Why the need to play at loud volume ??

Rigsby

I am talking here about your small average pub venue as against a major concert venue like the "O2".

I have long since taken to bringing ear plugs to gigs, to try to hold on to what little hearing I have left. The reason as to why it is necessary to play so loud has always puzzled me. Even with the band I'm in at present, I am constantly asking the others..."lets try it at a lower volume lads." At this stage the lads seem to have realised that the music can sound much clearer when played at lower volume, as apart from a sheet of indistinguishable sound coming at you like a tsunami. At our last two gigs we dropped the volume below our usual. All the band members agreed it sounded better and we received no negative feed back because of it. Granted, there has to be some volume, and every venue will be different, but is "raise the roof" sound, that can be heard outside at fifty meters really necessary ???

I can foresee the usual arguments already, like "XYZ type of music needs to be played loud", or "it's up to the soundman.." Perhaps, but why does the soundman feel the need to force people to listen at the volumes that I describe above ??

Granted, I'll never see twenty again, but even at that age ( back in the Jurassic period ), I still had the same opinion.


Anyone else feel the same ?

Yawns

The very same tbh. Many a times me and mates have walked out of smaller venues due to not being able to hear the music properly, it's just a clash of noise.

If in a pub and we can't talk without standing on someone's shoulder and yelling in their ears, I leave too. I cba to sit through that. There is 1 band near me that actually plays too low tho, but he will turn it up a bit if asked, then it's better. If you're in the back you can barely hear.

Rigsby

Yawns wrote: »

There is 1 band near me that actually plays too low

A rare find indeed !! :pac:

Yawns

Yeah it is. The one and only I have ever come across

If you're at the back you can't hear them at all. You'd want to be up close. They are a good band too. I think they are low cos it's an older man doing the main signing with his son and his son's friend. But they are very good and will turn up the volume when asked. The thing that puzzles me is they play there regularly and still set it so low in the beginning even tho they get asked to turn it up every time

bogwalrus

Its simple:

a crap band sounds better loud.

Venues with crap acoustics use Volume to make up for the ****e sound.

Bad sound engineers use volume to make up for their lack of sound engineering skills.

I do know of two Irish bands that are quite good and EXTREMELY LOUD at all their live gigs. This is because they are deaf.

Rigsby

bogwalrus wrote: »

Its simple:

a crap band sounds better loud.

Venues with crap acoustics use Volume to make up for the ****e sound.

Bad sound engineers use volume to make up for their lack of sound engineering skills.

I do know of two Irish bands that are quite good and EXTREMELY LOUD at all their live gigs. This is because they are deaf.

I'd agree with most of this, though I too know of good bands who are very loud. Perhaps if enough people let a band know that their ears were being blasted off, they might ( though it's doubtful ) get the message.


It is not just live bands either. I was once at a 21st party where the DJ was playing at a ridiculously loud volume. The person whose birthday it was, asked him three times to lower it. Each time it was lowered a tiny (almost unnoticeable) fraction, only to be hired up again within about five minutes.

I'm at a loss to understand why.

Herb Powell

Surprised no one has mentioned that any band that uses a drumkit has a minimum volume to play at.
Drums are loud.

Rigsby

Herb Powell wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned that any band that uses a drumkit has a minimum volume to play at.
Drums are loud.

Another old chestnut of an excuse that always comes up. Drums are not loud, drummers are , and a band has to compensate for that, but does this mean that a band playing a small venue (as in your average pub) has to use the maximum volume to play at. If the answer is yes, then someone needs to have a word with the drummer IMO. Band members trying to out do each other volume wise, instead of playing together as a unit, seems to be half the problem.

TedNewgent

Rigsby wrote: »

Another old chestnut of an excuse that always comes up. Drums are not loud, drummers are , and a band has to compensate for that, but does this mean that a band playing a small venue (as in your average pub) has to use the maximum volume to play at. If the answer is yes, then someone needs to have a word with the drummer IMO. Band members trying to out do each other volume wise, instead of playing together as a unit, seems to be half the problem.

but if you hit the drums softly you wont get a good sound from them im a drummer and we have never got any complaints about volume, but saying that when we are in smaller pubs we bring an electric kit, but its still not as good a sound as an acoustic kit so with drums. The quieter your go the less quality is in the sound.

Rigsby

TedNewgent wrote: »

but if you hit the drums softly you wont get a good sound from them im a drummer and we have never got any complaints about volume, but saying that when we are in smaller pubs we bring an electric kit, but its still not as good a sound as an acoustic kit so with drums. The quieter your go the less quality is in the sound.

I never said that you need to hit the drums softly, I do realise there is a minimum, but playing like "Animal" from the Muppets, song after song is not the way to go either. There is, or should be, a happy medium.

Rigsby

TedNewgent wrote: »

we have never got any complaints about volume,

People often dont want to be seen as a wet blanket or a kill joy, so generally they are reluctant to say anything. This does not mean that they actually prefer "jetplane at take off" volume.

alandublin33

many a good band has let themselves down by playing too loud , usually its the drums that drown out vocals and everythings else for that matter , and I am talking about smaller venues with low ceilings in particular , so bands ! get a sound maaaaan ! or face clearing out a venue time and time again.

TedNewgent

Rigsby wrote: »

I never said that you need to hit the drums softly, I do realise there is a minimum, but playing like "Animal" from the Muppets, song after song is not the way to go either. There is, or should be, a happy medium.

i agree with that but most people don't realize that you just cant hit them softly

rcaz

It's a case of the musicians misunderstanding their equipment and their context, right?

Re: Drummers, how many drum kits at small gigs do you reckon are tuned well? Like a badly tuned snare that only sounds useful if you beat the **** out of it... Or a tom that only sounds 'full' when you hit it hard enough to shake the whole kit. If the drummers in these bands tuned their kits properly they'd be able to play much softer and get all that full rock sound they wanted right? Maybe it's one of those things that's hard to realise how wrong you were till you see someone do it perfectly... But you know when you see those drummers who can tear your face off with a snare pattern using their fingers and wrists alone? I went to see The Roots a few years ago, spent the whole show staring open-mouthed at ?uestlove, then went home and learned how to tune drums :P

And what about when the band turns up to the 200 capacity venue with a Vox AC30 and a Fender Deluxe? If the volume's at 2-3 on one of those you're probably louder than the PA system. But of course they need to turn way up for t3h toanz, right?

TedNewgent

Rigsby wrote: »

People often dont want to be seen as a wet blanket or a kill joy, so generally they are reluctant to say anything. This does not mean that they actually prefer "jetplane at take off" volume.

we often ask the landlord at the start of a night to let us know if we are to loud I'm not defending all bands I've heard plenty of stupidly loud bands im just saying when it comes to drums the most a band can do is set the sound level to match them

benestoria2

if the music is too loud your too old simple as!

rcaz

benestoria2 wrote: »

if the music is too loud your too old simple as!

Now now. Read the charter, be nice. And don't be stupid.

Rigsby

benestoria2 wrote: »

if the music is too loud your too old simple as!

LOL !! Well, that's what some might say alright, but IMO it is yet another chestnut of an excuse that's trotted out now and then, to try to explain (unsuccssfully) why bands feel the need to play at a loud volume.

I know lots of people who are much younger than I, who agree with me. Also, as I stated in the first post, I have held this view from a young age.

bogwalrus

One other point.

If your experience is at some of the mid sized music venues in Dublin then it is completely the sound engineers fault for the extreme loudness. I have been and played at a few of these venues in the last few years and i must say some of the worst sound engineers i have ever encountered. So much so that we complained to music promoters about the inxperience of these engineers. Cork seems to have a higher quality of engineer for their mid sized venues where you probably wont encounter the "too loud issue".

A good sound engineer will tell the band to turn down on stage to allow a good balance for monitors so he can turn up and down front of house if necessary etc.

Rigsby

bogwalrus wrote: »

One other point.

If your experience is at some of the mid sized music venues in Dublin then it is completely the sound engineers fault for the extreme loudness. I have been and played at a few of these venues in the last few years and i must say some of the worst sound engineers i have ever encountered. So much so that we complained to music promoters about the inxperience of these engineers. Cork seems to have a higher quality of engineer for their mid sized venues where you probably wont encounter the "too loud issue".

A good sound engineer will tell the band to turn down on stage to allow a good balance for monitors so he can turn up and down front of house if necessary etc.

I'm sure you are correct in what you say. It seems wrong that a paying audience should be at the mercy of a "cowboy" sound engineer where volume is concerned though. At the end of the day, it is the band's reputation that's at stake here, so they should have some input. Perhaps a friend of the band could advise from the floor. After all, you dont need a degree in sound engineering to tell you that your ears are bleeding from excessive volume.

ElectricTaurus

Normally while playing we rely to the sound guys as I cannot really hear at what volume the PA it's blasting.

Regarding the initial question in my band case I can say that we play loud for different reasons:

Genre: we play Stoner/Doom normally it's a high distored/fuzzy style of music.

Guitar: to get the right tone I need to push my amps as I rely mostly on the Amp(Orange 30W ADTH) distortion, bass player need to adjust accordingly.

Drummer: due to the style he need pretty much to hit hard for keeping up with Guits and bass.

I don't think is a question of age, I hate when I'm going to listen a Classic blues or Jazz outfit and they are loud.

What really annoys me is going in a pub for a pint and a chat with a friend and the music is so loud that you cannot talk.

Correctly if I'am wrong but by legislation there should be a threshold in a public bar/venue of 70/75dB?

ciaranmac

I always thought it was the pub owners. Louder music (or TV) means less chat and consequently more drinking.

Even a TV on mute stops people talking.

rcaz

ElectricTaurus wrote: »

Guitar: to get the right tone I need to push my amps as I rely mostly on the Amp(Orange 30W ADTH) distortion, bass player need to adjust accordingly.

Do you really need all 30 of those watts though? Wouldn't a Tiny Terror or something be way more suited to it if you're looking for all power-amp distortion?

bogwalrus

Rigsby wrote: »

I'm sure you are correct in what you say. It seems wrong that a paying audience should be at the mercy of a "cowboy" sound engineer where volume is concerned though. At the end of the day, it is the band's reputation that's at stake here, so they should have some input.

Usually when your at a gig where a bad engineer is at the helm that band make that known with continuous complaints. An audience will usually pick up on whether a band are having issues with sound on stage. When it comes to off stage it is very hard for a band to know what the situation is really unless the band likes to wander into the crowd and can hear for themselves or by listening to support etc.

The reality is that these mid sized venues dont want to be paying the cash for a good in house engineer. I think the going rate a night is 80euro which i dont think is a good motivator.

For bigger gigs bands should really have their own engineer that knows their songs inside out.


Once again though the loudness issue is really down to an inadequate engineer. Its not the bands fault unless the engineer is sick of them asking to be "louder, louder" and just caves in to their annoying demands.

ElectricTaurus

@Rcaz

The tiny terror now is a dream or something similar, the AD30TC is a beast and to say it all I don't really need the full 30W.

I don't know how people go to gig with a 50/100W in a small venue, I have to keep my master volume usually around 4/5 if a go up somebody will end up deaf.

I had the pleasure to record Ben Prevo and seen him playing live he always use small Gibson/Fender vintage amps 10/12W and when proper mic give you a nice growl.

bogwalrus

ElectricTaurus wrote: »

@Rcaz

The tiny terror now is a dream or something similar, the AD30TC is a beast and to say it all I don't really need the full 30W.

I don't know how people go to gig with a 50/100W in a small venue, I have to keep my master volume usually around 4/5 if a go up somebody will end up deaf.

I had the pleasure to record Ben Prevo and seen him playing live he always use small Gibson/Fender vintage amps 10/12W and when proper mic give you a nice growl.

The AD30TC sounds like its 200W. I have come across a few 10W that pack a serious punch, trying to remember a vox 10W. It was louder then the marshal 50w tsl.

kingofpain

ElectricTaurus wrote: »

I don't think is a question of age, I hate when I'm going to listen a Classic blues or Jazz outfit and they are loud.

What really annoys me is going in a pub for a pint and a chat with a friend and the music is so loud that you cannot talk.

+100. I usually asks to turn volume down, most staff understands completely. The pointless TV droning is utter madness, last time I visited International (upstairs) that was the case. Acoustics are also just insane some places, Market Bar fx, when packed everyone is screaming at each other.

When in town on my own I use in-ear headphones to survive with personal soundtrack. Stores in particular blasts sh** out, incl. commercial breaks from radio stations. Peace.

Rigsby

kingofpain wrote: »

+100. I usually asks to turn volume down, most staff understands completely. The pointless TV droning is utter madness, last time I visited International (upstairs) that was the case. Acoustics are also just insane some places, Market Bar fx, when packed everyone is screaming at each other.

When in town on my own I use in-ear headphones to survive with personal soundtrack. Stores in particular blasts sh** out, incl. commercial breaks from radio stations. Peace.

+1 to all.


Also, have you ever noticed that even in the toilets of some bars and restaurants, you still cant get away from the muzak blasting out ? :rolleyes:

eoin5

I find myself frustrated with the sound at gigs a lot, especially the stupidly loud bass explosion that squeezes out of a badly gated kick drum. The drummer may as well be headbutting the mic.

rcaz

Rigsby wrote: »

Also, have you ever noticed that even in the toilets of some bars and restaurants, you still cant get away from the muzak blasting out ? :rolleyes:

I was at Gruff Rhys in the Sugar Club a while ago (few years I think it was...) and they have speakers in the jacks so you don't miss a thing. It's not super loud or anything, quite cool as opposed to obnoxious.

cloptrop

Herb Powell wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned that any band that uses a drumkit has a minimum volume to play at.
Drums are loud.

Nirvana unplugged , Kurt told Dave to play the drums quieter so many times , Dave got pissed off cause he didnt think he could play any quieter . The producer or someone got him special sticks for playing quietly . Great album .

Dire straights used to always demand they were lowered down to a level that could allow people in the pub to talk whilst having their pints.

Havnt been in years but Eamonn Dorans in Temple bar used to be so loud and so small ceilingwise you couldnt tell what even genre of music was being played . They had a sound engineer but I think he was long deaf from sitting in there every night .

Rigsby

cloptrop wrote: »

Nirvana unplugged , Kurt told Dave to play the drums quieter so many times , Dave got pissed off cause he didnt think he could play any quieter . The producer or someone got him special sticks for playing quietly . Great album .

Dire straights used to always demand they were lowered down to a level that could allow people in the pub to talk whilst having their pints.
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Where there's a will, there's a way.. !! Unfortunately the will is seldom if ever there.