lesser player might be more valuable to the Blues than Jenkins because of availability.

No doubt about it, I'm frankly amazed the WRU don't have central contracts. Without them nearly all of the top Irish internationals would currently be plying their trade in the Top 14 and AP.

Remember it's only 12 or 13 years since all our top players played in England.

justsomebloke

The Aviva Premiership has a Salary Cap of 4 mil compared to the 3.5 mil of the Welsh clubs so there isn't a hugh gulf between them. So I'd say this is a play by the clubs to try and get the welsh players on central contracts.

profitius

justsomebloke wrote: »

The Aviva Premiership has a Salary Cap of 4 mil compared to the 3.5 mil of the Welsh clubs so there isn't a hugh gulf between them. So I'd say this is a play by the clubs to try and get the welsh players on central contracts.

Or some sort of compensation for internationals being away. Theres alot of politics in Welsh rugby that I'm glad we don't have here. The English and French also seem to be fighting among themselves.

Webbs

bilston wrote: »

The problem is that the Welsh should neve rhave regionalised their game. They should have bitten the bullet and picked four clubs (Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport, Neath or Pontypridd) and made them fully professional. By creating five regions (three out of nothing) they denied themselves an already solid fanbase for the Dragons, Ospreys and previously the Celtic Warriors.

We're just lucky our provinces have existed for however long and have been playing rugby against each other for almost 150 years.

But thats pretty much what they did.
Llanelli
Cardiff
Newport (to include Gwent Valleys)
Warriors (Bridgend/Pontypridd)
Ospreys (Swansea/Neath)

Problem was that big crowds came from local derbies and rivalries which were taken away so it is going to take a long time (generations?) to rebuild fan bases who dont have divided loyalties, and also a large fan base (Anything north of Cardiff) who dont really have an association to any region

Tigerandahalf

Who would the pontypridd brigend supporters be rowing in with now and what club are taking players from that area??

PhatPiggins

justsomebloke wrote: »

The Aviva Premiership has a Salary Cap of 4 mil compared to the 3.5 mil of the Welsh clubs so there isn't a hugh gulf between them. So I'd say this is a play by the clubs to try and get the welsh players on central contracts.

Good point hadn't thought about that.

No way the likes of Sarries/Tigers/Northampton are keeping within the 4 million

Clareman

Whatever about the league or finances, for the Welsh national team this isn't a bad thing, they get their established players getting game time in a competitive league while making space for new up and coming talent game time in a competitive league while keeping their finances in check.

wonton

I can't even remember what feckin team gavin henson is playing for now....he was saracens then toloun and now...

phog

wonton wrote: »

I can't even remember what feckin team gavin henson is playing for now....he was saracens then toloun and now...

Try here

Clegg

wonton wrote: »

I can't even remember what feckin team gavin henson is playing for now....he was saracens then toloun and now...

Henson plays for the Cardiff Blues. Rumours are going about that they may release him at the end of the season as he hasn't set the world alight since joining them.

irishbucsfan

wonton wrote: »

I can't even remember what feckin team gavin henson is playing for now....he was saracens then toloun and now...

Cardiff. Whether they keep him or not though...

wonton

cheers didn't bother googling him to avoid seeing a row of google images with him posing like somone from jersey shore.

Webbs

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Who would the pontypridd brigend supporters be rowing in with now and what club are taking players from that area??

The Ospreys would be taking from the Bridgend area and the Blues from the Pontypridd area.
To be fair the Ospreys are the best of the regions for trying to be inclusive to the areas around them but its hard for me as a life long Bridgend fan to connect with a team based around Swansea and Neath

thomond2006

Cardiff are planning a serious clearout at the end of the season.

Gethin Jenkins (PR, Toulon), T Rhys Thomas (HK, Wasps), Martyn Williams (FL, retired), Dan Parks (FH, Connacht), Ceri Sweeney (FH), Casey Laulala (CT, Munster)

The above are all confirmed departures with Filise, Tito, Molitika, Richie Rees, Sweeney, Henson and Blair expected to leave too.

They have only signed Jason Tovey from Dragons so far, they made no signings last summer.

Fishooks12

thomond2006 wrote: »

Cardiff are planning a serious clearout at the end of the season.

Gethin Jenkins (PR, Toulon), T Rhys Thomas (HK, Wasps), Martyn Williams (FL, retired), Dan Parks (FH, Connacht), Ceri Sweeney (FH), Casey Laulala (CT, Munster)

The above are all confirmed departures with Filise, Tito, Molitika, Richie Rees, Sweeney, Henson and Blair expected to leave too.

They have only signed Jason Tovey from Dragons so far, they made no signings last summer.

Sweeny might be at her majesty's pleasure this time next year!

Otacon

thomond2006 wrote: »

Cardiff are planning a serious clearout at the end of the season.

Are they planning or is it being imposed on them with the cap and players getting better offers abroad?

thomond2006

Otacon wrote: »

Are they planning or is it being imposed on them with the cap and players getting better offers abroad?

Imposed on them for both the reasons you've said above.

andrewdcs

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Good point hadn't thought about that.

No way the likes of Sarries/Tigers/Northampton are keeping within the 4 million

I met some club backroom staff of a club I obviously wont name who went through a list of about 10 things they do to get around salary caps, rental of players homes i.e. the player pays £50 rent on a £400 per week flat etc. was a favourite.
None of it illegal, or anything loads of clubs arnt doing, but if caps are making clubs go "off spec" to get quality players, its going to end in dodgy accounting implosion a la enron, rangers etc.

CatFromHue

Jonathan Davies has signed a new contract with Lanelli as did Adam Jones with The Ospreys so they're not all leaving.

There are 6 Williams, 3 Jones, 4 Davies (5 if you include Gomer-Davies), and 3 Thomas's in Lanelli's squad!

Cardiff have 5 Williams, 2 Jones, 3 Davies, but just the 1 Thomas.

What a funny country Wales is :P

cp

Clareman wrote: »

Whatever about the league or finances, for the Welsh national team this isn't a bad thing, they get their established players getting game time in a competitive league while making space for new up and coming talent game time in a competitive league while keeping their finances in check.

Think you're being a bit premature there, Will take 2-3 years for this to really kick in with regards to the national team, That's when you'll see the true effect - there'll be no more trips to Gdansk prior to the 6N if half your players cant get released from club duty...

Read somewhere that a ton of the young Scarlets players are also out of contract/have 1 year left to go.. Looks to me like a game of who-blinks-first with the WRU on central contracts.

Winters

Important to remember also that unlike here, all four (well three and a half) of the regional teams have to operate financially independant of the WRU. They only get funding for the academies I think.

The WRU wants them to pay the wages of the internationals even though they only get to use them when the WRU says so.

marco_polo

andrewdcs wrote: »

I met some club backroom staff of a club I obviously wont name who went through a list of about 10 things they do to get around salary caps, rental of players homes i.e. the player pays £50 rent on a £400 per week flat etc. was a favourite.
None of it illegal, or anything loads of clubs arnt doing, but if caps are making clubs go "off spec" to get quality players, its going to end in dodgy accounting implosion a la enron, rangers etc.

The regions imposed the salary cap upon themselves though, through Regional Rugby Wales (RRW), so I don't think that they will be trying to get around it.

thomond2006

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3825_7578641,00.html

Dragons to release eight players, including Martyn Thomas.

I think this is a very worrying trend for the Pro12.

desertcircus

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3825_7578641,00.html

Dragons to release eight players, including Martyn Thomas.

I think this is a very worrying trend for the Pro12.

Agreed: the last thing we need is for the regular season to turn into a contest between Leinster, Ulster and Munster to decide who has to play an away semi this year. The Welsh regions are looking more and more worrying.

Let's bring in a couple of SA teams...

[Jackass]

It's pretty amazing alright.

Perhaps the on a positive note, a lot of these players may have been on wages that the clubs simply can't afford, and that is why the salary cap is there, because teams like Ospreys were living well beyond their means, and afaik, all of the welsh teams had been living in the red for some time now.

The smart thing to do would be to release players earning too much, balance the budget so that you can afford to give reasonable wages to players coming through and high wages to a few select players.

Definitely the Welsh regions are going to be less competetive in the short term, but they have good youth systems and some very good young players in the national side, I'd say when they have their books in order they will become more competetive again, but certainly a backward step for the Welsh, but not terminal imo.

Another major concern is looking at Cardiff moving back games to Arms Park. (and I read on a Cardiff fans site that they preder arms park as Cardiff City Stadium is "way outside the city" - having been to all 3 of the stadiums in Cardiff, Cardiff City Stadium is a 5 minute cab ride from the Millenium stadium, and is served regularly by busses, and is not in an industrial estate in the mountains somewhere....) Moving stadium is a massive step backwards, but the one thing I can never ever understand is how the crowd numbers in Wales are so so bad! The national team are incredibly popular, it's their "national sport" but no one is embracing the professional teams....

That is the number one problem, and they need to sort out a massive marketing inititive and also a very smart ticketing strategy, as without the fans, a club is nothing, we pay for everything, and that's their biggest problem.

justsomebloke

I'm starting to scratch my head here, as I really can't fathom what is actually going on. There are only a limited amount of teams for professional rugby players to actually play for so where are all these meant to be going. I would of assumed that if less money was being offered then at least some of them would of taken the money on offer as they might find it hard to find a club after being let go or even 'retired' from prospect of international rugby if that had been a stumbling block

It's beginning to look like the £3.5 million is actually just a random figure and the clubs don't actually have next nor near the figure to play with.