Deflectors - Closures/ComReg Consultation [Merged]

The Westerner

I sent an email to the DCENR enquiring if the UHF retransmission (deflector) sites would continue broadcasting after ASO on 24 October 2012.

The reply received said that Comreg have renewed 6 licenses for 2012 under S.I. 445 of 2009 so far and all would expire on 31 December this year.

So it would appear that some UHF analogue transmissions may continue for a while after ASO. Wondering will local politicans looking for votes agitate for deflectors to stay on the air in 2013 in their constituencies?

Kristopherus

No. Deflectors are a dead duck. With Sky crawling the country with door to door sales people and the more astute people opting for alternate systems, there will be very little demand for deflectors. In most cases the deflector operators are cash strapped because contributions have almost ceased and are only waiting for an excuse to close down.

watty

They are dead. I wonder how many of the 6 will keep going till the end.
Freesat HD (even if you don't have an HDTV) is a once off cost and is FAR more channels at FAR better quality.

It's a disgrace this illegality was legalised and is still legal and getting renewed now that BBC, ITV, C4 and Five are all free to air.

Over 100,000 households now have have Freesat.

marno21

watty wrote: »

They are dead. I wonder how many of the 6 will keep going till the end.
Freesat HD (even if you don't have an HDTV) is a once off cost and is FAR more channels at FAR better quality.

It's a disgrace this illegality was legalised and is still legal and getting renewed now that BBC, ITV, C4 and Five are all free to air.

Over 100,000 households now have have Freesat.

I don't see it as a disgrace, considering how bad most telecommunications is in Ireland, it's surprising that such a system existed 25 years ago, when some people in Ireland still can't even get RTE. Regardless of how dead they are now, they were a godsend in their infancy for those living in two channel land. They had a very high uptake in most of their broadcast areas and they were still useful up until Channel 4 was made FTA in 2008. There was no Freesat HD in the 90s. It's not surprising that some are still used in certain areas (I know that the ones around here are dead, so I'd imagine they're all in Donegal/Mayo).

watty

I used to live in UK. In moving to Rural Ireland I accepted that there was only RTE1 & RTE2 rather than setting up illegal transmitters and bribing politicians to legalise it.

The Attitude that "sure it was grand" is the same attitude that has lead to so much corruption, lack of carrier neutral ducts, septic tanks and polluted wells instead of mains water and sewerage, lack of proper treatment of sewerage. lack of Broadband. Poor building insulation due to Politicians giving in to builders/developers. Lack of proper financial regulation, regulation of eircom and many other ills.

You need PROPER long term planning, honest politicians passing good laws and people respecting the law. It's OUR country. We are not rebelling against the Colonial Powers anymore. So lets not do stupid stuff like so called "Deflectors" (unplanned, uncoordinated illegal retransmissions). In 1983 or 1984 I was involved in trying to set up a legal scheme for BBC & ITV in Clare, Limerick and Kerry. But people wanted to take short cuts so I took nothing more to do with it.

There WERE legal ways to do it. Even MMDS while technically legal broke the band plan for Europe and was done in a totally ship shod manner. If it had been done properly then we would not be exporting millions every year in profits out of the Country to Sky.

There is nothing to laud about the "deflectors". A typical rubbish Irish solution to an "Irish" problem that helped hinder development than help.

Why was RTE Analogue Coverage so poor? Why was and is Telecoms so poor? People voting in corrupt politicians that only interested in winning the next election instead of improving the nation.

marno21

watty wrote: »

I used to live in UK. In moving to Rural Ireland I accepted that there was only RTE1 & RTE2 rather than setting up illegal transmitters and bribing politicians to legalise it.

The Attitude that "sure it was grand" is the same attitude that has lead to so much corruption, lack of carrier neutral ducts, septic tanks and polluted wells instead of mains water and sewerage, lack of proper treatment of sewerage. lack of Broadband. Poor building insulation due to Politicians giving in to builders/developers. Lack of proper financial regulation, regulation of eircom and many other ills.

You need PROPER long term planning, honest politicians passing good laws and people respecting the law. It's OUR country. We are not rebelling against the Colonial Powers anymore. So lets not do stupid stuff like so called "Deflectors" (unplanned, uncoordinated illegal retransmissions). In 1983 or 1984 I was involved in trying to set up a legal scheme for BBC & ITV in Clare, Limerick and Kerry. But people wanted to take short cuts so I took nothing more to do with it.

There WERE legal ways to do it. Even MMDS while technically legal broke the band plan for Europe and was done in a totally ship shod manner. If it had been done properly then we would not be exporting millions every year in profits out of the Country to Sky.

There is nothing to laud about the "deflectors". A typical rubbish Irish solution to an "Irish" problem that helped hinder development than help.

Why was RTE Analogue Coverage so poor? Why was and is Telecoms so poor? People voting in corrupt politicians that only interested in winning the next election instead of improving the nation.

Am I right in saying that Southcoast was setup because the locals wanted cable but Cork Multichannel (or whatever they were called), refused to cable out that far? There was a legal way to do it, but they refused, and the locals had enough, and setup their own system. They were hardly interfering with licenced services, and the system they had was advanced and it worked the way they wanted it.

As someone who has viewed both MMDS and a deflector service before (this was before ITV + C4 were on free to air sat, and some of it even before BBC was FTA on sat), the deflector service was very useful, and cheap. MMDS had poor quality, regular outages and interference and was ridiculously overpriced. Sure, the deflectors weren't perfect either, but they didn't expect monthly payments and they actually fixed problems when they occured.

I know a lot of ex-deflector customers who have migrated to FTA since, and they would go back to deflectors in an instant. The simplicity of 8 channels from 1 to 8, no flicking between inputs, no two remotes and no dealing with TP changes etc.

dowtchaboy

marno21 wrote: »

I know a lot of ex-deflector customers who have migrated to FTA since, and they would go back to deflectors in an instant. The simplicity of 8 channels from 1 to 8, no flicking between inputs, no two remotes and no dealing with TP changes etc.

I have to answer these questions every day (to the same person):
Which external is BBC on?
..... Which remote do I use to change external?
......... Which remote do I use to change satellite channel?
............... I can't find the volume control on this remote (what colour is it?).....

Yes we who have a reasonable grasp of technology find it difficult (and a little irritating) to understand those who don't get it - but that's OUR fault for not designing the systems right in the first place.
I'll bet there are people who would jump at the chance to buy a TV with 8 or 16 big illuminated buttons along the front, one per favourite TV station, that took care of all the source selection, satellite/terrestrial etc. just like there are people who wish they still made radios with one button per station (keeping it simple).

It wouldn't at all surprise me if Apple make another few hundred billion $ in a few months with a TV that costs twice what it should, but that responds to voice commands ("get RTE Two"....."record Corrie at Eight"...."go back two minutes"....."find Wallander on Internet"...) - complexity underneath but making the experience SIMPLE for the user.
(sorry - gone a bit OT....)

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

It's a disgrace this illegality was legalised.

What a ridiculous statement :rolleyes:

byte

I'd assume most/all deflectors take in UHF off-air from NI/UK Tx and retransmit the channels down to its target (hence the name).

After 24 Oct, there'll be no 4 channels to retransmit unless whoever maintains them installs some STB's and modulators? Ergo, the deflectors will go off anyway...

watty

A lot of them changed to Sky boxes and then Freesat years ago unless in an area with a great signal. Some even use DTT.

byte

watty wrote: »

A lot of them changed to Sky boxes and then Freesat years ago unless in an area with a great signal. Some even use DTT.

Oh... not really deflecting as I thought it so.

watty

The "Deflecting" was a euphemism since the beginning for most. A "Real" deflector is passive or at most a low gain amp and output on same channels but reversed polarity, i.e. H-> V or V -> H.
Most were/are real Transmitters from basic cobbled together CATV head ends to "transposer" or full "relay" designs. RLO TV in Limerick used Analogue Satellite for Channel 5.

Mike 1972

The Westerner wrote: »

So it would appear that some UHF analogue transmissions may continue for a while after ASO. Wondering will local politicans looking for votes agitate for deflectors to stay on the air in 2013 in their constituencies?

The continuance of deflectors for a few weeks after "ASO" is somewhat of an administrative oddity (absurdity even) but hardly of much significance in the overall scheme of things.

I cant see much of a political issue being made of it TBH. At this stage the rather short transition period in Ireland from Analouge to DTT. The use of a completly different standard to the UK and the fact that Saorview isint being carried on all relays are likely to upset more people.

Dont think theres a lot of interest for continuing even amongst the deflector operators themselves. It was a great concept in its day but its day is now past and even its most enthusiastic supporters largely accept this. I suspect they will use either the October or December deadlines as an opportunity to slip away quietly without much fuss. Or maybe some might use the October-December period to team up with local installers of Combi systems to run promotional videos which might possibly not be fully in accordance with their licence conditions although COMREG are probably not going to be too bothered.

watty

But though some people won't get Saorview the coverage with "perfect picture" is already 97%. If you wanted Analogue TG4 the official coverage was 95% and for TV3 was about 80%. Perfect (noise & interference free) Analogue coverage on RTE1, RTE2, TG4 and TV3 was always much less than RTE's claimed coverage. With Digital they can't fudge the coverage figures. This is one of the reasons why Pay TV has reached 82% in Ireland.

Also in the next week or so Saorsat will be announced (no TV3 or 3e, but the people needing it likely only have TV3 now if they have Sky. 3e is the previous C6, so only ever on Sky & UPC till now).

In areas with no DTT a dual feed with Freesat HD and Saorsat with PVR is best. Using "Multiswitch" rather than Diseqc so any number of rooms can be added (1 x PVR + 14 regular HD sat boxes all of which work with old CRT via SCART, HDTV not needed). A Multiswitch system can be expanded to several thousand TVs/Boxs if a suitable size dish is used.

Also possible is a licensed (and co-ordinated in a frequency plan) community DTT transmitter fed by Saorsat. If the BAI and Comreg had any imagination they would licence commercial Community DTT Mux(es) on these too allowing a community channel (with maybe CCTV security camera feeds of the site when nothing else to show) and Re-transmission of UK channels (Royalty must be paid to BBC, ITV, C4 and Five, but it's not much for a Community station. It was a condition of so called "Deflector" legalisation that they paid appropriate fees. FTA is NOT "Free to Carry". BBC World TV News and DW TV are Free To Carry but written permission is required. The normal UK channels on Freesat all need royalties, none are FTC.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

Also possible is a licensed (and co-ordinated in a frequency plan) community DTT transmitter fed by Saorsat. If the BAI and Comreg had any imagination they would licence commercial Community DTT Mux(es) on these too allowing a community channel (with maybe CCTV security camera feeds of the site when nothing else to show) and Re-transmission of UK channels (Royalty must be paid to BBC, ITV, C4 and Five, but it's not much for a Community station.

Its certainly possible to create a DTT based implementation of the deflector concept but its a bit late in the day to start exploring that route. DTT deflectors were mooted in a consultants report back in 1998 but nothing ever came of it. The BAI could have revisited it after their commercial DTT plans collapsed but seemingly didnt and the deflector groups themselves dont seem to have displayed much interest (maybe if Southcoast chose that route rather than the ill advised 11GHz fiasco they might still be around today) Some might contend that duplicating channels already available on satellite isint a particularly good use of UHF spectrum even if such spectrum is likely to be a plentiful comodity in Ireland for the foreseeable future.

Dunno if unencrypted broadcasting of security camera feeds is such a marvelous idea though. Apart from not being very interesting viewing (although not much worse than some of the "ten a penny" channels on satellite) I could imagine such a thing being wide open to mischief/pranksters

watty

There definitely will be facility for Licensed DTT transmission of Saorsat in Blackspots as "Self Help" Schemes. Such a scheme is because the normal Infrastructure provider will not build enough transmitters on "economic grounds".

It's only Duplication if you think the Entire UK Freeview and Irish Saorview are pointless because it's "wasting" UHF spectrum of stuff on Satellite.

Freesat, Saorsat and Fransat are schemes that exist to more or less duplicate PSB UHF Terrestrial content on DTT for people that can't get the DTT. By definition these Self Help Terrestrial schemes can re-use the same 4 Mux channels as some official repeater site or other community site as the Channels used would be RTENL / Comreg co-ordinated and and by definition low power directional aerials at the TX site.

It's not a DTT version of the Deflector concept, nor a version of MMDS or SCTV using DTT. It's Self Help Community scheme to duplicate the National Network in Black spots.

Since there IS a National Commercial DTT licence and any Commercial DTT operator by definition will not do ANYTHING for these black spots ever (c.f. TG4 coverage vs TV3 coverage on Analogue) I was musing if the BAI/Comreg could be persuaded to licence not just Mux 1 & 2 (for PSB duplication of main DTT using Saorsat as feed) but Mux 3 & Mux 4 for Community Commercial use.

These black spot Community schemes would of course have to spend MUCH more to add Tv3 & 3e as they would only be available via Sky and you need a more expensive Sky subscription and expensive 2 channel real time MPEG4 stat-mux encoder (to fit TV3 and 3e into same space as on Saorview).

All the people with Saorsat only could of course sue TV3 for breach of licence (as TV3 ought to pay to be on Saorsat), but since no-one with TG4 and no TV3 on analogue sued TV3 for Licence Breach and BAI did nothing (even though TV3 is in breach of Analogue licence since they started till 24th October 2012) you'd be in a weak position.

Dunno if unencrypted broadcasting of security camera feeds is such a marvelous idea though

Only of the isolated mast site, and only when the local community channel has no content. A throw-away passing idea.

Antenna

watty wrote: »

I used to live in UK. In moving to Rural Ireland I accepted that there was only RTE1 & RTE2 rather than setting up illegal transmitters and bribing politicians to legalise it.

As just one of many many examples - the UK introduced legal CB radio in 1981 in response to widespread illegal use of imported American CBs. The UK did not have to introduce CB then and could have told the public there is no CB radio allowed in this country, accept it and use a telephone or study for a amateur radio licence? but no they responded to illegality?

People in Dublin in the distant past did not accept they were only entitled to RTE TV and built in some cases massive height towers to receive UK UHF TV with good reception, in some cases regarded as a significant safety hazard. This lead to cable TV (carrying both UK and RTE channels) being allowed there.
Other cities and large towns then wanted cable TV since Dublin had got it. The demand for deflectors for other areas was really a continuance from this?

Antenna

watty wrote: »

In 1983 or 1984 I was involved in trying to set up a legal scheme for BBC & ITV in Clare, Limerick and Kerry. But people wanted to take short cuts so I took nothing more to do with it.

There WERE legal ways to do it.

I'm curious as to what exactly this legal scheme proposed back then was??

watty wrote: »

lack of Broadband

Many deflector/former deflector transmission sites are nowadays used for wireless broadband to sparsely populated rural areas who otherwise wouldn't have had it

watty

No, hardly any compared to overall masts, anyway the use of the mast isn't relevant.

For a start in 1980s no-one was paying Royalty to BBC, ITV etc. That was available at very low cost.
They where not even attempting to co-ordinate with RTE channel plan.
They were not building these to any published standard for Community Relays/Transposer etc.
They didn't even attempt to talk to Authorities.

The Westerner

According to articles in the Mayo News, Connaught Telegraph and Western People from a couple of weeks back, Mayo Community TV will cease broadcasting on May 1st next.

EDIT: interestingly enough if you like TV3 and dont subscribe to Sky or won't be doing so in the future, ASO (for TV3 only) for those in the Westport area is unofficially May 1st, as TV3 was provided there via the local deflector maintained by MC TV. TV3's analogue signal is not available via an RTENL site locally, only via DTT Saorview from the Castlebar relay on UHF channel 22.

Also lower areas of Westport town receive RTE1/2/TG4 from the Westport relay. This relay is not on the list for DTT upgrade, hence no TV3/3e. If Saorsat dont provide TV3/3e (discussion here), they wont be getting it back.

Antenna

The Westerner wrote: »

Mayo Community TV will cease broadcasting on May 1st next.

I came across an ad from a Castlebar satellite TV installer - G.A.V./Gavin Audio Video - which indicates September 2012 for closure of Castlebar Deflector

Don't lose your BBC TV
Are you ready for the switch off of the local TV deflector systems in September 2012. To recieve BBC, UTV, Ch4 etc click HERE

Antenna

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The continuance of deflectors for a few weeks after "ASO" is somewhat of an administrative oddity (absurdity even) but hardly of much significance in the overall scheme of things.

Deflector style TV services in the USA (they call them 'translators') are free to transmit analogue signals up until September 2015 (along with low power TV stations) when only then will it be mandatory for them to either convert to digital or close down - despite ASO for the main stations already happening there in 2009. An over 6 year difference! The only exceptions to this are ones on the high UHF channels if their spectrum was actually needed for the new users of high UHF channels they have to close (if no alternative channels available to move to) before then.

Its likely some of the remaining deflectors in the west of Ireland are serving people who have a 'satellite shadow' of 28.* East (I have seen it for example with forestry on top of a nearby hill obscuring the satellite LOS) and deflectors are the only way for them of receiving BBC/ITV/C4 ? - So some people (albeit a small number) may be at a big loss with the closure of them. There can be solutions but often very expensive (running long cables with in-line amplifiers from a distant dish) and needing access of neighbouring properties.

Of course many people with satellite (either FTA or sky) in the remaining deflector areas are still using deflector signals on 2nd/3rd etc TVs.
There was a huge boom in the County Cork area in FTA satellite sales and installations in the latter half of 2010 with UHF deflectors closure - obviously many many people had still been using it at that stage (most of the people using the SCTV 11GHz digital service got SKY with its closure, whilst the UHF deflector viewers got FTA satellite usually) .

I suspect that there are more viewers of the remaining TV deflectors than there are regular listeners within the republic of RTE's 252kHz long-wave radio (which isn't facing closure in 2012)!

The Westerner

Antenna wrote: »

I came across an ad from a Castlebar satellite TV installer - G.A.V./Gavin Audio Video - which indicates September 2012 for closure of Castlebar Deflector

Yes. I believe thats a deflector run by a company called Dropvale Ltd, (separate from MC TV) that covers the Castlebar area. Details in Comreg document here on them. The site is near to the RTENL mast on Croaghmoyle. Info here. Site is called Tawnycullawee.

The Cush

http://www.comreg.ie/publications/the_future_of_deflector_licensing_in_ireland.583.104043.p.html

watty

Typical Comreg Consultation. It actually says what they will do. They have decided no more deflector licences because you can get it via Freesat and only 4 of 6 renewals are in the post ASO spectrum.

marno21

One sentence of interest to me was:

The scheme permitted the provision of deflector services only in those geographic areas where a cable television service was unavailable

After looking through the deflector licenses, there are deflectors licensed for among other places, Three Rock Mountain, Cork Airport, Woodcock Hill and Rathfadden (Waterford), all licensed to Cablephone Communications Ltd

Some of these deflectors on high mountains have power allocations of 2.5 watts which makes me think that these deflector licenses were never taken seriously. (Source: http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/pres141299.pdf and http://www.wolfbane.com/articles/eitv.htm )

watty

They mean MMDS or cable actually.
But MMDS is for the chop AFTER the Deflectors (2014)

jabarrett35

Quick note Licence is spelt with a 'c' not a 's'. It's incorrect spelling really annoys me.

Charlie-Bravo

Hi Watty, interesting that you say MMDS is also for the chop - I have a UPC service over MMDS (Windgates transmitter, Wicklow). How would I go about seeing what license UPC has for MMDS and when it runs out?

PS - sorry for hijacking thread.

Alun

jabarrett35 wrote: »

Quick note Licence is spelt with a 'c' not a 's'. It's incorrect spelling really annoys me.

In UK English, the verb is 'to license', but the noun is 'licence'. In US English, both usages are spelt 'license'.

http://www.future-perfect.co.uk/grammartips/grammar-tip-license-licence.asp

Mike 1972

MMDS is widely expected to be for the chop because moist/all of the frequency range is being reallocated (Europe Wide) for other services. Also the take up rate for MMDS in many parts of the country (the South West being the main exception) has been far lower than originally (1989) envisaged meaning that UPC are unlikely to be too aggrieved even if means potentially losing part of their customer base.

I suppose in theory they could be offered a secondary allocation in the 11GHz band as a substitute although as it would involve completely reengineering their network. Building a host of new sites and replacing all their customers aerials I dont see them being too keen.

marno21 wrote: »

After looking through the deflector licenses, there are deflectors licensed for among other places, Three Rock Mountain, Cork Airport, Woodcock Hill and Rathfadden (Waterford), all licensed to Cablephone Communications Ltd

A subsidary of UPC IIRC

No transmissions were ever made pursuant to said licences

Mike 1972

Yep Castlebar has always been "independent" of the other two groups in Mayo.

Has the closure date for Castlebar been confirmed by the operators themselves rather than by unaffiliated installers/salespeople ?

jabarrett35

Alun wrote: »

In UK English, the verb is 'to license', but the noun is 'licence'. In US English, both usages are spelt 'license'.

http://www.future-perfect.co.uk/grammartips/grammar-tip-license-licence.asp

I quite agree it has become confusing, because of the use of US English and it can be difficult to remember which is the correct form. I have to check all the time. I recently forgot it became an s when writing licensing and not a c which is a basic mistake.

The Cush

astrofluff wrote: »

I have a UPC service over MMDS (Windgates transmitter, Wicklow). How would I go about seeing what license UPC has for MMDS and when it runs out.

From the current MMDS regulations

Continuance in force of licence

7. Subject to the provisions of these Regulations, every licence shall, unless
previously surrendered by the licensee, or unless or until it is revoked by the
Commission, and subject to any amendment or suspension thereof, continue in
force until 18 April 2014 and subject to such conditions and restrictions as are
prescribed in regard thereto by these Regulations and shall then expire, unless
renewed.

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/SI529of2003.pdf

Latest communication from Comreg on the future of MMDS - http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg1209.pdf

Trick of the Tail

jabarrett35 wrote: »

I quite agree it has become confusing, because of the use of US English and it can be difficult to remember which is the correct form. I have to check all the time. I recently forgot it became an s when writing licensing and not a c which is a basic mistake.

OT I know, but the easy way to remember is that its the same as 'advice' and 'advise'.

You advise someone (verb) and they then have your advice (noun).

A.

watty

Antenna wrote: »

I suspect that there are more viewers of the remaining TV deflectors than there are regular listeners within the republic of RTE's 252kHz long-wave radio (which isn't facing closure in 2012)!

Not true.

icdg

Okay, that's enough discussion of English grammer please.

As regards the deflectors, its high time they shut up shop, they should never have been allowed in the first place. The licencing was solely due the the 1997-2002 FF-PD government's dependence on Tom Guildea's vote. Its long become clear that the UK channels aren't going to be available on DTT, but Freesat is an available (if expensive) solution for most people in rural areas. In urban areas, which generally never had deflectors in the first place (and I'd imagine those licences mentioned by marno21 were simply issued in order to ensure none were ever started in these areas), there is generally cable for those who can't install Freesat because of restrictive covenants.

EDIT: Just noticed the second thread. Merged.

Sponge Bob

Shut them in October. They are a relic.

galtee boy

As regards the deflectors, its high time they shut up shop, they should never have been allowed in the first place.

Okay, agreed, their time is up and technology has long since made them unnecessary and redundant. But its easy for those who lived in cable land in the early eighties, to say that they should never been allowed in the first place. Down here in the "sticks" we had only RTE 1 and 2 in those days, analogue satellite in those early days was a joke and didn't have the UK terrestrials on it anyway, and I rememember when the local rebeaming service was set up in 1982/83 and a local tv shop owner went up the Galtee mountains and rebeamed BBC1,2, HTV Wales and S4C to the town, it was amazing and the whole area was over the moon to be in "multichannel" land like our cousins in the "big" cities ! For ten years or more, that system kept us going until SKY digital came along and slowly but surely, the UK terrestrials stated popping up on it. So farewell to the deflectors/rebeamers all around the country and thanks for bringing multichannel tv to the country bumpkins, when nobody else would bother their arse doing it.

watty

Umm.. This is Ireland and it was "Foreign" TV. It was never a "right" for anyone. I gave up 4 channel UK when I moved to Limerick in 1983. I never complained and when I did 3 times move to houses with cable I cancelled as the quality was poor and I didn't want to pay more than the TV licence for TV. Eventually I got Sky (to get the box cheap) but cancelled eventually.

Lack of so called "Multichannel" doesn't make people inferior.

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

Umm.. This is Ireland and it was "Foreign" TV. It was never a "right" for anyone. I gave up 4 channel UK when I moved to Limerick in 1983. I never complained and when I did 3 times move to houses with cable I cancelled as the quality was poor and I didn't want to pay more than the TV licence for TV. Eventually I got Sky (to get the box cheap) but cancelled eventually.

Lack of so called "Multichannel" doesn't make people inferior.

Perhaps for you but not for many.
If there was no call for those services, then they wouldn't have existed.

Your "inferior" comment makes no sense.

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

Not true.

There's no way of knowing either way but if the number of calls made to RTE when they shut the MW services are anything to go by ( i.e you could count them on one hand and still have fingers left over) then Antenna is possibly correct.

oscarBravo

I'm curious where the "shouldn't have been licensed" comments are coming from. The ECJ ruled that it was wrong to deny them a licence - what are the arguments against them?

Sponge Bob

Should not have been in the 1980s ( we had statutory MMDS)
Should have been in the 1990s when it was obvious MMDS would never be universal
Should not have been post 2005 with Freesat services available.

Had we not cacked up MMDS in the late 1980s in other words.

The Cush

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm curious where the "shouldn't have been licensed" comments are coming from. The ECJ ruled that it was wrong to deny them a licence - what are the arguments against them?

This from a Dáil question in 1999

243. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for Public Enterprise the position concerning the licensing of deflector systems; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18271/99]

Minister for Public Enterprise (Mrs. O'Rourke): Following a review by the Director of Telecommunications Regulation of the responses to the consultation paper on deflector licensing which she issued in May 1999, the director has concluded that there should be a short-term licensing scheme for deflectors. Such a scheme will require enabling regulations to be made by the director with my consent. I have not yet received any proposals from the director in relation to such regulations. However, by virtue of High Court judgments in 1995 and 1998, the director is obliged to reconsider the application from Southcoast Community Television. The director has decided to license southcoast on a short-term basis and has submitted enabling draft regulations to me for my consent. Those draft regulations are currently under examination within my Department and I will respond to the director as soon as possible.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1999/09/29/00157.asp#N2

watty

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

There's no way of knowing either way but if the number of calls made to RTE when they shut the MW services are anything to go by ( i.e you could count them on one hand and still have fingers left over) then Antenna is possibly correct.

In this country 100 people will complain to each other for every one that makes an official complaint. Or maybe more.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

Umm.. This is Ireland and it was "Foreign" TV. It was never a "right" for anyone.

You know back in the 1980's this was the sort of thing the authorities in the USSR (and other "Eastern bloc") countries were coming out with to justify the measures they were taking to deny their citizens access to various "western" radio stations.

Lack of so called "Multichannel" doesn't make people inferior.

The rather unkind German phrase "Tal der Ahnungslosen" might suggest otherwise. :P

watty

Not the same thing at all.

No-one is jamming UK terrestrial or Satellite transmissions, nor was there ever any prohibition on reception.

OTH Iran is operating transmitters in Cuba to jam satellite uplinks and local hill top transmitters to jam satellite Downlinks.

That, not lack of rebroadcast Foreign transmissions (illegally originally) in a State is the appropriate comparison. I know of no similar scenario to Ireland where TV dealers deliberately flouted the law to redistribute (without Royalty payments either) Foreign TV. Other countries did Satellite, MMDS and cable properly in the rare occasions were there was a demand for Foreign TV. But the only "right" is that no-one should deliberately jam Foreign transmission. Even the much later TV without Frontier directive gives no-one an intrinsic right to have all EU channels, only that it's not illegal to receive what you can get, it's not to be jammed, and it doesn't even cover Redistribution. Redistribution or Retransmission STILL needs and always did need two Permissions: 1) The Written permission of the source channel (even if Free To Carry such as BBC World, BBC1 isn't and never has been Free To Carry outside UK, it has to be paid for) and 2) Licence from the Local State to Transmit and/or carry the Channel.

Even though Cable is now deregulated (anyone can now start a Cable TV company without a licence) you still need Irish State permission to carry a channel and written Permission from the Channel.

Personal Reception of "overspill" Terrestrial or Free To Air Satellite transmission has never needed anything more than an Irish Reception Licence. There used to be a separate one for Satellite, that's not needed anymore (but Radios used to need a Reception Licence).

With the "overspill" from 28.2E it's all a moot point now. Of course in 10 or 15 years time maybe UK channels will be moving to Ka band spot beams and we will lose Free UK TV. I'll enjoy it while we have it.

The German situation doesn't apply either as no-one is seriously arguing that an Evil Dictatorship created Irish Independence in 1922 and that secretly when the Stazi isn't listening we discuss re-unification with the UK. We left the UK, as our decision in 1922, 14 years before UK TV started, and more finally unilaterally became a Republic in 1937 or 1948 (depending on your political leanings). UK TV stopped in 1939 and was hardly restarted by 1948.

The "powers" divided Germany (not the Germans) and Berlin in 1945. The Berlin Wall was started in August 1961. Unlike the rest of Eastern Bloc, East Germany did use "regular" VHF-FM which started in 1949. Britain actually opposed reunification in 1990. The French, British and Americans as much as the Russians actually wanted the division of Germany at the end off WWII. As a permanent arrangement.

Vergleicht man 1960 Deutschland und dann Irland in den 1980er Jahren, glaube ich nicht, ist vernünftig.

watty

Of course the Department is probably legally obliged to licence properly engineered "Community Self help" DTT mux transmitters where there is no Saorview coverage. They may or may not be obliged to licence the Commercial Mux allocations to these Community groups before any Commercial DTT launches (it may never launch). They would also be obliged to licence the Commercial Muxes if the rest of the Country does have a Commercial DTT platform.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

I know of no similar scenario to Ireland where TV dealers deliberately flouted the law to redistribute (without Royalty payments either) Foreign TV.

Don't know about TV dealers themselves, but even before RAI lost their TV monopoly in Italy there was quite a lot of unauthorised rebroadcasting of Italian-language TV that was sourced from outside the country, mainly TSI from Switzerland and TV Koper-Copadistria from Yugoslavia, the latter to the extent which was so extensive that it was quasi-national and could be viewed in Rome. Neither broadcaster really complained for it helped bring in advertising revenue for both of them, allowing TSI not to be so dependent on subsidies from the rest of the Swiss, and in TV K-C's case, an irony of a broadcaster based in a self-proclaimed Socialist country providing a service to an audience many times its intended size and gaining advertising hard currency in the process.

TV K-C is now back to being a regional broadcaster in Italian speaking parts of Slovenia, but RSI (as it is now) I think are still popular in northern parts of Italy particularly around Milan mainly because their news output is regarded as more trustworthy than those on mainstream television in the country.

endakenny

Antenna wrote: »

Its likely some of the remaining deflectors in the west of Ireland are serving people who have a 'satellite shadow' of 28.* East (I have seen it for example with forestry on top of a nearby hill obscuring the satellite LOS) and deflectors are the only way for them of receiving BBC/ITV/C4 ? - So some people (albeit a small number) may be at a big loss with the closure of them. There can be solutions but often very expensive (running long cables with in-line amplifiers from a distant dish) and needing access of neighbouring properties.

Surely, trees wouldn't be strong enough to obstruct satellite signals. Would they?