Laws for Playing on Private Land?

Yuri

Hey,

I've recently gotten permission off my uncle to use his farmland in Monaghan. It would be a private game of airsoft with ten or so mates and was just wondering is there any specific laws or permissions we need to acquire? Should I ring the local Garda station beforehand so the locals don't mind ten or so lads running around a field (private land) with airsoft guns and dressed in DPM?

Links or advice appreciated,

Cheers.

Airsoft Reloded

Yuri wrote: »

Hey,

I've recently gotten permission off my uncle to use his farmland in Monaghan. It would be a private game of airsoft with ten or so mates and was just wondering is there any specific laws or permissions we need to acquire? Should I ring the local Garda station beforehand so the locals don't mind ten or so lads running around a field (private land) with airsoft guns and dressed in DPM?

Links or advice appreciated,

Cheers.

Noone is allowed to wear Irish DPM (ever), you need a change of use on the land, or an exemption (planning department), you need public liability insurance (broker), inform the super in your local cop shop. Make sure the public can't see onto you land either.

T4RGET

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

Noone is allowed to wear Irish DPM (ever), you need a change of use on the land, or an exemption (planning department), you need public liability insurance (broker), inform the super in your local cop shop. Make sure the public can't see onto you land either.

I thought private land was fully allowed as long as you let the local Gardai know and you have permission, didn't realise you needed insurance for that too, thought that was just public sites. just on a side note, the OP doesn't say anything about irish DPM just DPM

Deadpool

The insureance is to cover the owner from nasty surprises.We are all friends until you break a hand or leg and cant go to work and now to cant pay your bills......ect.Wait a claim will save me.and if it came down to feeding the kids or people not being friends anymore,well i know what wins.There is also the the poor lad/lady out walking there dog/cat/goldfish and gets shot in the face through no fault of their own.

callum wallace

T4RGET wrote: »

I thought private land was fully allowed as long as you let the local Gardai know and you have permission, didn't realise you needed insurance for that too, thought that was just public sites. just on a side note, the OP doesn't say anything about irish DPM just DPM

there is no such thing as public airsoft sites all of them are privately owned and those sights should be the only place airsoft should be played unless the correct paperwork is done

Zomg Okay

callum wallace wrote: »

there is no such thing as public airsoft sites all of them are privately owned and those sights should be the only place airsoft should be played unless the correct paperwork is done

I think by 'public' he meant sites where you can show up for a Sunday skirmish without an invitation, as opposed to a publicly owned area.

T4RGET

Zomg Okay wrote: »

I think by 'public' he meant sites where you can show up for a Sunday skirmish without an invitation, as opposed to a publicly owned area.

what he said :P should have clarified

callum wallace

T4RGET wrote: »

what he said :P should have clarified

ha fair enough:p

Yuri

T4RGET wrote: »

I thought private land was fully allowed as long as you let the local Gardai know and you have permission, didn't realise you needed insurance for that too, thought that was just public sites. just on a side note, the OP doesn't say anything about irish DPM just DPM

Yeah all of us have British/other DPM/no DPM.

Zomg Okay wrote:

I think by 'public' he meant sites where you can show up for a Sunday skirmish without an invitation, as opposed to a publicly owned area.

I meant by private land as somewhere we could go and shoot airsoft guns without having to pay someone for use, sign insurance/wavers etc. For example I'd have thought my back garden was private land where I would'nt have to get a permit to use an airsoft gun outside. Although I could be wrong there. Would a back garden (if it was a place I legally wouldn't need permission to use a gun) not be equal to my uncles field?

Airsoft Reloaded wrote:

you need a change of use on the land, or an exemption (planning department), you need public liability insurance (broker),

With regards to the insurance, do I need or it just advisable to get it? If it is advisable, all my friends that will be playing are very good mates over years so I can't see them suing me/landowner but I understand that they might.

For the change of use, is that entirely necessary since I won't be charging money for the game? Since Airsoft is a Hobby, would it not be the equivalent of a few lands going for a friendly football match in their uncle's field?

callum wallace

yuri if i were you i would phone up an airsoft sight like red barn, stumallan any sight in Ireland. ask them the questions to them cause not all of us are 100% , cause we don't want to fell responsible if armed gardi come to your land because there were a bunch of boys running about in combat gear with guns, if you do this wrong there is a small chance it could determin the sport in the country

callum wallace

Yuri wrote: »

Yeah all of us have British/other DPM/no DPM.
would it not be the equivalent of a few lands going for a friendly football match in their uncle's field?

NOT AT ALL, LISTEN IF I WERE YOU SPEND THE 20 QUID WITH YOUR FRIENDS FOR A DAY OUT at a sight WITH YOUR MATES
trust me 20 quid beats a hefty fine if this goes wrong and any who sees this click the thanks button if you agree with me

Evade

callum wallace wrote: »

Yuri wrote: »

Since Airsoft is a Hobby, would it not be the equivalent of a few lands going for a friendly football match in their uncle's field?

NOT AT ALL, LISTEN IF I WERE YOU SPEND THE 20 QUID WITH YOUR FRIENDS FOR A DAY OUT at a sight WITH YOUR MATES
trust me 20 quid beats a hefty fine if this goes wrong and any who sees this click the thanks button if you agree with me

As long as it's out of public view, under 1 joule, etc. how is it any different than a game of football?

You could just as easily sue for injuring yourself playing football on someone elses land as you could for playing airsoft.

Yuri

callum wallace wrote: »

yuri if i were you i would phone up an airsoft sight like red barn, stumallan any sight in Ireland. ask them the questions to them cause not all of us are 100% , cause we don't want to fell responsible if armed gardi come to your land

Yeah think I'll try phoning them up because I was definitely hoping for more certain answers rather than opinions (Which while appreciated aren't exactly what I'm looking for.)

callum wallace wrote: »

because there were a bunch of boys running about in combat gear with guns, if you do this wrong there is a small chance it could determin the sport in the country

I don't really see how it could have a negative affect on the sport since week in and week out there's people playing Airsoft out in the open all over the country (albeit on registered sites) but I'll take that into consideration.

Evade wrote: »

As long as it's out of public view, under 1 joule, etc. how is it any different than a game of football?

You could just as easily sue for injuring yourself playing football on someone elses land as you could for playing airsoft.

I agree, I can't see the difference but that's why is started this thread to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I'll ring up a few sites and talk to people and take it from there.

callum wallace wrote: »

NOT AT ALL, LISTEN IF I WERE YOU SPEND THE 20 QUID WITH YOUR FRIENDS FOR A DAY OUT at a sight WITH YOUR MATES

One of my problems with Airsoft is the fact I have to pay a decent bit for it (€20 and upwards) for a few hours when I have all the gear... but that's probably a topic for another thread.
If there's a chance I could get a regular free game for me and my mates I feel it's worth looking into.

jayod30

Try popping an email to the Irish Airsoft Association, if anyone can give you advice here I'm sure they can

Airsoft Reloded

Yuri wrote: »

With regards to the insurance, do I need or it just advisable to get it? If it is advisable, all my friends that will be playing are very good mates over years so I can't see them suing me/landowner but I understand that they might.

For the change of use, is that entirely necessary since I won't be charging money for the game? Since Airsoft is a Hobby, would it not be the equivalent of a few lands going for a friendly football match in their uncle's field?

The change of use is necessary but as your a group of mates you could definitely argue that it's basically a few mates having a match on private land (I have to admit I didn't even notice the private game part).

As for the insurance well yeah, it's just to protect you and the landowner. If someone is injured someone must always be liable and if you have no insurance then it's the landlord that flips the bill and as you pointed out yourself (and someone said earlier) friends do sometimes try to **** each other over.

Airsoft Reloded

Evade wrote: »

As long as it's out of public view, under 1 joule, etc. how is it any different than a game of football?

You could just as easily sue for injuring yourself playing football on someone elses land as you could for playing airsoft.

Which is why the football pitches are insured.

clubberlang12

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

Which is why the football pitches are insured.

Bad comparison. Any club playing in an FAI registered league have club insurance which is usually paid for by the players themselves. The grounds will probably, but not in all cases, have some form of public liability for members of the public which may spectate. What you have suggested in your comparison is in fact a comparison to going to play in an insured airsoft site. If you decide to grab a couple of your mates and head down to your local pitch and play there without permission from the club, which you probably won't get, you don't have a leg to stand on, pardon the pun, insurance wise if something happened you.

The situation the previous posters are comparing it to is the same as going over to your friends house, garden, field, etc and having a kick around there with your friends. I don't anyone will ever take out insurance to do that. I know we, or anyone i know, has ever done such a thing.

Airsoft Reloded

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Bad comparison. Any club playing in an FAI registered league have club insurance which is usually paid for by the players themselves. The grounds will probably, but not in all cases, have some form of public liability for members of the public which may spectate. What you have suggested in your comparison is in fact a comparison to going to play in an insured airsoft site. If you decide to grab a couple of your mates and head down to your local pitch and play there without permission from the club, which you probably won't get, you don't have a leg to stand on, pardon the pun, insurance wise if something happened you.

Which is why the person giving permission is liable and must have insurance to protect himself, it's not a bad comparison at all really. There is also a chance of getting sued simply because of a tripping hazard e.t.c on site.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

The situation the previous posters are comparing it to is the same as going over to your friends house, garden, field, etc and having a kick around there with your friends. I don't anyone will ever take out insurance to do that. I know we, or anyone i know, has ever done such a thing.

Granted I don't think anyone would either but agian if someone hurts themselves in your garden they can sometimes sue. My point is obviously get insurance so you can't be sued and have to pay out yourself. If it is a private club whats the harm in asking everyone thats going to visit to pay a little bit of cash each towards a policy?

clubberlang12

I understand your thinking on the matter but it is not really a "must" but more a sensible idea to have insurance. Simple thing to do is get the other people playing to sign a disclaimer before playing saying they know the hazardous terrain and play there of their own free will. I'm by no means a legal expert but i'd be interested to hear whether i could sue my neighbour if i injured myself playing a game of football on their property. I don't know anyone that has any kind of public liability insurance for such a thing on their house or surrounding garden, lands, etc.

Airsoft Reloded

clubberlang12 wrote: »

I understand your thinking on the matter but it is not really a "must" but more a sensible idea to have insurance. Simple thing to do is get the other people playing to sign a disclaimer before playing saying they know the hazardous terrain and play there of their own free will. I'm by no means a legal expert but i'd be interested to hear whether i could sue my neighbour if i injured myself playing a game of football on their property. I don't know anyone that has any kind of public liability insurance for such a thing on their house or surrounding garden, lands, etc.

I already said it doesn't have to be done but rather it is a good idea, waivers don't eliminate the chance of getting sued (All the person has to say is that they didn't understand it or that they only signed it because they were'nt allowed in otherwise) and yes you could very easily sue your neighbour if you were invited onto thier land to play a game and end up hurting yourself due to a safety hazard on site.

But sure anyway OP, I'd advise getting a small bit of public liability and ask the people you intend on playing there to cough up a bit of the cash each.

Inari

You can sue anyone for anything. It doesn't matter if you're right, if you're wrong, or if you're plain bonkers. That doesn't really come into it until the verdict.

If a couple of lads play on a pitch owned by someone, and even if they're trespassing, they can still sue and can still win. It all comes down under liability and negligence, and unfortunately we live in a law-suit happy country.

Waivers, Disclaimers and other forms are just pieces of a pie used to show that you have taken necessary steps to remove as much negligent behaviour as possible. However, if the land is unsuitable, and if a friend injured themselves, then he could very well make a claim.

But let's forget about that. If you own the land, and have official permission, and once it's outside of public view (and access), then you're fine for leisure use. You cannot run an airsoft site or club without change of use, and all of that.

Realistically you are better off playing on proper skirmish sites - you remove all liability, you have a site with better facilities, and you'll likely have more fun. Hell, you can even rent out most sites, so if it was a case of just wanting to play with your friends, it's still all possible

Gaz2010

Ring the garda and tell them just to be 100% sure.

Other than that you can even blast away with a shotgun or rifle if you want. As for insurance and waiver forms just to have a plink with your mates......never heard such tosh in my life to be honest.

You'll be told to put grip tape on your toilet seat incase somebody falls off it next.

gerrowadat

Have to fall on the side of the 'just do it' brigade here. If you're playing footy with your mates on your land and someone falls and breaks their snot, they can sue you just as hard as if something happened playing airsoft. In fact it's probably more likely to happen with a game of footy. Think about how many people you know with football injuries.

The only thing you have to worry about is the brandishing laws. Make sure nobody can see you from any public place, and nobody is going to wander on the site. Job done.

Airsoft Reloded

I was just pointing out the fact that you are liable but at the end of the day there are risks in everything.

Yuri

gerrowadat wrote: »

The only thing you have to worry about is the brandishing laws. Make sure nobody can see you from any public place, and nobody is going to wander on the site. Job done.

I was only interested in what had to be done to legally play and this goes somewhat to clearing it up.

Thanks for all the replies.

BioHazRd

The one thing you absolutely need is the written permission of the local Garda superintendent. He/she may put some conditions on it such as insurance etc. but they have the power to do that. Once you have the permission, you're sorted.
Getting the permission may involve some meetings / interviews and 1 or more site inspections by the CPO and or firearms officer.
Without the written permission of a superintendent, you are technically operating an illegal site, and it could end up causing you considerable grief.

TheDoc

gerrowadat wrote: »

Have to fall on the side of the 'just do it' brigade here. If you're playing footy with your mates on your land and someone falls and breaks their snot, they can sue you just as hard as if something happened playing airsoft. In fact it's probably more likely to happen with a game of footy. Think about how many people you know with football injuries.

The only thing you have to worry about is the brandishing laws. Make sure nobody can see you from any public place, and nobody is going to wander on the site. Job done.

^

And also the bit about ringing the Guards just to inform them of whats happening. Gives piece of mind and if they get a call about " terrorists training" then they know what its about

Be smart ,sensible, avoid being in the public eye and have a good time. I'd love to have something like that where I could bring the lads out for a shoot and have small numbers and guaranteed no bull****.

And to clarify, football pitches are definitly not insured. A lengthy court case with the Dublin Corpo by my football club on my behalf very much proved that. Tore all the ligaments in my ankle when I was playing in pitches in Finglas, where a a kid had dug a hole with a golf club.

I'd advise getting a little agreement signed by your mates that say they wont sue you, rather then forking a penny for insurance. You can still sue someone with insurance

TheDoc

BioHazRd wrote: »

The one thing you absolutely need is the written permission of the local Garda superintendent. He/she may put some conditions on it such as insurance etc. but they have the power to do that. Once you have the permission, you're sorted.
Getting the permission may involve some meetings / interviews and 1 or more site inspections by the CPO and or firearms officer.
Without the written permission of a superintendent, you are technically operating an illegal site, and it could end up causing you considerable grief.

For the interest of curioisty.

If I have land that I own, am I not entitled to have friends over to play airsoft?

As I'm not earning money, exchanging anything fiscal, surely it cannot be labelled as a "site".

I was always under the impression that you could pretty much do what you wanted on private land once it is legal, and that the public do not feel/fear threatened from said act.

Just as I could have 10 lads over for a BBQ and Beers , have ten lads over for a game of ball, I was under the impressions I could have lads over for airsoft if the area of play was fit for purpose.

There is more privatly run invite only games then there are public walk on sites, and I'm just wondering if this was new since I don't follow the IAA updates much.

BioHazRd

TheDoc wrote: »

^

And also the bit about ringing the Guards just to inform them of whats happening. Gives piece of mind and if they get a call about " terrorists training" then they know what its about

unfortunately thats not enough - you need written permission from the super

BioHazRd

TheDoc wrote: »

For the interest of curioisty.

If I have land that I own, am I not entitled to have friends over to play airsoft?

As I'm not earning money, exchanging anything fiscal, surely it cannot be labelled as a "site".

Wrong - (CJA2009)9B.—(1) The Superintendent of any district may authorise in writing the possession, use or carriage of realistic imitation firearms in that district at a specified location during such period, not exceeding one year, as may be specified in the authorisation

Therefore, whether you run a site or a field for your mates, it is still a specified location in the eyes of the law

TheDoc wrote: »

I was always under the impression that you could pretty much do what you wanted on private land once it is legal, and that the public do not feel/fear threatened from said act.

Just as I could have 10 lads over for a BBQ and Beers , have ten lads over for a game of ball, I was under the impressions I could have lads over for airsoft if the area of play was fit for purpose.

There is more privatly run invite only games then there are public walk on sites, and I'm just wondering if this was new since I don't follow the IAA updates much.

If the public have access to the area (whether they have permission or not) then you run the risk of falling foul of the brandishing in public clause

9A.—(1) Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him or her), has a realistic imitation firearm with him or her in any public place, that person shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable:
(i) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both, or
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both.
(3) In this section “public place” includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise, and includes any club premises and any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.

TheDoc

Your not invited to the milsim in my backgarden....

In all seriousness cheers, its genuinelly something I always wondered and was definitly grey about

Deadpool

So if i have a field where i have clear signage stating "no trespassing private land"and is clearly not public, i can have as many RIF's as i want?

sliabh

BioHazRd wrote: »

Wrong - (CJA2009)9B.—(1) The Superintendent of any district may authorise in writing the possession, use or carriage of realistic imitation firearms in that district at a specified location during such period, not exceeding one year, as may be specified in the authorisation

Therefore, whether you run a site or a field for your mates, it is still a specified location in the eyes of the law

If the public have access to the area (whether they have permission or not) then you run the risk of falling foul of the brandishing in public clause

9A.—(1) Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him or her), has a realistic imitation firearm with him or her in any public place, that person shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable:
(i) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both, or
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both.
(3) In this section “public place” includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise, and includes any club premises and any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.

While IANAL, I think this is a rather sweeping interpretation of the act.

Under this interpretation, if I step outside of my parents house (in rural Limerick, on farm land, but arguably within sight of other house several hundred metres away), and zero my sights by plinking at some cans I am potentially engaged in a criminal activity as it is:

use or carriage of realistic imitation firearms

Because there is no distinction in the act as far as I can see between skirmishing and plinking. And secondly the location arguably is a

premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise

There are couple things I would comment on. First some legal clarification on how "the public have.. ..access" is needed. In order to see me, Joe Public would have to be trespassing on my parents property, walk a few hundred metres from the public road, and go around the back of the shed to where I am. I would want an opinion from a proper lawyer that precedent and whatever says this would be regarded as a place the public have access to (as opposed to lets say unauthorised use of some Coillte land which is generally publicly accessible to anyone with a decent pair of boots).

So the way the act is being presented at the moment, it seems that if you pull the trigger of an airsoft gun anywhere other than an approved skirmish site you could in theory be prosecuted. I don't think that is a realistic position.

I have seen some rather wonky interpretations of the law presented here on Boards and the IAA site to the effect that if I was with my father in one of his fields, and he is carrying his legally held shotgun while and I have an airsoft springer, then I can be arrested if we come within sight of his neighbours (but he is fine).

The reality is that in order to be convicted the Guards, the DPP and a Judge in turn have to be convinced you have broken the law. Whether you have or not will be a fuzzy area until the case is presented in a court. But a lot of what will happen before anyone brings a prosecution will depend on whether they feel you have been a dick/nuisance and need to be prosecuted for the good of society/to make an example of you. And that will probably come down to the personalities rather than blindly following the letter of the law.

BioHazRd

sliabh wrote: »

While IANAL, I think this is a rather sweeping interpretation of the act.

IANAL either, but I was in communication with the DOJ after the implementation of the act, so there are a couple of points to note:
1. I agree that clarification would be nice, but I feel the act was worded in such a way as to leave as much open to interpretation as possible.
2. The only way to get definitives is to take a test case, and these cost money
3. the only way to keep airsoft on a secure footing is to "play nicely" with the powers that be at least till we can be seen to be a responsible group, and then maybe we can try and negotiate some wiggle room
4. common sense prevails more than you may realise

sliabh wrote: »

So the way the act is being presented at the moment, it seems that if you pull the trigger of an airsoft gun anywhere other than an approved skirmish site you could in theory be prosecuted. I don't think that is a realistic position.

As you say yourself, "in theory" yes it is possible, but unless you are doing something obviously wrong (playing in a public area / areas you dont have permission to be, etc), then yes it is unlikely, but please refer to point 2 above

sliabh wrote: »

I have seen some rather wonky interpretations of the law presented here on Boards and the IAA site to the effect that if I was with my father in one of his fields, and he is carrying his legally held shotgun while and I have an airsoft springer, then I can be arrested if we come within sight of his neighbours (but he is fine).

It seems that you are coming to your own interpretation here. Thats just plain ridiculous.

For anyone who wants to know more, have a look at http://irishairsoft.ie/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/airsoft_the_mpb_and_you.pdf

sliabh

BioHazRd wrote: »

IANAL either, but I was in communication with the DOJ after the implementation of the act, so there are a couple of points to note:
1. I agree that clarification would be nice, but I feel the act was worded in such a way as to leave as much open to interpretation as possible.
2. The only way to get definitives is to take a test case, and these cost money
3. the only way to keep airsoft on a secure footing is to "play nicely" with the powers that be at least till we can be seen to be a responsible group, and then maybe we can try and negotiate some wiggle room
4. common sense prevails more than you may realise

Yeah I totally agree with all of this. If the DOJ had a phrase for airsofters it would probably be "Don't push it" :-)

BioHazRd wrote: »

It seems that you are coming to your own interpretation here. Thats just plain ridiculous.

It's cross posting from the IAA site, which I apologise for, and please don't think I am taking a dig or anything but I did see this from yourself:

"After 2006 if somebody felt threatened by seeing your airsoft gun, you were guilty of assault. This would have meant the prosecution (if it went to court) would have had a lot of work to secure a conviction against you.
After 2009, the law was changed and introduced the crime of brandishing which means even if someone does not feel threatened, you are guilty of an offence which, upon conviction, could result in a fine of up to €5000 and / or up to 5 years in jail"

Re-reading it of course I presume you were referring to carrying airsoft guns in public.

But it is an interesting thought experiment to compare how we sometimes interpret the rules for us vs how they are for RS users. There aren't many circumstances where we would be held to a more stringent standard.

In that vein, and to drag this back towards the original topic, how would it be handled if 3 or 4 RS users met on private land to shoot together?

BioHazRd

sliabh wrote: »

If the DOJ had a phrase for airsofters it would probably be "Don't push it" :-)

Yup

sliabh wrote: »

I presume you were referring to carrying airsoft guns in public.

Exactly that - I dont think any serious airsofter would have anything to worry about there as most sites enforce a "guns in bags / cases" rule (dont they ?). we have to hope that any enforcement by the authorities here would be in the spirit of the law, which would allow us to carry on normally.

sliabh wrote: »

In that vein, and to drag this back towards the original topic, how would it be handled if 3 or 4 RS users met on private land to shoot together?

I will have to defer that answer to someone else, as I have no RS experience, or insight into how they are affected by the current laws here.

Witcher

sliabh wrote: »

In that vein, and to drag this back towards the original topic, how would it be handled if 3 or 4 RS users met on private land to shoot together?

A firearms licence entitles a person to 'have in their possession, use and carry' a firearm so if everyone had licences and the landowners permission then they could shoot clays/game, no target shooting with a rifle outside of an authorised range.

The airsoft law is absurd really.