Beef discussion group

josephsoap

What do ye make of this new beef discussion group ?

You have to attend 5 meetings and do two other tasks and you recieve €1000, but to have to pay over €300 on teagasc fees from the farmers journal

Don't think I'll be joining myself

whos going to sign up?

rocky bilboa

Think the whole beef discussion group scheme is a great idea.The dairy groups seem to have been a success so there is no reason beef ones shouldnt be. The costs that are involved are small compared to what you could get out of a group and considering you get 1000e to join one, for me it is a no brainer.

reilig

I think we will. Already a member of the local teagasc discussion group and find it most useful for information and ideas. Already using teagasc services - don't think they can charge 300 on top of what we already pay. Already reseed every year. Already use herdplus and have the herd register online and register all calves online. Already do the teagasc profit monitor and this year we did a herd health plan through our vet. I want to buy a scales so this will cover the cost of it. All of the measures are useful and would be beneficial to any farm whether you get paid for them or not - Just like the SCWS. Its money for old rope really!

josephsoap wrote: »

What do ye make of this new beef discussion group ?

You have to attend 5 meetings and do two other tasks and you recieve €1000, but to have to pay over €300 on teagasc fees from the farmers journal

Don't think I'll be joining myself

whos going to sign up?

Nobbies

from my reading of it in the indo on tuesday,it,s a three year scheme?is that correct?is it a once off payment of €1000 all at the one time?there,s acap on number,s entered too ithink.how can u apply for it?

reilig

Nobbies wrote: »

from my reading of it in the indo on tuesday,it,s a three year scheme?is that correct?is it a once off payment of €1000 all at the one time?there,s acap on number,s entered too ithink.how can u apply for it?

Its a 3 year scheme.
It will be 1000 every year. (1000x3)
Cap of 5000 on it but they don't expect it to be full.
You can get forms on the dep of ag website, in your local dep of ag office or in your local teagasc office.

leg wax

reilig wrote: »

Its a 3 year scheme.
It will be 1000 every year. (1000x3)
Cap of 5000 on it but they don't expect it to be full.
You can get forms on the dep of ag website, in your local dep of ag office or in your local teagasc office.

i was at meeting and covney said that if more people want to join the 1000 will drop.they dont have a clue as to how many will join.

49801

dont think we'll bother with it

MfMan

Unsure about it. Even though I fulfill a lot of the criteria, e.g. online herd management, regular livestock weighing etc. certain aspects of my place don't suit; don't think I could manage breaking up the grazing ground into 6 separate areas for each group. Also, a good bit of my land is too heavy to reseed - how much must be reseeded every year, is it 10% ? I don't think a lot of members will get too much monetary out of it, by the time reseeding costs, Teagasc fees, possible purchase of weighing scales etc. are taken into account, there won't be much left over. Just can't see it being oversubscribed.

josephsoap

I think they should have restored the SCWS back to €82 a cow instead.

TUBBY

Looks to me like the fee is going to be around 350 euro as there are a lot of non teagasc facilitators too so the fee people pay teagasc yearly doesnt come into it. Hoping that it will be subsidised if you are in Teagasc and you go with the Teagasc facilitator.

Also, there is the herdplus fee (you have to join this even though it is a glorified agfood.ie for lads that dont breed) which is E60. Thats E400 gone before it starts.

Have to go to the 5 meetings then so I dont think it is money for old rope. there are a good few claw backs.

Hope it is a constructive discussion group and not like the sample questions that the dept of agri website has.
Talk about baled silage etc.
Needs to be a bit more innovative than that to be useful.

island of tighe

im going to sign up.i go to a few farm walks every year anyway and i dont find some of the measures too taxing.it may also help to keep focused while the money will come in handy. its all positive as far as i can see,its a poor day you dont learn something new

ddogsbollix

sounds like a great idea how do i join???

blue5000

Have already joined up and ironically this came up, Minister coveny has earmarked 5m for this, so if 5000 farmers sign up thats 1k each, but if 20,000 farmers sign up there's only 250e each. The bottom line was that it will barely cover the teagasc fee, never mind bvd testing or signing up to herd plus.

But to be honest a good discussion group is worth more, beef farmers are 10-15 years behind dairy farmers as far as grass management is concerned. If a beef farmer could get 50 cows out 2 weeks earlier in spring and keep them on grass 2 weeks later in autumn and save 30 odd euro per cow that's 1500 euro saved per year. If only lads could see that instead of worrying about having to cough up 250e to join.

bob charles

Wont be joining, I disagree about beef farmers being so behind dairy farmers. If this is the case it no bad thing as some of the 'new age' thinking adopted by dairy farmers is insane. I have seen some setups bordering on cruelty.

Are those lads doing the thing in the Journal making a 1000 net per ha yet from suckling? Last time I saw it they were failing to include an land rent figure or opportunity cost for owned land

reilig

bob charles wrote: »

Wont be joining, I disagree about beef farmers being so behind dairy farmers. If this is the case it no bad thing as some of the 'new age' thinking adopted by dairy farmers is insane. I have seen some setups bordering on cruelty.

Are those lads doing the thing in the Journal making a 1000 net per ha yet from suckling? Last time I saw it they were failing to include an land rent figure or opportunity cost for owned land

I have to somewhat disagree with you Bob Charles and MfMan.

I don't think that beef farmers are so behind dairy farmers. However, it is quite evident that an awful lot of beef farmers are a long long way behind the top beef farmers. This is reflected in farm profits, animal sales prices, age of sale of animals etc.
There are so many simple things that people could do to improve this, make life better for themselves and have more money in their pockets for less work.

As a man who claims to buy and sell a lot of cattle Bob, do you not notice a difference in farmers by the cattle that they bring out for sale? Why do a small % of farmers achieve higher prices for a high % of their animals?


Mfman

I don't think a lot of members will get too much monetary out of it, by the time reseeding costs, Teagasc fees, possible purchase of weighing scales etc. are taken into account, there won't be much left over

The scheme isn't about putting money directly into farmers pockets. The €1000 is supposed to subsidise a little bit of learning so that you can implement new proceedures on your farm such as reseeding, using a planner, weighing animals, rotational grazing etc. The hope is that by educating you to implement these proceedures, you will be able to make more profit from what you have. So therefore, indirectly, this €1000 payment should have a good monetary value to you.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will never go hungry"

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

I have to somewhat disagree with you Bob Charles and MfMan.

I don't think that beef farmers are so behind dairy farmers. However, it is quite evident that an awful lot of beef farmers are a long long way behind the top beef farmers. This is reflected in farm profits, animal sales prices, age of sale of animals etc.
There are so many simple things that people could do to improve this, make life better for themselves and have more money in their pockets for less work.

As a man who claims to buy and sell a lot of cattle Bob, do you not notice a difference in farmers by the cattle that they bring out for sale? Why do a small % of farmers achieve higher prices for a high % of their animals?


Mfman


The scheme isn't about putting money directly into farmers pockets. The €1000 is supposed to subsidise a little bit of learning so that you can implement new proceedures on your farm such as reseeding, using a planner, weighing animals, rotational grazing etc. The hope is that by educating you to implement these proceedures, you will be able to make more profit from what you have. So therefore, indirectly, this €1000 payment should have a good monetary value to you.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will never go hungry"

from my experience of dealing with cattle it is usually the dairy cattle that are the worst reared i.e weight for age etc but thats a different story.

Reilig I agree to a point with some of what you are saying - but some of the criteria that you suggest differentiate a good beef farmer from a bad 1 are questionable i would say.

Age of animals at sale for instance indicates nothing in my opinion (within reason obviously) - it could lead to higher turnover but it could also lead to higher costs - nuts fertiliser etc. Same with animal sales prices - it isn't always the fella that is selling the highest price stock that is making the most money.

The key for me is profit which is equally driven by sales and costs, and this is true for any farm enterprise. It's easy look at the fella with a big slatted unit and newly reseeded ground and think he is a great farmer, truth be told a fella outwintering cattle on a bit of rock with only average quality grass could be doing as well if not better.

Been at the cattle business for 30 odd years now and certainly in the 2000's it didn't pay to have a high input system IMO - the prices just weren't good enough and costs increased rapidly. Maybe going forward if the beef price stays fairly strong it will once again pay to be in an intensive system - If it pays to be intensive then these discussion groups will help people - however if it still doesn't pay to be intensive then these groups will do more harm than good because in their eyes there is only 1 way

reilig

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is the guy who sells the 9 month old weinling weighing 300kg with no creep feeding - but the calf is off a good milky cow, and a good quality stock bull or 5 star ai bull.

Compare him to the farmer who is selling a 15 month old bullock, 300kg, ate a bit of ration to put some condition on him, off a poor milking, bad cow and a cheap 1/2 bred bull.

If they both achieve the same price, who has the biggest profit?

What I was trying to say is that farmers can learn through these discussion groups.

The groups focus on increasing profit by reducing costs. All of the measures for the payment focus on reducing costs - Reseeding for better grass, herd health plan to reduce sickness and ultimately vet bills, rotational grazing, budgeting, estimating etc etc.

These are all small investments which can result in better prices, lower costs and ultimately higher profits.

In our discussion group, for example, age of animals for sale is a major focus for increasing profit. The 22 farmers involved are a mix of autumn and spring calvers and everyone's goal is to get weinlings to a specific weight by a certain date as cheaply as possible and to move them on. Cattle cost money every day. It is cheaper to keep them on grass than to house them. With this thinking, if you can get weinlings to a certain weight on a cheap diet of grass, the younger the animal is when you sell him, the more profit you have.

Nobody mentioned a high input system. The whole idea of the discussion groups are to examine what works in your area. For our group, this has been a constant focus on low inputs, high weights and lower number of days on the farm. Our group also focuses on using better cows and better sires. It costs the same to keep a good cow as a bad cow, but the difference in price of their calf can be €200.

Tipp Man wrote: »

from my experience of dealing with cattle it is usually the dairy cattle that are the worst reared i.e weight for age etc but thats a different story.

Reilig I agree to a point with some of what you are saying - but some of the criteria that you suggest differentiate a good beef farmer from a bad 1 are questionable i would say.

Age of animals at sale for instance indicates nothing in my opinion (within reason obviously) - it could lead to higher turnover but it could also lead to higher costs - nuts fertiliser etc. Same with animal sales prices - it isn't always the fella that is selling the highest price stock that is making the most money.

The key for me is profit which is equally driven by sales and costs, and this is true for any farm enterprise. It's easy look at the fella with a big slatted unit and newly reseeded ground and think he is a great farmer, truth be told a fella outwintering cattle on a bit of rock with only average quality grass could be doing as well if not better.

Been at the cattle business for 30 odd years now and certainly in the 2000's it didn't pay to have a high input system IMO - the prices just weren't good enough and costs increased rapidly. Maybe going forward if the beef price stays fairly strong it will once again pay to be in an intensive system - If it pays to be intensive then these discussion groups will help people - however if it still doesn't pay to be intensive then these groups will do more harm than good because in their eyes there is only 1 way

Pharaoh1

Already in a Teagasc discussion group and I would like to join the new scheme as I am doing most of the stuff required. My Teagasc advisor rang me to tell me to make sure to apply.
But according to the rules I am not allowed.
Non breeding farmers must "finish" a certain number of cattle to be allowed in. The Journal was specific on this yesterday.
My weanling to store operation does not qualify apparently.

I don't know if I will be allowed to continue to attend as the existing (unpaid) discussion group effectively becomes the new (paid) discussion group and I am not a member. I will keep attending if I can.

I was down to host one of the discussion group meetings this year but if I cannot be a member then that meeting would not count as one of the required five so that has been scrapped.

I might make an application anyway to see how it goes.

blue5000

reilig wrote: »

I

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will never go hungry"

'Teach a man to fish and he will destroy a whole ecosystem'

Sorry Reilig, couldn't resist that one, havin a bad day here, between coco and fookin dept.

blue5000

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

Already in a Teagasc discussion group and I would like to join the new scheme as I am doing most of the stuff required. My Teagasc advisor rang me to tell me to make sure to apply.
But according to the rules I am not allowed.
Non breeding farmers must "finish" a certain number of cattle to be allowed in. The Journal was specific on this yesterday.
My weanling to store operation does not qualify apparently.

I don't know if I will be allowed to continue to attend as the existing (unpaid) discussion group effectively becomes the new (paid) discussion group and I am not a member. I will keep attending if I can.

I was down to host one of the discussion group meetings this year but if I cannot be a member then that meeting would not count as one of the required five so that has been scrapped.

I might make an application anyway to see how it goes.

Pharoh I'll sell you a couple of nice in calf AA x in calf heifers, in calf to aubrac, calving from paddys day on;)

Pharaoh1

blue5000 wrote: »

Pharoh I'll sell you a couple of nice in calf AA x in calf heifers, in calf to aubrac, calving from paddys day on;)

Thanks for the offer but I think I'll stay away from the breeding for the moment - I have enough problems.

jfh

haven't seen this on the journal yet. but as a part timer. i'd be interested.
how does one go about joining, do you have to have a herd number as the
old man has this and has no interest in it. might be able to use his number?

agcons

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmingsectors/beef/beeftechnologyadoptionprogramme/
Its all here, including current list of facilitators. Unlike what happened with the dairy groups I would expect quite a few of the private advisors to get involved in setting up these groups.
Discussion type groups have been proven in all walks of life to improve performance regardless of what yardstick you measure it by and it will be the same here. It is a certainty that in 5 years time the farmers who participate in this scheme will be more profitable and have better run operations than those that dont. These groups would be good value even if there was no grant but it is very difficult to get that message across. Most farmers are either happy to plod along as they are (and thats fair enough) or take too short sighted a view of any investment in their education.

Muckit

This new scheme is a good idea. Like when REPS waas brought in, it's money for some stuff you should be doing/or aiming to be doing anyway.

49801

when is the SCWS endings?

island of tighe

49801 wrote: »

when is the SCWS endings?

hopefully it is not ending.there is talk in ifa circles of having 100 per cow payment post cap reform 2014 to encourage suckler farmers to increase production

PMU

jfh wrote: »

haven't seen this on the journal yet. but as a part timer. i'd be interested.
how does one go about joining, do you have to have a herd number as the
old man has this and has no interest in it. might be able to use his number?

yes, you are allowed a sub.

rancher

island of tighe wrote: »

hopefully it is not ending.there is talk in ifa circles of having 100 per cow payment post cap reform 2014 to encourage suckler farmers to increase production

SCWS was from 2008 to 2012, so this is last year. Also it looks like the present SFP system will not end in 2013, we'll get another few years, GREAT STUFF

yupyupyup

Reilig your spot on the difference between the good and the bad beef farmers is massive. i think the reason fr this is that most farmers arent business men, they're farmers!! anyhow this new scheme sounds like a great idea but already i can see the farmers whinging about the fact its not worthwhile money wise thus totally missing the point of the scheme, to increase profit. ive als said there shud be a scheme to reseed land, about 90% + of the country needs to be reseeded. altho its quite expensive approx 200/acre, wrote off over 10yrs its only 20 quid a yr/acre, the response from fert alone would easily surpass that.

krazyfarmer

Was talking to teagasc about this.
It is 5 meetings a year this year 6 next year. During the day Mon-Fri. Dont know that i can commit to that while working full time. Are there many private planners doing groups that might be in the evening or weekend?

jfh

im in the same boat as yourself and asked that question. bascially told that its aimed at full time farmers. guy was actually trying to persuade me that it wouldnt be worth doing. he said , Youll have to take annual leave etc. was left wondering if these so called fascillators are 100% behind this at all.

jfh

krazyfarmer wrote: »

Was talking to teagasc about this.
It is 5 meetings a year this year 6 next year. During the day Mon-Fri. Dont know that i can commit to that while working full time. Are there many private planners doing groups that might be in the evening or weekend?

sorry cant answer your question. interested in finding that out myself

49801

unless there is a night time group we'll be out too

krazyfarmer

Dont like to be negative. But is this just a way of keeping Teagasc staff busy. 5000 (farmers) * €350 = €1750000 into Teagasc. Anybody already paying into Teagasc gets no discount. Seems wrong to me. As somebody else said might have been better up the payment on suckler cows.

yessam

krazyfarmer wrote: »

Dont like to be negative. But is this just a way of keeping Teagasc staff busy. 5000 (farmers) * €350 = €1750000 into Teagasc. Anybody already paying into Teagasc gets no discount. Seems wrong to me. As somebody else said might have been better up the payment on suckler cows.

There is a big spin off this for Teagasc, Heard plus (ICBF)and Dept Inspectors

Teagasc get additional fees
Everyone has to join Heard Plus €60
More inspections for dept

I hope the farmer can increase his income accordingly

adne

jfh wrote: »

im in the same boat as yourself and asked that question. bascially told that its aimed at full time farmers. guy was actually trying to persuade me that it wouldnt be worth doing. he said , Youll have to take annual leave etc. was left wondering if these so called fascillators are 100% behind this at all.

In same boat got on to a private operator and all his discussions will be in the eve.
Its the final push for me to move away from teagasc

jfh

adne wrote: »

In same boat got on to a private operator and all his discussions will be in the eve.
Its the final push for me to move away from teagasc

this guy in teagasc actually told me there's was no interest in it, that if someone wanted to join that they might join existing beef discussion groups that are already set up, becuase of the low numbers, but that these existing groups might refuse any member they wanted.
he did a good job of putting me of anyway!

jfh

adne wrote: »

In same boat got on to a private operator and all his discussions will be in the eve.
Its the final push for me to move away from teagasc

excuse the ignorance but how does one go about find private operators, your still going to have to pay teagasc the €350?

tanko

There is a list of them on the dept of agriculture website, www.agriculture.gov.ie

locky76

I'm after signing up and the times i got for the this year are as follows:
The ******* Suckler Group is open to new members and their schedule of meetings for 2012 is as follows
` 6th February 8.00 pm
5th March 2.30 pm
2nd April 2.30 pm
4th May 7.00 pm
01 June 2.30 pm
02 July 7.00 pm
03 Aug 2.30 pm
03 September 7.00 pm
08 Oct 2.30 pm
05 Nov 2.30 pm
03 Dec 8.00 pm
So the whole thing looks very doable to me and should lead to me having a better chance of increased profit etc.

krazyfarmer wrote: »

Was talking to teagasc about this.
It is 5 meetings a year this year 6 next year. During the day Mon-Fri. Dont know that i can commit to that while working full time. Are there many private planners doing groups that might be in the evening or weekend?

tanko

I have been quoted 250 euro inc vat per year by a private consultant.Im in the suckler welfare scheme and icbf (60 euro/year) and do my own AI. Will this plan work?

Year 1 Use 5 star AI bulls
Do a profit monitor

Year 2 Use 5 star AI bulls
Register calves on-line

Year 3 Use 5 star AI bulls
Do a herd health plan

TUBBY

Most of the facilitators listed on the Dept website are actually only Dairy lads that are flat out and have no interest in doing beef.

I think it will be hard enough to find private lads with evening meetings. I rang three locally and two of them are even doing the beef group.

Farmer Pudsey

jfh wrote: »

excuse the ignorance but how does one go about find private operators, your still going to have to pay teagasc the €350?

I am joining however there is no differencs between private consultants 340 euro(the consultant I use for reps etc not doing one) and Teagasc 350 also Teagasc will do is it 3 farm visits, my Area Aid and are at the end of a phone even if the private consultant was 200 euro teagasc look as good value.

I am hopeing that the 1000 euro will cover costs and that I might learn a couple of thing that will increse my profit margin also you will see other people sheds and there may be ways to adopt you own to get more benift out of them or what way you might extend or build a new shed.

yessam

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

jfh wrote: »

excuse the ignorance but how does one go about find private operators, your still going to have to pay teagasc the €350?

I am joining however there is no differencs between private consultants 340 euro(the consultant I use for reps etc not doing one) and Teagasc 350 also Teagasc will do is it 3 farm visits, my Area Aid and are at the end of a phone even if the private consultant was 200 euro teagasc look as good value.

I am hopeing that the 1000 euro will cover costs and that I might learn a couple of thing that will increse my profit margin also you will see other people sheds and there may be ways to adopt you own to get more benift out of them or what way you might extend or build a new shed.

this is the way teagasc asked me to consider the discussion group. i am tempted to go for it.

bluenun83

bob charles wrote: »

Wont be joining, I disagree about beef farmers being so behind dairy farmers. If this is the case it no bad thing as some of the 'new age' thinking adopted by dairy farmers is insane. I have seen some setups bordering on cruelty.

Are those lads doing the thing in the Journal making a 1000 net per ha yet from suckling? Last time I saw it they were failing to include an land rent figure or opportunity cost for owned land

I have to agree with reilig.

check the profit monitor reports year on year mate, it is quite sobering. If you think that beef farmers are up on par or even close to dairy, then you are delusional.

Dairy farmers did not have a SFM for as long as we have. They cut it plain and simple, low cost system to suit a seasonal grass supply curve for 300 days in milk.

is this not leading with a carrot rather than a stick, an effort to bring lads up to speed with grass breedingand the rest? If you're joining this with a sole goal to make a few bob while not extracting the full potential out of your own farm, imo you should forget about farming altogether. we have to move away from dependance on grants and everything else to maintain ourselves sustainable for the long term. other wise we'll all be left on the side while the rest of the farming world passes us out.

Jack C

See where 7100 have signed up. Hmmm.... €5m allocated.
5,000,000/7,100= €704.
Wont hardly cover the expenses involved.

reilig

Jack C wrote: »

See where 7100 have signed up. Hmmm.... €5m allocated.
5,000,000/7,100= €704.
Wont hardly cover the expenses involved.

7000 have signed up, but none have been approved yet. A significant number will be weeded out when it is examined if they meet the criteria or not.

Pharaoh1

I'm one of those who will probably be weeded out as I don't meet the requirements.
Advisor recommended that I throw in the application anyway as he said in our area there was very little interest.
Haven't heard anything yet.

redzerologhlen

reilig wrote: »

7000 have signed up, but none have been approved yet. A significant number will be weeded out when it is examined if they meet the criteria or not.

What is the criteria required for it reilig?

reilig

redzerologhlen wrote: »

What is the criteria required for it reilig?

Suckler farmers must be participants in the Suckler Cow Welfare Scheme (SCWS) while beef finishers must have slaughtered at least 15 animals during 2011 and have applied to become a member of the Beef Quality Assurance Scheme (BQAS) scheme before March 7.

jfh

applied for this but have heard nothing as of yet.
anyone here get any info back?