Problems with software/provider

censuspro

I recently changed to dual display monitors and want to increase the DPI in windows. When I increase the DPI, the UI on the main CRM software that I use is either being clipped or the layout is all wrong. Initially I thought this was a problem with the monitors however after reading this, it appears that the problem is because the software is not DVI aware.
If this is the case, I want the software provider to fix the problem however when I’ve pointed out problems with the software in the past, the providers/developers tell me that the fix won’t be out until the next update which is usually once per year. I’ve had a lot of problems with this software and pay €2k per year in licence fees. The support staff are in Dublin, development is done in India which means that if the query is even slightly technical it involves emailing the dataset to support who then forward the query onto India and on and on it goes.

Any developers have any thoughts on how to approach this as all my data is in this software and it’s another exercise to extract it and change software.

Giblet

Pay more than a measly 2k a year? That's barely 1months development work, at cost!

censuspro

Giblet wrote: »

Pay more than a measly 2k a year? That's barely 1months development work, at cost!

Its a single user CRM software.

Mort5000

Find other users and get a user group together.
The more people you have, the better your chance of getting a response on your issues.

Meet twice a year and submit your top 3 requirements to the developer.

If you're not getting any support, move up the chain of command until you do.

If you still don't, move over to another piece of software.

Giblet

censuspro wrote: »

I think the code is in either C# or .Net, the software is installed on a stand alone pc. Some examples of the errors I get are:

.NET is a framework, C# is the language.

• Intermittent Error Message: “Unhandled exception…” after I press Esc to close certain windows. Is this not a simple system.exit?

Depends on what kind of cleanup they do on exit, they most likely don't just kill the program. Shouldn't get an error on that, and should at least have logging.

• Intermittent Error Message: “You don’t have sufficient rights”

If you are running the app as administrator, it seems weird you would get these errors, also might be related to the SQL Server instance either, again, should be easy to diagnose and correct by the team.

• Error message connecting to SQL server which is the database used by the CRM. When I raise this with the provider they explain that it’s a problem with SQL server and not them. I don't use SQL for any other application.

Should at least be some logging to explain this, they are fobbing you off. If people were getting random errors connecting to databases because of SQL Server, and it was the fault of the database software itself, no-one would use it.

• For some reason I have to have an internet connection to open the software so that it can connect to the SQL server. I’ve raised this with them and they can’t find a solution. Again, they explain that it’s a problem with SQL server and nothing they can do.

Sounds dodgy as hell, so perhaps not a local instance? Which leads me to believe they host the SQL Server.

The CRM also doubles as email client, when writing emails I have the following issues.

• Spell check doesn’t “ignore all” when selected and continues to check same words
• Cannot copy screen grabs into body of email but have to attach as a word document
• Cannot copy/paste with mouse but can use keyboard shortcuts in email
• Cannot insert web hyperlinks into emails but have to copy paste web link as text.

Depends on that the editor is they use, if it's something like Telerik's RAD Editor, they might be able to configure some things, but not all. Probably a large change request though...


As for your concerns that the application is not DPI aware. This is rather difficult to pull off, and would require a lot of development work and reworking of assets. Also, if they deploy multiple languages, it's very difficult to get everything to flow correctly in all languages in all resolutions and DPI combinations. Any changes are likely to cost a lot.

It sounds like a cheap CRM, 2k is nothing in the realm of things for this type of software, and you are getting what you pay for. The fact that they outsource development completely speaks volumes.

28064212

censuspro wrote: »

Any developers have any thoughts on how to approach this

What exactly are you hoping for? You're using a cheap proprietary solution that isn't working. There's a reason good CRM systems cost money. Unless you're considering trying to decompile the code and rewrite it yourself, there's not much anyone here can do

censuspro

28064212 wrote: »

What exactly are you hoping for? You're using a cheap proprietary solution that isn't working. There's a reason good CRM systems cost money. Unless you're considering trying to decompile the code and rewrite it yourself, there's not much anyone here can do

I was just looking for some general guidance.

Giblet

censuspro wrote: »

I was merely looking for some general guidance.

Good code should cost no more than bad code.

Good code takes time and requires good coders who cost money.

Colonel Panic

censuspro wrote: »

Good code should cost no more than bad code.

Your experiences seem to contradict that assertion.

In any case, if the data is in SQL Server, you might be able to extract and load it into another CRM, but it would probably cost you to do so. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

28064212

censuspro wrote: »

I was merely looking for some general guidance. I dont understand the fixation on the €2k licence fee which IMO is alot for a one user licence in an small practice. Good code should cost no more than bad code.

I can't tell if you're actually serious or not. If one of your competitors starts selling a really crappy version of your product/service at a tenth the price, are you going to drop your prices to their level?

censuspro

28064212 wrote: »

I can't tell if you're actually serious or not. If one of your competitors starts selling a really crappy version of your product/service at a tenth the price, are you going to drop your prices to their level?

That's not what I'm saying, my point is that there are minimum standard requirements in every profession regardless of the price. Some of the problems I encounter like system.exit are standard in even the most basic open source accountancy and bookkeeping software.

Colonel Panic

Software development has no minimum standard and isn't a profession. I don't like it any more than you do but that's how it is.

TonyStark

censuspro wrote: »

I recently changed to dual display monitors and want to increase the DPI in windows. When I increase the DPI, the UI on the main CRM software that I use is either being clipped or the layout is all wrong. Initially I thought this was a problem with the monitors however after reading this, it appears that the problem is because the software is not DVI aware.
If this is the case, I want the software provider to fix the problem however when I’ve pointed out problems with the software in the past, the providers/developers tell me that the fix won’t be out until the next update which is usually once per year. I’ve had a lot of problems with this software and pay €2k per year in licence fees. The support staff are in Dublin, development is done in India which means that if the query is even slightly technical it involves emailing the dataset to support who then forward the query onto India and on and on it goes.

Any developers have any thoughts on how to approach this as all my data is in this software and it’s another exercise to extract it and change software.

Your paying 2K a year or support, they have a means of taking your data and trying to recreate your error and fixing it.

I don't see what the problem is exactly on this one.

The bug you outlined seems to stem from the way you changed using the product, and really in my view it's not a bug, it falls into the category of product enhancement. It may or may not be in line with their roadmap for the product. They are perfectly entitled to refuse to add any superfluous additions to their product however necessary you might think they are. If they feel it's something a few customers may need they might throw it in.

If you require the functionality that bad then ask how much it would cost and I'm sure they will work something out. Just because you feel your paying a sizeable amount on software support doesn't give you a carte blance with getting new free enhancements.

What am I missing here?

28064212

censuspro wrote: »

That's not what I'm saying, my point is that there are minimum standard requirements in every profession regardless of the price.

No, there aren't. There's a handful like doctors and accountants that are certified, but there is no requirement that a software must meet the arbitrary standards you set out. That's what trial versions are for, and you move to a competitor if it's not good enough. You went for the cheapest option, you don't get to complain when it turns out to be a cheap piece of software

censuspro

28064212 wrote: »

No, there aren't. There's a handful like doctors and accountants that are certified, but there is no requirement that a software must meet the arbitrary standards you set out. That's what trial versions are for, and you move to a competitor if it's not good enough. You went for the cheapest option, you don't get to complain when it turns out to be a cheap piece of software

Where does it say that in order for software to be good it has to be expensive? As I said, and as any good developer worth their salt knows, good code should cost no more than bad code. The same way good design should cost no more than bad design etc.

28064212

censuspro wrote: »

Where does it say that in order for software to be good it has to be expensive?

Nowhere. If you find a good cheap software solution, go with it. Have you? No, you've discovered that a cheap solution is normally cheap for a reason

Giblet

censuspro wrote: »

The same way good design should cost no more than bad design etc.

Apple have a whole business of good design costing more than bad.

28064212

censuspro wrote: »

As I said, and as any good developer worth their salt knows, good code should cost no more than bad code.

That's total BS. It can take 5 minutes to write an unoptimised, buggy, insecure mess of a code that works, but badly. Properly optimising, debugging, securing and testing it will take many times that

censuspro wrote: »

The same way good design should cost no more than bad design etc.

Yes, that's why there's loads of good graphic designers available for minimum wage :rolleyes:

Are you seriously telling me I couldn't find an accountant that will offer a crappy service for a fraction the price you're offering?

Beano

Giblet wrote: »

Pay more than a measly 2k a year? That's barely 1months development work, at cost!

That wouldnt even cover 2 weeks salary for a half-decent developer. In terms of actual billed development costs it's less than 3 days.

Beano

censuspro wrote: »

Where does it say that in order for software to be good it has to be expensive? As I said, and as any good developer worth their salt knows, good code should cost no more than bad code. The same way good design should cost no more than bad design etc.

ROFLMAO

Good code costs more than bad code because good programmers cost more than bad ones. The same applies to design.

On a positive note the idea of forming a user group is a good one. Pressure from multiple customers tends to get noticed.

Giblet

Beano wrote: »

That wouldnt even cover 2 weeks salary for a half-decent developer. In terms of actual billed development costs it's less than 3 days.

In India it's a bit less, but yeah here, forget about it!

censuspro

TonyStark wrote: »

Your paying 2K a year or support, they have a means of taking your data and trying to recreate your error and fixing it.

I don't see what the problem is exactly on this one.

The bug you outlined seems to stem from the way you changed using the product, and really in my view it's not a bug, it falls into the category of product enhancement. It may or may not be in line with their roadmap for the product. They are perfectly entitled to refuse to add any superfluous additions to their product however necessary you might think they are. If they feel it's something a few customers may need they might throw it in.

If you require the functionality that bad then ask how much it would cost and I'm sure they will work something out. Just because you feel your paying a sizeable amount on software support doesn't give you a carte blance with getting new free enhancements.

What am I missing here?

When I bought the product I "assumed" that the email client would have the same features that as most other email clients i.e. copy/paste screengrabs into email body, inserting hyperlinks into the body of the email. Also, the system.exit problem I mentioned only occurs in some windows but in other windows will work fine. For example, if I have customer details window open and I press Esc the window will close, but if I do the same with an open email I get an unhandled exception. Also, I can copy paste using keyboard shortcuts but can't do it by right clicking the mouse. I thought these were standard features on all programs running on windows?

I'm not a developer so correct me if I'm wrong but is the code for some of these features not readily available in ms outlook, gmail etc not to mention all the open source software out there?

censuspro

28064212 wrote: »

No, there aren't. There's a handful like doctors and accountants that are certified, but there is no requirement that a software must meet the arbitrary standards you set out. That's what trial versions are for, and you move to a competitor if it's not good enough. You went for the cheapest option, you don't get to complain when it turns out to be a cheap piece of software

I thought they had to meet certain standards to run on the operating system?

Beano

censuspro wrote: »

I thought they had to meet certain standards to run on the operating system?

There are no standards for developers or for software. There are no minimum set of features that a program must support.

28064212

censuspro wrote: »

When I bought the product I "assumed" that the email client would have the same features that as most other email clients i.e. copy/paste screengrabs into email body, inserting hyperlinks into the body of the email. Also, the system.exit problem I mentioned only occurs in some windows but in other windows will work fine. For example, if I have customer details window open and I press Esc the window will close, but if I do the same with an open email I get an unhandled exception. Also, I can copy paste using keyboard shortcuts but can't do it by right clicking the mouse. I thought these were standard features on all programs running on windows?

I'm not a developer so correct me if I'm wrong but is the code for some of these features not readily available in ms outlook, gmail etc not to mention all the open source software out there?

You're comparing a cheap 3-or-4 developer solution to the multi-million dollar, 100s-of-developers-strong outlook or gmail?

Incidentally, in the Microsoft CRM solution, you can't paste a screengrab directly into the email form

censuspro wrote: »

I thought they had to meet certain standards to run on the operating system?

No

azzeretti

Did you pay €2000 for the software or is your yearly maintenance costing you €2000?

If you are paying a yearly maintenance fee of €2000 then it certainly isn't cheap for an SME and there are lots of enterprise grade (ISO standard) solutions that would charge considerably less for a single user license.

Beano

28064212 wrote: »

You're comparing a cheap 3-or-4 developer solution to the multi-million dollar, 100s-of-developers-strong outlook or gmail?

Incidentally, in the Microsoft CRM solution, you can't paste a screengrab directly into the email form

yeah, its a real pain in the arse.

censuspro

azzeretti wrote: »

Did you pay €2000 for the software or is your yearly maintenance costing you €2000?

If you are paying a yearly maintenance fee of €2000 then it certainly isn't cheap for an SME and there are lots of enterprise grade (ISO standard) solutions that would charge considerably less for a single user license.

Correct, the yearly maintenance is €2,000 per year for one user and if I don't renew the licence each year I'm locked out of the software so even if I did decide to change and wanted to look at any historic info I wouldn't be able to access it.

conor.hogan.2

censuspro wrote: »

Correct, the yearly maintenance is €2,000 per year for one user and if I don't renew the licence each year I'm locked out of the software so even if I did decide to change and wanted to look at any historic info I wouldn't be able to access it.

You should always try to make sure you get access to your data, depending on what the software is you should have someone who could provide that and if not pay the extra money for someone to develop it so you have the freedom to move to a new company/developer/in house etc

Lock-in is usually always a bad choice.

censuspro

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You should always try to make sure you get access to your data, depending on what the software is you should have someone who could provide that and if not pay the extra money for someone to develop it so you have the freedom to move to a new company/developer/in house etc

Lock-in is usually always a bad choice.

Thanks, what are your thoughts on the general user issues that I mentioned?

Liam Byrne

censuspro wrote: »

28064212 wrote: »

No, there aren't. There's a handful like doctors and accountants that are certified, but there is no requirement that a software must meet the arbitrary standards you set out. That's what trial versions are for, and you move to a competitor if it's not good enough. You went for the cheapest option, you don't get to complain when it turns out to be a cheap piece of software

Where does it say that in order for software to be good it has to be expensive? As I said, and as any good developer worth their salt knows, good code should cost no more than bad code. The same way good design should cost no more than bad design etc.

And a good footballer should cost the same as a bad one ? Or a Merc should cost the same as a Lada ?

Even if you ignore the fact that talent and experience costs money and assumed the coding were IDENTICAL, then testing alone on every platform and configuration will take time, and time costs.

censuspro

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And a good footballer should cost the same as a bad one ? Or a Merc should cost the same as a Lada ?

Even if you ignore the fact that talent and experience costs money and assumed the coding were IDENTICAL, then testing alone on every platform and configuration will take time, and time costs.

Attached is an example of the unhandled exception message that I get when I hit enter twice to view an invoice. I get these messages all the time and it's very frustrating.

conor.hogan.2

censuspro wrote: »

Thanks, what are your thoughts on the general user issues that I mentioned?

Start from scratch with a decent provider which is solid and allows you full access to your data.

You may not be able to do this depending on how much cash you have, there may be OS equivalents to your software that would be worth researching.

Also swapping out your system may also be impossible depending on how many customers you have etc.

TonyStark

censuspro wrote: »

TonyStark wrote: »

Canteen! Went for a quick bite with Lorna

When I bought the product I "assumed" that the email client would have the same features that as most other email clients i.e. copy/paste screengrabs into email body, inserting hyperlinks into the body of the email. Also, the system.exit problem I mentioned only occurs in some windows but in other windows will work fine. For example, if I have customer details window open and I press Esc the window will close, but if I do the same with an open email I get an unhandled exception. Also, I can copy paste using keyboard shortcuts but can't do it by right clicking the mouse. I thought these were standard features on all programs running on windows?

I'm not a developer so correct me if I'm wrong but is the code for some of these features not readily available in ms outlook, gmail etc not to mention all the open source software out there?

A lot of it is standard windows forms functionality. However it's up to them what they choose to implement or restrict.

censuspro

TonyStark wrote: »

A lot of it is standard windows forms functionality. However it's up to them what they choose to implement or restrict.

Out of interest, how difficult is it to implement windows forms functionality?

Beano

censuspro wrote: »

Out of interest, how difficult is it to implement windows forms functionality?

that depends entirely on the environment it was developed in.