Parking fees actually losing money for Councils??

woodoo

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pressure-to-scrap-parking-fees-as-councils-lose-money-3026973.html

According to this piece in the Indo a lot of the councils are spending more to operate these systems than they are taking in. This came as a big shock to me. I always assumed that parking fees were a real money spinner for the Councils. I have a strong dislike for them and tend to drive 10 mins to another town where there is a free carpark and do my shopping and pass the afternoon.

I just find it such a chore to try and find a parking space, bring change, find a machine, pay the money, then go back to the car with the ticket etc etc.

Should they be done away with?

n97 mini

I was surprised to hear what has been going on. I heard someone from Kerry Co Council on the radio this morning, and I got the impression that this was just one of those things that no-one cared about during the boom as we could afford to waste lots of money.

n97 mini

It also beggars belief that Councils in small towns installed parking meters that charged as little as 20c an hour. Not in a million years would they get their money back.

Gumbo

Waste collection, parking spots......... All services to the public without profit to the state. Now that people are screaming for cuts cuts cuts, these things have to be looked at.

Waste, contracted out.
Maybe next, privatise the parking spots and let some private sector company take over the running of them to make profit and face higher parking fees and clamp release fees no doubt.

lmimmfn

I avoid everywhere with parking fees on principle, in fact i didnt go Christmas shopping in town before Christmas because i wouldnt pay the parking fee( along with change hassle etc. ) but its typical, in theory every parking space should be profitable in any medium sized town, but theres the usual wastage when incompetent councils try and run things.

Theyre actually losing more money by discouraging workers to go into towns on Saturday to shop( as generally its the only day you can shop when working ). I save a fortune not seeing things to buy

I just noticed our bin charges gone up again this week by 18-30% lol, its going to be a fun few years in this dump of a country.

MadsL

Problem is parking fees help 'hollow out' city centres so everyone ends up at the local 'mall'.

If you make parking fees 'profitable' then you lose rates as city-centre businesses go under and you end up with inner-city dereliction.

lmimmfn

MadsL wrote: »

Problem is parking fees help 'hollow out' city centres so everyone ends up at the local 'mall'.

If you make parking fees 'profitable' then you lose rates as city-centre businesses go under and you end up with inner-city dereliction.

so youre basically saying theyre pointless?

jased10s

they cant run the economy at a profit , what makes you think they can run anything efficently.

vicwatson

Drove along Sandymount strand in Dublin there last weekend, about 100 cars ALL ILLEGALLY parked on the footpath (always are), 100 x 80€ =8000€ collected for a few hours work for the council/state/taxpayer.

Why TF aren't they given tickets ?

thebman

If they aren't making money doing it then they are doing it wrong (not unusual).

Same reason they can charge more than private bin operators and still make a loss in many areas.

woodoo

lmimmfn wrote: »

so youre basically saying theyre pointless?

They are worse than pointless if that independent article is to be believed. They are charging the public to park, inconveniencing them and its not even turning a profit for the councils. It also acts against the interests of local businesses if people can't be bothered shopping in their town centres. All in all its ridiculous and plays up to a caricature of incompetent local government.

drunkmonkey

Wouldn't surprise me if tesco and dunnes made up most of the local parking laws because there the only ones really benefiting from them, while country towns are being destroyed.

Its a hangover from the tiger only benefiting out of town retail centers. Disgrace that it's happening and its a disgrace local councils are doing it to their own people and rate payers in town centers.

View

MadsL wrote: »

Problem is parking fees help 'hollow out' city centres so everyone ends up at the local 'mall'.

If you make parking fees 'profitable' then you lose rates as city-centre businesses go under and you end up with inner-city dereliction.

I saw a US study a few years back where economists calculated the cost to cities of providing downtown parking (free parking possibly) and the figure was staggering. Essentially the cities are massively subsidising motorists and they are doing so at levels that were they suggested for public transport, they'd be laughed at as being crazy.

It all comes back to what you decide are your political/economic priorities in the end...

jd

thebman wrote: »

If they aren't making money doing it then they are doing it wrong (not unusual).

Same reason they can charge more than private bin operators and still make a loss in many areas.

If people read the article it seems that they lose money in towns with no or minimal parking charges.

"A spokesman for Kerry County Council said that councillors were reluctant to introduce car parking charges in many areas, even where the council was paying for enforcement. He also said that money was only made in urban centres.

"In rural areas you have towns where you have parking enforcement in place, for example in Castleisland where there's a two-hour limit on parking but no charges."

Enforcement would include by-laws on double yellow lines, clearways etc.

MadsL

lmimmfn wrote: »

so youre basically saying theyre pointless?

If you want to protect your inner cities = yes. If you want to make money from out of town shopping centres and Development Levies then no.

Note that DCC reduced parking rates over Xmas last year to encourage shoppers. And promptly increased them.

Clamping costs more than it brings in to DCC.

Only point to parking fees is to ensure rotation.

Downtown here in Alburquerque they have an honour system and occasional checks, new meters in some places but many are dollar in a slot of a locked box, which is collected every couple of hours. No dollar, you get fined. No clamping.

View

A report on the study of "The True Cost of Free Parking" from the NY Times.

The original study was from 2002 and suggested the true cost of free parking was comparable to that of the US Defense budget or the Medicare budget - both high cost budget items.

thebman

jd wrote: »

If people read the article it seems that they lose money in towns with no or minimal parking charges.

"A spokesman for Kerry County Council said that councillors were reluctant to introduce car parking charges in many areas, even where the council was paying for enforcement. He also said that money was only made in urban centres.

"In rural areas you have towns where you have parking enforcement in place, for example in Castleisland where there's a two-hour limit on parking but no charges."

Enforcement would include by-laws on double yellow lines, clearways etc.

So what your saying is they are doing it wrong.

I'm glad we are in agreement.

drunkmonkey

MadsL wrote: »

Only point to parking fees is to ensure rotation.

But sadly this is Ireland and you can park outside my shop all day for €2 and don't have to move. I'm disputing it now 3 years and can't get any movement on it. I've switched tactic on it this year but i'm afraid it's going to end up in a court case with the local council demanding money.
They want rates I want somebody to be able to pull up outside my shop. Were at a stale mate.

Dirk Gently

kceire wrote: »

Maybe next, privatise the parking spots and let some private sector company take over the running of them to make profit and face higher parking fees and clamp release fees no doubt.

A lot of car parks are run like this and this is largely why a lot of small business people dont like their local business centre c/p's being privately run. It kills business. Some places you'll get away with it, like large centres in the city centre where parking is already difficult and people have no choice but local suburban shopping centres have found it's best to keep parking free. I know of a lot who introduced private fee parking and then either dramatically reduced the price or made it free again under pressure from local businesses because custom was dropping. Even in the city centre though most people will avoid it if at all possible because of the hostile parking situation.

The city councils make a profit nonetheless, it's rural / lower densitiy councils who make losses on fee parking. Every council should weigh up their own options.

drunkmonkey

Dirk Gently wrote: »

The city councils make a profit nonetheless, it's rural / lower densitiy councils who make losses on fee parking. Every council should weigh up their own options.

It doesn't matter to rural loss making councils. There not accountable, their decisions effect everyone who lives under their shadows pay packet but not their own. If it was their own money they were loosing it with be a completely different ball game. Their couldn't care less attitude is sickening.
Their loosing money, driving locals and businesses around the twist, if it was a business it would be wound up already. It's not a public service, it's a public nuisance.
They won't make the hard decisions, I hope the IMF makes it for them. We do not need all these town councils and LA's there a complete waste of money.

jd

thebman wrote: »

So what your saying is they are doing it wrong.

I'm glad we are in agreement.

Well in " Castleisland where there's a two-hour limit on parking but no charges."" you have choices
a) Don't enforce the regulations and end up with a free for all
b) Enforce them without parking charges and make a loss
c) Enforce them with parking charges and hopefully cover your costs

MadsL

Dirk Gently wrote: »

The city councils make a profit nonetheless, it's rural / lower densitiy councils who make losses on fee parking. Every council should weigh up their own options.

Dublin city makes a loss.

cast_iron

MadsL wrote: »

Dublin city makes a loss.

How so?

MadsL

cast_iron wrote: »

How so?

Well when it costs you more money to contract the service than it takes in, that is generally considered 'a loss'.

DUBLIN CITY’S clampers will be paid more than €35 million for the next seven years in a deal on which Dublin City Council will lose about half a million each year.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1107/1224307168301.html

cast_iron

MadsL wrote: »

Well when it costs you more money to contract the service than it takes in, that is generally considered 'a loss'.

Well no actually, I think that's over simplistic.
The "fear" clamping puts into motorist ensures a higher compliance of pay and display. Was that not a main motivator for the council to introduce clamping?
That report does not take into account the millions taken in by the council in parking fees. Do away with clamping and the revenue from definitely go down somewhat, as the risk of getting caught and/or the penalty is much reduced by definition.

oppenheimer1

n97 mini wrote: »

It also beggars belief that Councils in small towns installed parking meters that charged as little as 20c an hour. Not in a million years would they get their money back.

Well it is obvious they were installed not to turn a profit then, but to charge only a nominal fee. The idea behind them was to deter people who work in towns from parking along the shopping streets all day. It means parking is easy and close to shops for people who are going to spend money.

This only works of course when you prevent development of out of town shopping centres with enormous free car parks.

guinnessdrinker

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well it is obvious they were installed not to turn a profit then, but to charge only a nominal fee. The idea behind them was to deter people who work in towns from parking along the shopping streets all day. It means parking is easy and close to shops for people who are going to spend money.

This only works of course when you prevent development of out of town shopping centres with enormous free car parks.

Yes plus businesses do not want the councils to charge high parking fees because it could affect footfall.

woodoo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well it is obvious they were installed not to turn a profit then, but to charge only a nominal fee. The idea behind them was to deter people who work in towns from parking along the shopping streets all day. It means parking is easy and close to shops for people who are going to spend money.

This only works of course when you prevent development of out of town shopping centres with enormous free car parks.

Surely they could design a system that deterred people just parking up for the day but allowed people to park for an hour or 2 without getting fined.

View

woodoo wrote: »

Surely they could design a system that deterred people just parking up for the day but allowed people to park for an hour or 2 without getting fined.

There is an easy system for that used elsewhere in Europe but alas never adopted here.

Basically, you have a blue parking disc like this one and they are used in places where there is free parking for a limited time (e.g. one hour's free parking).

To use them, you just set the time you parked at when you arrive (using a rotatable disc) & display it. That way it is clear to traffic wardens when you arrived and also when your permitted time is up (i.e. when the actual time = your arrival time shown on the disc + the permitted parking time).

It really is a very simple system and eliminates a lot of the scenario of people parking in the one hour parking bays for half the day (Returning to the car to reset the parking disc does happen but: a) is a pain for the motorist and b) traffic wardens - like here - do note the cars as they do their rounds.

MadsL

There is an easy system for that used elsewhere in Europe but alas never adopted here.

Basically, you have a blue parking disc like this one and they are used in places where there is free parking for a limited time (e.g. one hour's free parking).

I remember the forerunner to this a rotary dial being used in Bray for exactly the purpose you described.