Integration vs. Multiculturalism (See Mod In-Thread Warnings)

Yonge Street

I'm in favour of cultural integration. If immigrants come to Ireland:

• they must speak English or Irish
• dress in a Western fashion
• respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled
• Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

What I don't like is "multiculturalism", as advocated by Tony Blair and his ilk. The legacy of this failed policy can be seen in several European cities today, where immigrants' culture was "valued" and preserved. Hence whole streets in Paris are blocked off by Muslims and are no-go areas for the native whites. The residents can't speak a word of the local language and so Arabic is the vernacular. Women saunter around in burqas and hijabs. Arranged marriages are still practiced. It's like a whole community from Pakistan was transplanted to Europe. Ghettos everywhere.

Cultural integration =/= multiculturalism

There is a great book on the topic called Londonistan by Melanie Phillips that explains how London became a hub from Islamic extremism over the years thanks to the tolerance of multiculturalism.


MOD NOTE: Pulled from the Politics Cafe with the permission of the OP. It's an interesting debate, so let's keep it civil.

Wile E. Coyote

Yonge Street wrote: »

You misunderstood my post. I'm in favour of cultural integration. If immigrants come to Ireland:

• they must speak English or Irish
• dress in a Western fashion
• respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled
• Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

So for Irish people who emmigrate for work or whatever other reason to various parts of the middle east, do you think they should be forced to dress in the same fashion and respect the laws which tolerate the inequalities of women, homosexuality, and the disabled? Should they be forced to get involved with the local community and play traditional sports even if they've no interest in it?

Yonge Street

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

[/LIST]
So for Irish people who emmigrate for work or whatever other reason to various parts of the middle east, do you think they should be forced to dress in the same fashion and respect the laws which tolerate the inequalities of women, homosexuality, and the disabled? Should they be forced to get involved with the local community and play traditional sports even if they've no interest in it?

Yes actually. Irish females shouldn't wear short skirts or hot pants in the Middle East. Dress modestly and cover your head like the locals. If you are staying there long term, learn the language, make friends with the locals, and get involved with the community. I believe public displays of affection, such as kissing, are frowned upon in Dubai so don't do it. Simples. Just because the use of marijuana is legal in Amsterdam doesn't mean you are allowed to do it in Dublin. Respect local laws. I wouldn't advise gay couples to go there at all.

Would you prefer if all Irish emigrants abroad only hung out at the local Irish bar, only socialised with other Irish, ate their Tayto and drank their Guiness without integrating into the local culture at all??

desertcircus

Yonge Street wrote: »

What I don't like is "multiculturalism", as advocated by Tony Blair and his ilk. The legacy of this failed policy can be seen in several European cities today, where immigrants' culture was "valued" and preserved. Hence whole streets in Paris are blocked off by Muslims and are no-go areas for the native whites. The residents can't speak a word of the local language and so Arabic is the vernacular. Women saunter around in burqas and hijabs. Arranged marriages are still practiced. It's like a whole community from Pakistan was transplanted to Europe. Ghettos everywhere.

Cultural integration =/= multiculturalism

There is a great book on the topic called Londonistan by Melanie Phillips that explains how London became a hub from Islamic extremism over the years thanks to the tolerance of multiculturalism.

Let's get started on this...

1. Which streets in Paris are no-go areas for the native whites?
2. In what way was immigrant culture valued and preserved in a country where wearing the burqa in public can put you in jail?
3. Has it occurred to you that the cause of such ghettoisation, much like the creation of ghettoes throughout history, has been as much to do with natives being unwilling to consider living next to immigrants and abandoning areas? Areas like Chinatown in most major American cities, Golders Green in London, huge swathes of Bradford in England, Astoria in Queens in New York, Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, Harlem...the list goes on, featuring just about every ethnicity and religion imaginable.

AlekSmart

Yonge Street wrote: »

Hence whole streets in Paris are blocked off by Muslims and are no-go areas for the native whites. The residents can't speak a word of the local language and so Arabic is the vernacular. Women saunter around in burqas and hijabs. Arranged marriages are still practiced. It's like a whole community from Pakistan was transplanted to Europe.

Also lol @ Nodin thanking SSR's refernce to Sinn Fein terrorism. Has he turned a leaf? (Incidentally The Troubles conflict also has its roots in multiculturalism it can be argued aka Irish Nationalist Vs British Unionist traditions)

Whilst I can readily appreciate Yonge Street peering from behind a parapet,I can also add an element of,perhaps,Farce to the issue.

Recently,I had a fully garbed Lady of Middle Eastern aspect board my bus with two children,a toddler and a young boy of perhaps 13 years of age.

The lady displayed a new Bus Pass and indicated to me with her hands that it was to cover her children also.

I asked to see the pass and ascertained that it was very recently issued and it was classified Pass-Holder Only,which is self-explanatory.

Also,as the address on the Pass was a Dublin one,I advised her that she would require a Photo-ID card before the Pass was Valid.

No big deal,as I was not insisting on any of this being carried out on the spot and was simply advising the woman of the requirements already outlined on the form which accompanies the Pass itself.

However,the absurdity of this situation was rapidly dawning on me as I realized I was speaking to a person whose appearance was hidden behind a black veil,with only her eyes visible.

I was then asking her to accquire a photo-id,which may well have been akin to piercing her with red-hot daggers..I just don't know.

It transpired that the lady had no english whatsoever,as the young boy returned to tell me his mother had no english,and had just been given the Free-Pass and knew nothing of the ID requirements.

The young-lad was very helpful,and as well as paying his fare,went on to read out the contents of the Free Pass leaflet to his mother on the journey.

However,the entire thing left me somewhat nonplussed,not least because of the Monty Pythonesque scene of advising a fully covered non-english speaking Islamic woman to accquire a photo,but also the incongruity of having to rely on a young boy to act as interpreter.

Eoghan Harris once said (relating to some Irish Nationalism issue) that "there are questions for which no answers can be found "...It's a pity he was'nt on my Bus that day....:p

Integration,like World Peace and Saving Whales,is an all encompassing term which has the ability to say everything and absolutely nothing....what do we integrate stuff with,and what stuff is to be integrated..?

A friend of mine who travelled and worked in Saudi Arabia and Iraq during the 1980's and 90's learned very rapidly to learn a somewhat more all encompassing definition of the word "modest" during her time in those countries.

This learning process was considerably accelerated by the frequency of being spat upon and verbally harrangued by zealots when out walking or shopping.

I believe that our native tolerance for foreign cultures and our attempts to assimilate these into our own fragile identity is often totally underestimated and rarely compared to whats on offer in foreign climes themselves.

JustinDee

Yonge Street wrote: »

must speak English or Irish

It would help. I'd wager that the number of 'immigrants' coming to Ireland are more literate than many Irish actually.

Yonge Street wrote: »

dress in a Western fashion

???
What difference does that make?? A dress code for Irish residents?? lol

Yonge Street wrote: »

respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled

Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

Shouldn't this be an encouragement aimed at all members of a community then? Who's to say that immigrants don't do this already anyway? Would a Pakistani playing cricket for the local cricket club be deemed not good enough? What deems someone as 'active' in the community? How do you gauge that?

lagente

Too late now to be quite honest.

Yonge Street

desertcircus wrote: »

1. Which streets in Paris are no-go areas for the native whites?
2. In what way was immigrant culture valued and preserved in a country where wearing the burqa in public can put you in jail?
3. Has it occurred to you that the cause of such ghettoisation, much like the creation of ghettoes throughout history, has been as much to do with natives being unwilling to consider living next to immigrants and abandoning areas? Areas like Chinatown in most major American cities, Golders Green in London, huge swathes of Bradford in England, Astoria in Queens in New York, Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, Harlem...the list goes on, featuring just about every ethnicity and religion imaginable.

1. Here is a list from an official French government website of no-go areas for whites, or "sensitive urban zones" as they are euphemistically known. http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/

2. France is only now realizing the error of its ways and is fighting back against overtly displaying religious symbols in public. But there are still too many European countries out there where women hide under veils. AlekSmart's anecdote of verifying photo ID on a bus demonstrates one impracticality of this. Why should the law not apply to Muslims?

3. I would argue that the opposite is true. Immigrants of the same ethnicity move into an area and try to intimidate any remaining native whites into leaving. http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2011/february/europes-multiculturalism-leading-to-civil-war-
The speed of this demographic change is shocking. The Europe of today would be unrecognizable even 20 years ago.

booom

desertcircus wrote: »

Let's get started on this...

1. Which streets in Paris are no-go areas for the native whites?
2. In what way was immigrant culture valued and preserved in a country where wearing the burqa in public can put you in jail?
3. Has it occurred to you that the cause of such ghettoisation, much like the creation of ghettoes throughout history, has been as much to do with natives being unwilling to consider living next to immigrants and abandoning areas? Areas like Chinatown in most major American cities, Golders Green in London, huge swathes of Bradford in England, Astoria in Queens in New York, Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, Harlem...the list goes on, featuring just about every ethnicity and religion imaginable.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/august/islamization-of-paris-a-warning-to-the-west/

Terrontress

I really don't think that a ZUS is a no-go for whites. It's an area where extra resources are targetted due to unemployment and lack of prospects.

The same exists in Dublin, such as O'Devaney Gardens or Ballymun. They might be areas that your chances of getting robbed or assaulted are higher than other areas but anyone is legally free to enter them as they wish

If the French government were to officially designate areas where white, or any other ethnicity, could not go, there would be massive international condemnation.

HamletOrHecuba

Yonge Street wrote: »

I
[*]respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled

As little ago as the 1990s homosexuality was illegal in this country now soon it could be illegal to call for it being criminalized again however, but will this new found fad of putting it on the same level as healthy normal sexuality last? Im not so sure. What exactly do you mean by equality of women? Does a healthy respect for gender differences and a wish that confusion which is damaging to everyone enter this area mean not tolerating the equality of women? Be very careful what you ask for, you could be opening the doors to utter scum and shutting it on potentially constructive citizens.

Nodin

Yonge Street wrote: »

I'm in favour of cultural integration. If immigrants come to Ireland:

• they must speak English or Irish
• dress in a Western fashion
• respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled
• Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

What I don't like is "multiculturalism", as advocated by Tony Blair and his ilk. The legacy of this failed policy can be seen in several European cities today, where immigrants' culture was "valued" and preserved. Hence whole streets in Paris are blocked off by Muslims and are no-go areas for the native whites. The residents can't speak a word of the local language and so Arabic is the vernacular. Women saunter around in burqas and hijabs. Arranged marriages are still practiced. It's like a whole community from Pakistan was transplanted to Europe. Ghettos everywhere.

Cultural integration =/= multiculturalism

There is a great book on the topic called Londonistan by Melanie Phillips that explains how London became a hub from Islamic extremism over the years thanks to the tolerance of multiculturalism.


.

The idea of imposing a dress code on citizens, whatever about covering the face, went out in Western Europe generally 'some time ago', along with wars of religion. I don't see how we'd benefit from it's return.

The comments re paris are rather hysterical. I might add that theres been North African muslims living in France since the early 20th century, a very large mosque being opened there in the 1920's. They've fought for France in both world wars. The idea therefore that they are not 'native' is rather laughable.

France has never practicised "multiculturalism". Where the notion it has comes from has always mystified me.

The book "londonistan" is generally viewed as being an hysterical piece of tabloid nonsense.

3. I would argue that the opposite is true. Immigrants of the same ethnicity move into an area and try to intimidate any remaining native whites into leaving. http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2011/february/europes-multiculturalism-leading-to-civil-war-[/QUOTE]

Absolute nonsense, bordering on racism.

Your link once more drags France into a debate on "multiculturalism" despite it never had that as a state policy.

In addition, its a link to "Christian Broadcast Network" run by the rather notorious Pat Robertson. One might as well go to Islamic Jihad's website for a pork recipe as rely on it for anything vaguely resembling decent reportage.

JustinDee

As usual a diatribe about Muslims is dressed up as a 'concern' about 'immigrants'.
Using CBN as 'proof' too lol

lagente

JustinDee wrote: »

As usual a diatribe about Muslims is dressed up as a 'concern' about 'immigrants'.
Using CBN as 'proof' too lol

Primetime showing Sunni community had at least 11 known Irish suicide bombers sent to Iraq and dead by end of 2006.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wiGHbk6jIs

Some Libyans celebrating Gaddafi and his sons torture and death in O'Connell Street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvtYUBTBnI

Ireland = Launchpad for Sharia Law for Libya and Syria.

Batsy

Every year in Bolton, a group of several thousand Muslims marches through some of the town's suburbs, including the Great Lever area of the town where I live. I don't know why they do it but my mother believes they do it to celebrate the birth of Mohammed. However, I've just discovered that Mohammed was born on 26th April and this year's march took place today.

But, anyway, when they march they march as though they are strikers on a protest. They march in a long column down the street, shouting loudly and waving banners, many of them in Arabic.

Not only that, but entire roads are closed off to traffic just so these people can march down them in the middle of the road.

And, of course, the march needs to be policed. And it costs money to police the march.

And it is this that has left many Boltonians infuriated. Last year, Bolton Council said that a planned Royal British Legion march through the town will not be allowed to go ahead because they couldn't afford policing costs. So the Royal British Legion were not allowed to do the march. However, at around the same time, the annual Muslim march WAS allowed to go ahead by the council!!!!

Furious residents wrote to the council demanding to know why they supposedly couldn't afford to police a Royal British Legion march but they could somehow find the money to police a March of a group of thousands of Muslim men waving their banners and chanting intimidatedly. Not suprisingly, Bolton Council refused to reply to their letters.

It seems like it's one rule for the Royal British Legion and other similar groups and another for the Muslims.

JustinDee

lagente wrote: »

Primetime showing Sunni community had at least 11 known Irish suicide bombers sent to Iraq and dead by end of 2006.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wiGHbk6jIs

Why lump an entire demographic with the actions of a violent fundamentalist group? Hardly fair or realistic, is it?

lagente wrote: »

Some Libyans celebrating Gaddafi and his sons torture and death in O'Connell Street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvtYUBTBnI

I think you'll find the celebrations of Gadaffy's demise has eff all to do with any religions and more to do with his reign (which also had nothing to dow with religion) being finally put to an end.

lagente wrote: »

Ireland = Launchpad for Sharia Law for Libya and Syria.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Yonge Street

JustinDee wrote: »

It would help. I'd wager that the number of 'immigrants' coming to Ireland are more literate than many Irish actually.

Speak for yourself. Do you have any statistically evidence to back up your claim that immigrants are more literate than the Irish. According to this Ireland's literacy rate ranks higher than every single African country.

Nodin wrote: »

The idea of imposing a dress code on citizens, whatever about covering the face, went out in Western Europe generally 'some time ago', along with wars of religion. I don't see how we'd benefit from it's return.

I stand by my belief that burqas and all veils covering the face should be banned in Europe. Again there are practical reasons for this like verifying ID. I can't walk into a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet for security reasons. Care to address this?

The comments re paris are rather hysterical. I might add that theres been North African muslims living in France since the early 20th century, a very large mosque being opened there in the 1920's. They've fought for France in both world wars. The idea therefore that they are not 'native' is rather laughable.

Correct. North Africans have been in France for a long time, so it's even more remarkable that they still haven't integrated. North African-French cheer on Algeria in football matches rather than France. They despise the country they live in and trash their communes. A "fcuk the police" attitude rules. Listen to any French rap song. Or even better, visit France's suburbs. Remember the 2005 riots? I wonder when we're due the next riot.

France has never practicised "multiculturalism". Where the notion it has comes from has always mystified me.

Whether it was an official state policy or not, multiculturalism is plain to see in France today. Take your head out from under the sand. There are mini-Chinatowns in Paris along with huge Islamic enclaves and black ghettos. Anyway, multiculturalism was a state policy in UK. Care to address that abomination?

The book "londonistan" is generally viewed as being an hysterical piece of tabloid nonsense.

Debate facts with me. What specifically in the book is hysterical tabloid nonsense? I find you very frustrating to debate with. You don't deal with stats, links or facts. It's all opinion.

Absolute nonsense, bordering on racism.

Yes, it is racism - against native whites.

Your link once more drags France into a debate on "multiculturalism" despite it never had that as a state policy.

Dealt with above.

In addition, its a link to "Christian Broadcast Network" run by the rather notorious Pat Robertson. One might as well go to Islamic Jihad's website for a pork recipe as rely on it for anything vaguely resembling decent reportage.

Again you're being dismissive of the source without dealing with the content. Debate facts.

Nodin

Batsy wrote: »

Every year in Bolton, (...........) the Muslims.

Slagging off a march you don't even know the reason behind. Very convincing. Get back to us when you have some information about the whole thing.

lagente wrote:

Ireland = Launchpad for Sharia Law for Libya and Syria. .

"hysteria". There's a word.

cianisgood

Yonge Street wrote: »

I'm in favour of cultural integration. If immigrants come to Ireland:

• they must speak English or Irish
• dress in a Western fashion
• respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled
• Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

What I don't like is "multiculturalism", as advocated by Tony Blair and his ilk. The legacy of this failed policy can be seen in several European cities today, where immigrants' culture was "valued" and preserved. Hence whole streets in Paris are blocked off by Muslims and are no-go areas for the native whites. The residents can't speak a word of the local language and so Arabic is the vernacular. Women saunter around in burqas and hijabs. Arranged marriages are still practiced. It's like a whole community from Pakistan was transplanted to Europe. Ghettos everywhere.

Cultural integration =/= multiculturalism

There is a great book on the topic called Londonistan by Melanie Phillips that explains how London became a hub from Islamic extremism over the years thanks to the tolerance of multiculturalism.


MOD NOTE: Pulled from the Politics Cafe with the permission of the OP. It's an interesting debate, so let's keep it civil.

sure they have to speak english or irish and respect our laws but dress in a western fashion?
fie,fie say I

and there is no need for them to play for the local gaa i don't and you probably don't either

lagente

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by equality of women? Does a healthy respect for gender differences and a wish that confusion which is damaging to everyone enter this area mean not tolerating the equality of women?.

LMAO

Maybe they should let their women not wear burkas in dublin, or god help us, date non-muslim Irish men?
Maybe give those women the freedom to not be part of a religion that hates the Irish gay community.

Or would this be disrespectful to gender differences?

JustinDee

Yonge Street wrote: »

Speak for yourself. Do you have any statistically evidence to back up your claim that immigrants are more literate than the Irish. According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate Ireland's literacy rate ranks higher than every single African country

First of all, don't quote Wikipedia if you wish to gain any form of credibility on your anti-Islamic thread. It can be edited by any old duffer to suit their agenda.
Read what I posted. It is an opinion and formed in my own experience of Irish residents/citizens and non-Irish. Additionally, a nice little example would be the posts in these forums. Truly woeful command of the English language.
Instead of thinking for yourself, you seem to just cherry-pick what suits you, such as the website run by a fundmentalist religious group. Their editorial line isn't "fact", as you claim, but just that, an editorial line.

Yonge Street

JustinDee wrote: »

First of all, don't quote Wikipedia if you wish to gain any form of credibility on your anti-Islamic thread.

Ok, here is an alternative link from the CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html And guess what - you're still wrong. Ireland has better literacy rates than our African and Arab immigrants.

Read what I posted. It is an opinion and formed in my own experience of Irish residents/citizens and non-Irish. Additionally, a nice little example would be the posts in these forums. Truly woeful command of the English language.
Instead of thinking for yourself, you seem to just cherry-pick what suits you, such as the website run by a fundmentalist religious group. Their editorial line isn't "fact", as you claim, but just that, an editorial line.

You spelt fundamentalist wrong. An example of poor literacy in this forum indeed.

JustinDee

Yonge Street wrote: »

Ok, here is an alternative link from the CIA. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html And guess what - you're still wrong. Ireland has better literacy rates than our African and Arab immigrants

Again, subjective. Unless you've got a report on the immigrants coming to Ireland? What you've linked is a website pertaining to their countries of origin. Not the immigrants themselves. Subjective generalism, a fault of many a xenophobic view.

Yonge Street wrote: »

You spelt fundamentalist wrong. An example of poor literacy in this forum indeed.

A simple typo, that's all. However followed by a weak and childish retort. You not knowing how to apply an adverb correctly isn't doing much for your reply either.

Nodin

Yonge Street wrote: »

I stand by my belief that burqas and all veils covering the face should be banned in Europe. Again there are practical reasons for this like verifying ID. I can't walk into a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet for security reasons. Care to address this?

I referred to it with "whatever about covering the face" as there are arguments for and against based on logic. Do you know what percentage of women actually wear it in France?

Yonge Street wrote: »

Correct. North Africans have been in France for a long time, so it's even more remarkable that they still haven't integrated. North African-French cheer on Algeria in football matches rather than France. They despise the country they live in and trash their communes. A "fcuk the police" attitude rules. Listen to any French rap song. Or even better, visit France's suburbs. Remember the 2005 riots? I wonder when we're due the next riot.

Sweeping generalisations once more.

What percentage of North Africans "haven't integrated"?

What percentage "despise the country they live in and trash their communes"?

You realise that rioting and France and French culture are not strangers?

Yonge Street wrote: »

Whether it was an official state policy or not, multiculturalism is plain to see in France today.

Somebody of non-European ancestry on the street =/= multiculturalism. I'd suggest you look into exactly what multiculturalism is. Canada, so I'm told, take it quite seriously.

Yonge Street wrote: »

Anyway, multiculturalism was a state policy in UK. Care to address that abomination?

I don't recall anything happening there in that regard that warrants the term "abomination".

Yonge Street wrote:

Debate facts with me. What specifically in the book is hysterical tabloid nonsense?

...Britain losing control of its borders, the removal of "piggy banks" from Banks, the idea that Foriegn policy was not in part responsible for radicalisation when numerous reports from the government said otherwise, the dubious linkage of the shia revival....stuff and nonsense.

Yonge Street wrote:

No, it is racism - against native whites.

And again - you're talking a classic racist line. Where, by the way, is the proof for a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing?

Yonge Street wrote:

Again you're being dismissive of the source without dealing with the content. Debate facts.

When you raise them, I will indeed.

Yonge Street

JustinDee wrote: »

Again, subjective. Unless you've got a report on the immigrants coming to Ireland. What you've linked is a website pertaining to their countries of origin. Not the immigrants themselves. Subjective generalism, a fault of many a xenophobic view.
Don't give up the day job.

A simple typo, that's all. However followed by a weak and childish retort. You not knowing how to apply an adverb correctly isn't doing much for your reply either.

Facts are subjective now I give up. You can't teach people that are unwilling to learn. You have your own little worldview and are unwilling to open your mind.
Also are you calling me xenophobic?

K-9

booom wrote: »

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/august/islamization-of-paris-a-warning-to-the-west/

Mod

Could you please outline exactly where that article backs up the questions asked?

Seems an opinion piece to me.

lagente

I wonder when Ireland will celebrate it's 100,000 member of this religion of punishing gays and women who step even a little out of line.

Or has it occurred already?

Nodin

lagente wrote: »

I wonder when Ireland will celebrate it's 100,000 member of this religion of punishing gays and women who step even a little out of line.

Or has it occurred already?

....which religion would that be?

K-9

Mod

Reading back over this thread there's a couple of links to this CBN site. I can't see many taking it as an objective source so could posters please refrain from using it, in the interests of having a good discussion.

Yonge Street

K-9 wrote: »

booom wrote: »

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/august/islamization-of-paris-a-warning-to-the-west/

Mod

Could you please outline exactly where that article backs up the questions asked?

Seems an opinion piece to me.

I didn't post up that link but it appears to contain a video recording of a large number of Muslims illegally blocking off public streets in Paris so they can pray. In other words, this is fact - it actually happened.

Nodin

Yonge Street wrote: »

I didn't post up that link but it appears to contain a video recording of a large number of Muslims illegally blocking off public streets in Paris so they can pray. In other words, this is fact - it actually happened.

It contains a number of muslims in a paris street, praying. From such, little earth shattering can be drawn.

lagente

Nodin wrote: »

It contains a number of muslims in a paris street, praying. From such, little earth shattering can be drawn.

City validating the religion of Islam, which punishes gays and women who step out of line. Perhaps?
And also that people are often stupid and cowardly enough to be part of this religion.

HamletOrHecuba

lagente wrote: »

LMAO

Maybe they should let their women not wear burkas in dublin, or god help us, date non-muslim Irish men?
Maybe give those women the freedom to not be part of a religion that hates the Irish gay community.

Or would this be disrespectful to gender differences?

Well I was thinking more of traditional Christians and ordinary Muslims as opposed to the Burka wearing crowd but did it ever occur to you to ask why so many western women are taking up Islam or that their women might want to wear burkas and note date outside their Faith? I mean an inter-faith marriage might to be okay until kids come along and than there is always going to be tension. For normal people their Faith is the most important thing that shapes everything else in their lives and if you cant share that with your spouse it is bound to create problems in the relationship.

I would presume that they pity the Irish gay community with its high levels of suicide, promiscuity, drug taking, etc as opposed to hate them.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Slagging off a march you don't even know the reason behind. Very convincing. Get back to us when you have some information about the whole thing.

"hysteria". There's a word.

In fairness to Batsy,his post only described an event known to him locally.

His "slagging-off",if that be it,was directed at his Local Authority and Constabulary for,what appears to be a challengable refusal to conform to the principles of equality which they supposedly advocate?

The local print media have a long running affinity with covering the various festivities...

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/4873617.Right_wing_protest_march_plan_sparks_outrage/

Mind you,the same Newspaper also confirms my own beliefs about the attitude with which the UK Government approached it's Gaddaffi problem.....

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/9539755.Missile_factory_employees_were_key_to_Libya_success/

Good to see the performance of Bolton produced hardware will advance UK military hardware sales in the region....(North Africa,that is )....which I suppose could tenuously be described as Military Integration and Multiculturalism at work....although I'm unsure where that leaves Bolton folk such as Batsy ?

Batsy

Nodin wrote: »

It contains a number of muslims in a paris street, praying. From such, little earth shattering can be drawn.

The conclusion that can be drawn is that those Muslims are deliberately breaking the law.

The video was shot by a hidden camera in Paris in 2010 by a Parisian who is worried about the Islamisation of his city. He goes by the pseudonym "Maxime Lepante." The video shows Muslims worshipping in public, blocking the street and using private security, all of which are illegal in France.

"The Muslims are blocking the streets with barriers. They are praying on the ground. And the inhabitants of this district cannot leave their homes, nor go into their homes during those prayers.

The Muslims taking over those streets do not have any authorization.

They do not go to the police headquarters, so it's completely illegal," he says.

The Muslims in the street have been granted unofficial rights that no Christian group is likely to get under France's laïcité, or secularism law.

"It says people have the right to share any belief they want, any religion," Lepante explained. "But they have to practice at home or in the mosque, synagogues, churches and so on."

Some say Muslims must pray in the street because they need a larger mosque. But Lepante has observed cars coming from other parts of Paris, and he believes it is a weekly display of growing Muslim power.

"They are coming there to show that they can take over some French streets to show that they can conquer a part of the French territory," he said.

Read more: http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/august/islamization-of-paris-a-warning-to-the-west/

Nodin

lagente wrote: »

City validating a religion of Islam, which punishes gays and women who step out of line. Perhaps?
And also that people are often stupid enough to be part of this religion.

You presume that everyone covered under the label "Islam" subscribes to an exact and identical set of beliefs on each and every issue.

Punishing somebody for being gay and doing same to women who "step out of line" would be an offence against French law. Therefore neither the city of Paris or the French state is "validating" anything.

Labelling followers of any religion as "stupid" is a rather kneejerk and simplistic attitude to take to a complex and widespread phenomena.

Batsy

Nodin wrote: »

Slagging off a march you don't even know the reason behind. Very convincing. Get back to us when you have some information about the whole thing.

A march which Bolton Council allows to take place every year, despite the fact that it costs money to police it, yet when the Royal British Legion wanted to do a similar march through the town last year Bolton Council said that the march couldn't take place because it couldn't afford to police it.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

In fairness to Batsy,his post only described an event known to him locally.

His "slagging-off",if that be it,was directed at his Local Authority and Constabulary for,what appears to be a challengable refusal to conform to the principles of equality which they supposedly advocate?

The local print media have a long running affinity with covering the various festivities...

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/4873617.Right_wing_protest_march_plan_sparks_outrage/

That refers to a bunch of xenophobes, racists and right wing extremists often associated with the BNP. The small muslim group is not what Batsy seemed to be referring to.

AlekSmart

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

. For normal people their Faith is the most important thing that shapes everything else in their lives and if you cant share that with your spouse it is bound to create problems in the relationship.

I would presume that they pity the Irish gay community with its high levels of suicide, promiscuity, drug taking, etc as opposed to hate them.

Hmmmm H or H,those statements,I'm afraid might not be quite accurate in modern Ireland...perhaps back in the 1950's the presence and power of organized religion,in our case Catholicism,did indeed occupy the position you declare.

However,the arrival of the Lemass era in the 1960's very firmly began a process which is just about working through today.

Indeed it can be argued that the problems you ascribe to the Irish Gay community could very well be associated with the very religious domination you appear to hold as virtuous ?

lagente

Nodin wrote: »

You presume that everyone covered under the label "Islam" subscribes to an exact and identical set of beliefs on each and every issue.

Punishing somebody for being gay and doing same to women who "step out of line" would be an offence against French law. Therefore neither the city of Paris or the French state is "validating" anything.

Labelling followers of any religion as "stupid" is a rather kneejerk and simplistic attitude to take to a complex and widespread phenomena.

Not really, anyone who calls themself a Muslim validates it.
Islam teaches to punish gays, which all muslim countries certainly do. We see clearly in Ireland how they widely treat women.
To hell with that religion.

Nodin

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Well...........

I would presume that they pity the Irish gay community with its high levels of suicide, promiscuity, drug taking, etc as opposed to hate them.

O dear o dear.

K-9

Yonge Street wrote: »

I didn't post up that link but it appears to contain a video recording of a large number of Muslims illegally blocking off public streets in Paris so they can pray. In other words, this is fact - it actually happened.

It's proof of one event, that wasn't the question asked.

Posting up a link and nothing else leads to this type of confusion.

Yonge Street

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Well I was thinking more of traditional Christians and ordinary Muslims as opposed to the Burka wearing crowd but did it ever occur to you to ask why so many western women are taking up Islam or that their women might want to wear burkas and note date outside their Faith? I mean an inter-faith marriage might to be okay until kids come along and than there is always going to be tension. For normal people their Faith is the most important thing that shapes everything else in their lives and if you cant share that with your spouse it is bound to create problems in the relationship.

I would presume that they pity the Irish gay community with its high levels of suicide, promiscuity, drug taking, etc as opposed to hate them.

The part in bold is laughable. Homosexuality is banned in every single Muslim majority country in the world because they pity them? They hang homosexuals in Saudi Arabia because they pity? You are clutching at straws.

I don't agree with their primitive attitudes to gays but they have a right to create their own laws, I guess. However, I object to Muslims imposing their barbaric laws onto Europeans.

What's an "ordinary" Muslim by the way?

Batsy

Nodin wrote: »

That refers to a bunch of xenophobes, racists and right wing extremists often associated with the BNP. The small muslim group is not what Batsy seemed to be referring to.

Is that the same EDL whose main aim is the opposition of radical Islam in the UK?

Yeah, a very nasty lot them lot. The EDL protest against the rise of violent Islam in the UK, a form of Islam which wants to turn the UK into a Muslim state ruled by the brutal Sharia Law. How dare the EDL protest against such a thing?! What's wrong with hanging a few gay men from cranes in front of Bolton Town Hall and stoning a few women to death for adultery on Blackpool Beach? The EDL must be opposed!

(I'm being sarcastic).

They've also got many Muslims as members, who are angry at the bad name these radical Muslims are giving their religion.

And the spokesman for the EDL is a Sikh.

Nodin

Batsy wrote: »

A march which Bolton Council allows to take place every year, despite the fact that it costs money to police it, yet when the Royal British Legion wanted to do a similar march through the town last year Bolton Council said that the march couldn't take place because it couldn't afford to police it.

When you present facts about that specific march, we'll discuss it.

lagente wrote:

Not really, anyone who calls themself a Muslim validates it..

Alevi muslims, shia muslims, Sunni muslims of the wahabbi sect, allawi...all sign up to the exact same thing?

And do all muslims share the exact same fervour?

lagente wrote:

We see clearly in Ireland how they widely treat women...

I seem to have missed that. You have a few links to the various news stories on the subject?

Nodin

Batsy wrote: »

............

They've also got many Muslims as member, who are angry at the bad name these radical Muslims are giving their religion..

As I once saw in a documentary an African American man in a confederate uniform campaigning for reparations for the south, I suppose its possible.

Batsy

Nodin wrote: »

As I once saw in a documentary an African American man in a confederate uniform campaigning for reparations for the south, I suppose its possible.

Of course it's possible for Muslims to be in the EDL. The only way it won't be possible is if ALL Muslims want the UK to be a Muslim state under Sharia Law. But they don't, and that's why the EDL has Muslim members.

JustinDee

Yonge Street wrote: »

Facts are subjective now I give up. You can't teach people that are unwilling to learn. You have your own little worldview and are unwilling to open your mind.
Also are you calling me xenophobic?

How is being unwilling to bow down to selective myopia and irrational sweeping generalisms a refusal to open my mind?? It is nothing of a kind.
Its unlikely you'll ever teach anyone anything than this pro-agendaic line of yours disguising 'Muslim issues' as immigration issues.
Simply scaremongering, as with those daft xenophobic fundamentalist websites you linked.

lagente

What exactly does Xenophobic mean? Some definitions of it imply that race is not necessarily a part of it .

Yonge Street

I think we all could all agree that a secular state would aid cultural integration, yes? No religion should be given a privileged status in our constitution. Sure, our state laws may share certain values with various organized religions. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" is an important rule in Islam and Christianity (despite their followers not adhering strictly to it). But more importantly, our state laws do not agree with major organized religions on other issues, such as homosexuality. This is why I agree with the banning of religious symbols like the hijab and buqa in public.

Jaafa

Yonge Street wrote: »

The part in bold is laughable. Homosexuality is banned in every single Muslim majority country in the world because they pity them? They hang homosexuals in Saudi Arabia because they pity? You are clutching at straws.

I don't agree with their primitive attitudes to gays but they have a right to create their own laws, I guess. However, I object to Muslims imposing their barbaric laws onto Europeans.

What's an "ordinary" Muslim by the way?

Hi.