N11 New Road Signs in Wicklow

dazmetron

So who in the NRA needs to learn how to check the spelling of place names? All the new directional information signs currently being put up on the N11 in North Wicklow have the spelling of Kilmacanogue wrong (they have it spelt Kilmacanoge).

I see I'm not the only one to have noticed this: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0206/1224311335009.html

Irish and Proud

dazmetron wrote: »

So who in the NRA needs to learn how to check the spelling of place names? All the new directional information signs currently being put up on the N11 in North Wicklow have the spelling of Kilmacanogue wrong (they have it spelt Kilmacanoge).

I see I'm not the only one to have noticed this: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0206/1224311335009.html

If the place names on the signs have been spelled wrong, then I guess heads need to roll - the country can no longer afford this kind of throw away waste. Whose ever was responsible for finding out the place names should be dismissed or at least demoted - we need to demand a lot more professionalism in this country!

Regards!

Stark

Apparently Kilmacanoge and Kiltiernan are the names for Kilmacanogue and Kilternan in official documents. Not sure about Glencormick/Glencormac but could well be the same situation.

L1011

logainm seems to suggest its Glencormick

munchkin_utd

MYOB wrote: »

logainm seems to suggest its Glencormick

This has been going on in Cavan for about 10 years now on both roadsigns and online maps.
i.e. Arva as Arvagh
Ballinagh as Bellananagh
Killeshandra as Killashandra
where locally for the past 100years the first version is all that was ever used by firms, Gardai, Churches, Post Offices etc. but suddenly the mutated versions started to appear on signs and maps.

I wrote to the Ordinance Survey about it and their answer was that they were using the "correct" legal version, and if anyone was to want the name corrected then that was a change of town name and would need to be enacted through a parliamentary law.

Now that the problem is spreading to all corners of Ireland maybe theres a hope that the politicans can sort this out.

hi5

I'd prefer to see the correct legal version myself,not some bastardised version conjured up by the illiterate locals:D

Alun

All those places are spelt the same way as the new signs on the OSi 1:50k map of the area FWIW.

munchkin_utd

hi5 wrote: »

I'd prefer to see the correct legal version myself,not some bastardised version conjured up by the illiterate locals:D

Bastardised version?
Illiterate locals?

The original Irish versions of the name at some stage were anglisised so its somewhat arbitrary as to what ended up being the accepted spelling. But the accepted spelling is one thing and the official version another.

The problem here is that the accepted spelling for over 150 years by those who live in an area is now being essentially changed to a version that the government has decided is the correct version in the parallel legal universe that they live in .
This means that the people living in an areas have their post addressed in one way yet bit by bit signs and maps are using the alternative official version.
So either the people in an area change what they call their town after 100s of years of calling it something else, or the official version has to change.

Anyhow, I'll take you on a trip in time to see what was used as the name of certain towns in print by literate non locals.

Right at this moment - if you look at the post office addresses from our national postal service in the phone book you'll see the names of Killeshandra/ Ballinagh/ Arva spelt according to the common usage, not the "official" way.
http://www.goldenpages.ie/an-post/cavan-cavan-county/?sort=az

Heres a map of rail routes from 1906.
There Killeshandra and Arva are down as I am spelling it here.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg
Again, not using what is now being called the official town names.

Heres the Dail records from 1955 of the law exempting CIE from being compelled to run services on the "Crossdoney-Killeshandra Railway Line"
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1955/en/si/0006.html
If the name of the town is legally incorrect and that Law didnt use the name of the branch terminus which we now know as the official name "Killashandra" then has CIE illegally closed a branch line seeing as now we are being told there is now such place as "Killeshandra" which is mentioned in the law?

Heres other references of the spelling of Killeshandra and Ballinagh by the "non official" way back in 1847
http://www.irelandoldnews.com/Cavan/1847/JAN.html

In 1801 the statistical survey of Ireland also refers to the above mentioned towns with the spelling that is commonly used nowadays (and isnt the official version that has now come to light as the being the "correct" but unused one)
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-files/assets/ebooks/02_Cavan-Statistical-Survey/02%20Statistical%20Survey%20County%20Cavan%20(resize).pdf
page 280 - list of towns in Cavan.

So you can see, documented through the years the towns have been referred to one way yet the government is now essentially changing that with their different official placenames

L1011

I would imagine this is an unintended affect of the OLA which forces the use of the "official" versions.

There was either the intent to have, or they actually did have, a plebiscite to change "Palmerstown" back to "Palmerston" as a result of this.

PseudoFamous

Whoever does the signs for Wicklow seems to be dyslexic. A few years ago, when putting up new signs, they misspelt "Avoca" and "Aughrim" on every sign and had to get them all replaced.

Wild Bill

Stark wrote: »

Apparently Kilmacanoge and Kiltiernan are the names for Kilmacanogue and Kilternan in official documents. Not sure about Glencormick/Glencormac but could well be the same situation.

Yep - there has long been two versions of the spelling of Kiltiernan (which was how I used to spell it back before I knew any locals)

From Wiki:

Road signs are somewhat confused regarding the correct spelling of the name of the area. For example; signs on the M50 motorway (Junction 15) call it Kilternan while signs at the junction on the adjoining roads refer to "Kiltiernan", even though both sets were erected at roughly the same time. Local government documents and ordnance survey maps refer to Kiltiernan while many local people spell the name without the "i". Locally, Kilternan is the most acceptable form.[1]

So I think rolling heads woulds be a bit harsh.

However this signage issue seems to be crystallizing the issue in favour of "Kilternan" - and non-Motorway signs have now been patched to reflect this.

TransportCons

Rolling of heads?! haha very extreme! It's a simple thing though that should be verified before any sign is manufactured. I think the problem here lies with logainm.ie who seem to often adopt "official" placenames while locals may have been using a different version for decades. Since logainm is the Official Placenames Database, the NRA use these versions. They simply haven't got the resources to ask locals which version they'd prefer! With SatNavs and maps these days, one would probably lean towards the argument for using logainm.ie also. For visitors to an area signage spelt the same as that on the map is preferable I would think. Although, I personally would find it frustrating everytime I pass by a sign for my homeplace spelt wrong. It's a tricky one by all accounts. Also that N11 route I suspect has hundred of signs, so to get just a handful wrong is, albeit poor attention to detail, but still a good result in terms of the overall cost.

Nobody is perfect.

icdg

MYOB wrote: »

I would imagine this is an unintended affect of the OLA which forces the use of the "official" versions.

There was either the intent to have, or they actually did have, a plebiscite to change "Palmerstown" back to "Palmerston" as a result of this.

It was the opposite way around (from Palmerston to Palmerstown), but from what I gather they actually did have a plebiscite about two years ago, and it failed to carry due to too low a turnout. Since then all the signs on the N4 that read Palmerstown have been patched to read Palmerston.

A bit about it here:
http://www.southdublinhistory.ie/content.aspx?area=palmerston&type=chronology