Throwing down the Gauntlet

rochey84

Hi Everyone,

Last night while on 98FM I was confronted with a man who cliamed that he would love to meet me as he thinks that he could cure me of being gay. Now I'm the first to call bull**** on things like that but I had an idea.

Why don't I throw down the gauntlet to this man but make it interesting, he has to give him permission for the whole thing to be recorded and aired on 98FM.

I can do this by contacting 98FM I'm pretty sure they'd be keen to de-bunk/reinforce the myth that homosexuality is a choice, however I'd be interested in see what you think?

To anyone struggling to come to terms with their sexuality I strongly recommend not attempting something like this, to me this man is going to try to use Catholic Guilt (which I don't have because I don't identify as catholic) or family guilt (which again I don't have because I know my family accept me for who I am) I believe that his idea of a cure is no more than just a very very hard shove back into the closet and does not cure at all but someone in a vulnerable position could be influenced into staying in the closet and I want to use my security in my sexuality to prove that this man will just fear monger!

Zaph

I've deleted your other thread in AH. Please do not start the same thread in multiple forums in future.

rochey84

No problem my hope was to get a broad spectrum of opinions! Won't happen again

floggg

Firstly, I'd say this would work better as a tv documentary than radio.

Secondly and more importantly I would imagine that if you called his bluff, he would likely just retort that you didn't want to change and hence it didn't work, rather than the thing failing.

Don't get me wrong, I'd agree it's entirely B.S. but I'd hazard a guess that his cure is based on some combination of pray the gay away and gay is a choice. In either case, he can just blame you for not wanting it enough (which is I understand the fall back position for these guys).

im...LOST

Do it. It'd be interesting to say the least. It would work better as a TV show alright.

Aurongroove

if he accuses you of wanting to fail, then learn how to cry on cue and ring him 40 times a day, email him, message him

"YOU SAID YOU'D CURE ME!"
"I WANT TO LOVE WOMEN!"
"I WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN!!"

spend an entire year begging him to keep trying, ask him "why hasn't it worked yet? I'm still gay!, your not doing it right! take it seriously, I really need help"

Animord

How are you going to prove whether whatever his 'cure' is has worked or not? Surely you are just going to be a liar who can't bear to tell the truth if you don't get 'cured' and if the 'cure' does work ... I can't even imagine what that will entail...:o

Or am I missing something?

rochey84

floggg wrote: »

Firstly, I'd say this would work better as a tv documentary than radio.

Secondly and more importantly I would imagine that if you called his bluff, he would likely just retort that you didn't want to change and hence it didn't work, rather than the thing failing.

Don't get me wrong, I'd agree it's entirely B.S. but I'd hazard a guess that his cure is based on some combination of pray the gay away and gay is a choice. In either case, he can just blame you for not wanting it enough (which is I understand the fall back position for these guys).

This is why it would be interesting, last night he said he'd love to meet me cause he could cure me and I said he couldn't cause there is nothing to cure, to which he responded that he thinks there is, so therefore he already knows that I'm opposed to very idea that you can cure being gay.

floggg

From what I can tell the whole point of these cures isn't to make you straight but to deny homosexual feelings.

So to the limited extent that they can "work" it's necessary that you buy into the denial thing in the first place.

Aurongroove

yeah 'curing' homosexuality is two things:

suppressing sexual attraction to the same sex

magically creating a sexual attraction to the opposite sex.


I'm guessing with enough mind ****ery you could try to suppress someone's sexual attraction, but that would just make them celibate.

But you can't get blood from a turnip; you can't make someone become attracted to something they're not.

rochey84

Aurongroove wrote: »

yeah 'curing' homosexuality is two things:

suppressing sexual attraction to the same sex

magically creating a sexual attraction to the opposite sex.


I'm guessing with enough mind ****ery you could try to suppress someone's sexual attraction, but that would just make them celibate.

But you can't get blood from a turnip; you can't make someone become attracted to something they're not.

These are the very reasons I want to do it on air, I'm a self confessed gay man proud of who I am and what I am and I think that if I or anyone was to go out and do this live for the world to hear (I know 98FM is a dublin station but their website gives them global reach) it would prove that the people doing the curing are doing nothing more than ****!

floggg

I know what your saying but I think in this case it would be like somebody who doesn't want to quit smoking debunking a Paul McKenna book.

You wouldn't be proving anything because you never really wanted thr promised outcome to happen.

Plenty of medical and psychological experts have shown through peer review research that these cures don't work though. They've shown that even where people want them to work they can never change the orientation - they just make them deny who they are.

James W

If you're certain that you won't be "converted" then I don't really see the point. Even the term "cure" annoys me as it suggests an illness.

All the guilt in the world won't actually change someone - it will cause them to repress the truth - but their sexual orientation and desires will remain the same. There are, judging by the number of married and closetted men covertly engaging in homosexual activities, a great number in this situation. I don't think repression of what is true can ever result in a positive outcome.

As a gay man, I did everything in my power to resist my gayness in the hope that it would go away. To say that I did not want to be gay would be an understatement but finally, in my mid-twenties, I had to start dealing with the fact. I'd prefer to be straight, being honest, but I know that nobody could ever make me so. Sexual orientation, in my view, is a hardwired part of one's genetic make up and nothing can alter it.

Regarding the Catholic guilt - it's highly overrated. In the New Testament it's interesting that Jesus doesn't ever refer to homosexuality which, at the time he lived, would have been a feature of the Greco-Roman Empire. Essentially, if one is to believe Catholic or Christian teaching, the belief is that the way we have been created is the way we were intended to be - we were known to Him long before we ever lived and so forth. God cannot create anything that is bad or, as the Catholic Church put it, intrinsically disordered. If this was not the case, then the Catholic Church wouldn't have a leg to stand on when it rails against terminating the life of a child who has some illness or disability which was identified before birth. They assert that all life is precious and created by God - including homosexuals! Where the argument gets fuzzy is in relation to how you articulate your life as a homosexual person, the teaching being that sexual intercourse should only take place within marriage. Whatever about this, personally, I don't believe that humankind was intended to be sexually promiscuous - if this was not the case, then sexually transmitted diseases wouldn't exist.

James W

floggg wrote: »

From what I can tell the whole point of these cures isn't to make you straight but to deny homosexual feelings.

So to the limited extent that they can "work" it's necessary that you buy into the denial thing in the first place.

Agree - you've got it in one! There are thousands in denial regarding their sexual orientation and struggling with it. It amazes me, even with the strides which have been made over the last two decades, the number of men who are deeply ashamed of being gay.

James W

rochey84 wrote: »

These are the very reasons I want to do it on air, I'm a self confessed gay man proud of who I am and what I am and I think that if I or anyone was to go out and do this live for the world to hear (I know 98FM is a dublin station but their website gives them global reach) it would prove that the people doing the curing are doing nothing more than ****!

I really get weary when I see or hear the terms 'proud' or 'pride' being used in relation to one's sexual orientation - get over it!! On one hand gay people want acceptance and inclusion while, on the other, they're proud, loud and seem to get some sort of kick from differentiating themselves. To me, this is a contradiction I do not understand.

I don't think that doing this, particularly on 98FM, would prove anything - it would provide a bit of entertainment for the listeners of such programmes, but that's it! Like any other study or research, it needs to be planned, controlled and conducted by professionals, if it's to have any credibility or value. In this case it would be one quack against another - no offence!

rochey84

The point I'd be trying to prove, rightly or wrongly is that these people who claim to "cure" homosexuality and yes I'm using the term cure because this particular gentleman does see being gay as a disease or illness he used the term "cure" are just forcing repression that they can temporarilly "cure" someone in a vulnerable position because they are who is being brought in front of them, however I am confident gay man proud in who I am and what I am and my sexuality. When I use the term proud I do not mean that I'm shouting about my sexuality or the inequalities from the rooftops I mean proud as in I don't hide my relationship behind closed doors, I don't shirk away from talk about relationships or partners. There is a different to being proud and being outspoken to the point of "I'm here I'm queer" sort of thing. Yes I'm proud and why the hell shouldn't I be I was repressed for long enough!

floggg

It's not so much about being proud of being gay but about refusing to be ashamed. Society tries its best to make you feel ashamed about being gay. The concept of gay pride is to say clearly that you have nothing to be ashamed of at all.

So I'm not necessarily proud (or ashamed) of being gay. But I am proud of the person I am (in a humble way of course).

I used to wish I was straight. But now I realise I am who I am. Surely if I was going to wish for anything it would be to live in a world where my being gay wasn't an issue for anybody.

rochey84

James W wrote: »

I really get weary when I see or hear the terms 'proud' or 'pride' being used in relation to one's sexual orientation - get over it!! On one hand gay people want acceptance and inclusion while, on the other, they're proud, loud and seem to get some sort of kick from differentiating themselves. To me, this is a contradiction I do not understand.

I don't think that doing this, particularly on 98FM, would prove anything - it would provide a bit of entertainment for the listeners of such programmes, but that's it! Like any other study or research, it needs to be planned, controlled and conducted by professionals, if it's to have any credibility or value. In this case it would be one quack against another - no offence!

As I said in a previous post when I say proud I don't mean loud there is a difference, the reason I would do this is because there aren't that many people out there claiming to "cure" hetrosexuality, the unfortunate fact is that some of us do have to make a bit of noise from time to time for change to be effected, this is not something I particularly want to do but I feel it would be benefical or maybe not, but this is the risk we have to take the chance!

Do you think that we would have the rights we have if we had all just sat back and waited for them???? No we wouldn't!!!

With regard to the professionals that could carry out this research, please by all means forward on the details of any such professional and I will bow to their knowledge and experience, however personally since there are no experts on conversion therapy I think this may be the best way to shut this particular conversion "therapist"

James W

Well, you would be doing this for your own personal satisfaction - as I've said already, it will prove nothing - for a start the sample is too small!

If you're as comfortable as you claim with your sexuality I fail to see why this would bother you.

There is a large body of evidence to suggest that homosexuality cannot be "cured". If you just look at it logically, to cure homosexuality implies that heterosexuality is the solution or the fix. There is an abundance of credible psychological evidence to support the thesis that for the majority sexuality is a complex dynamic rather than heterosexuality = normal, homosexuality = abnormal - which is way too simplistic.

James W

rochey84 wrote: »

Do you think that we would have the rights we have if we had all just sat back and waited for them???? No we wouldn't!!!

Who are "we"?

rochey84

James W wrote: »

Well, you would be doing this for your own personal satisfaction - as I've said already, it will prove nothing - for a start the sample is too small!

If you're as comfortable as you claim with your sexuality I fail to see why this would bother you.

There is a large body of evidence to suggest that homosexuality cannot be "cured". If you just look at it logically, to cure homosexuality implies that heterosexuality is the solution or the fix. There is an abundance of credible psychological evidence to support the thesis that for the majority sexuality is a complex dynamic rather than heterosexuality = normal, homosexuality = abnormal - which is way too simplistic.

I accept all that but consider the target audience the majority of the public that on a whole don't really care too much about homosexuality so shoving a **** load of psychological evidence in their face won't get ya anywhere I believe something sharp short and to the point to show them!

rochey84

The LGBT community is the "we" I speak of. However I would not be doing this for the whole community but for myself! I am however intersted in the opinions of the community

James W

rochey84 wrote: »

The LGBT community is the "we" I speak of. However I would not be doing this for the whole community but for myself! I am however intersted in the opinions of the community

Can you please tell me where this LGBT community is? Where can I find it?

There is a colossal amount of evidence regarding sexuality and sexual orientation - APA, Kinsey and many others - all support the idea that sexuality is not fixed.

James W

rochey84 wrote: »

I accept all that but consider the target audience the majority of the public that on a whole don't really care too much about homosexuality so shoving a **** load of psychological evidence in their face won't get ya anywhere I believe something sharp short and to the point to show them!

Well, perhaps for the target audience of 98FM, but it would have no credibility, eitherway.

Shakti

Whats in it for you?
also whats this guys name location/association? presumably he wont mind you telling us seeing he was on the radio broadcasting it, also have you got an email we can google?

MJRS

I understand what people are saying about this not actually proving all 'pray out the gay' types to be full of ****, but it will prove this one idiots claim to be incorrect. So it's worth doing in my eyes! If he does try to claim 'he never wanted to be cured' etc, the fact is he made the claim he could make the op straight, not try to make him straight.

peter barrins

This post has been deleted.

floggg

James W wrote: »

rochey84 wrote: »

Do you think that we would have the rights we have if we had all just sat back and waited for them???? No we wouldn't!!!

Who are "we"?

I think at times gay people can be far too apologetic about looking for equal rights and tolerance at times.

Looking back now, we wouldn't dare criticise black civil rights movements in the 60's and 70's for talking about black pride, even though that was something the really did try and encourage. It was quite right that they did so too.

Similarly we don't criticise them for standing up and saying loudly that they wouldn't accept discrimination - we applaud them for it.

Gay people can be far too apologetic at times and too concerned about upsetting "the straights".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an in your face angry self righteous gay but I certainly don't think you should ever apologise for demanding equality and respect.

Conor30

James W wrote: »

Can you please tell me where this LGBT community is? Where can I find it?

There is a colossal amount of evidence regarding sexuality and sexual orientation - APA, Kinsey and many others - all support the idea that sexuality is not fixed.

Your exact point being?

Conor30

James W wrote: »

I really get weary when I see or hear the terms 'proud' or 'pride' being used in relation to one's sexual orientation - get over it!!

Awww - poor you! As Flogg stated, it's about accepting oneself as one is and not being ashamed. That's all. :rolleyes:

James W

Conor30 wrote: »

Awww - poor you! As Flogg stated, it's about accepting oneself as one is and not being ashamed. That's all. :rolleyes:

An entirely different thing.

Conor30

James W wrote: »

An entirely different thing.

Not for a lot of people. A lot of people don't bother going around and being utterly precise in the language they use everyday. Woe betide them! This argument reminds me of the other old chestnut - masculine vs straight-acting!
At the end of the day, it's merely a (rather pointless) semantic argument, and little more.

James W

Conor30 wrote: »

Your exact point being?

If sexuality moves along a spectrum, as most research would seem to suggest, there is no abnormality and nothing to be 'cured' or 'fixed'.

Shakti

Besides all of that what your intentions are and what the media will make them out to be is something you will have little control over, they will use you to attract listeners who are attracted to controversy, the dj's make a name for themselves, this person gains publicity, the advertisers are happy, the share holders get a dividend and you and other Gay people get what exactly?.

But by all means go on 98fm but instead ask them what they are doing to support Marriage and Gender equality/LGBT civil rights in general and how they think this contributes to these efforts? and how many more worthy voices are out there that they are ignoring in favour of this nonsense..

jus sayin

James W

Conor30 wrote: »

Not for a lot of people. A lot of people don't bother going around and being utterly precise in the language they use everyday. Woe betide them! This argument reminds me of the other old chestnut - masculine vs straight-acting!
At the end of the day, it's merely a (rather pointless) semantic argument, and little more.

Well gay life seems to be hung up on semantics and definitions - I agree that terms like straight acting are ludicrous - it's one 'type' (another great word) of gay person discriminating against another.

Acceptance of oneself comes from the inside out - not the outside in. You could have someone marching at the front of the gay pride parade and quite unaccepting of aspect of their sexuality. Those who doth protest too much are often the least comfortable with what it is they protest about.

James W

Shakti wrote: »

Besides all of that what your intentions are and what the media will make them out to be is something you will have little control over, they will use you to attract listeners who are attracted to controversy, the dj's make a name for themselves, this person gains publicity, the advertisers are happy, the share holders get a dividend and you and other Gay people get what exactly?.

But by all means go on 98fm but instead ask them what they are doing to support Marriage and Gender equality/LGBT civil rights in general and how they think this contributes to these efforts? and how many more worthy voices are out there that they are ignoring in favour of this nonsense..

jus sayin

Oh god, oh god, oh god! Oh god!:D

Conor30

James W wrote: »

Well gay life seems to be hung up on semantics and definitions

Really? According to whom?


My only point was that, for many people, rightly or wrongly, pride = not being ashamed. I don't think there's much need in getting one's knickers in a knot over it. You'll just give yourself wrinkles and we can't have that in the gay world!

James W

Conor30 wrote: »

Really? According to whom?


My only point was that, for many people, rightly or wrongly, pride = not being ashamed. I don't think there's much need in getting one's knickers in a knot over it. You'll just give yourself wrinkles and we can't have that in the gay world!

The gay movement harps on about integration and inclusion, etc, yet it's full of tags, definitions, types and so on, which seek to define and separate. Not being ashamed is not being ashamed - the opposite of pride is humility!

Don't worry about my wrinkles - I'm a sublime specimen! LOL!

Conor30

Whatever - I'm bowing out of this thread - it's boring me.

Shakti

James W wrote: »

The gay movement harps on about integration and inclusion, etc, yet it's full of tags, definitions, types and so on, which seek to define and separate. Not being ashamed is not being ashamed - the opposite of pride is humility!

Don't worry about my wrinkles - I'm a sublime specimen! LOL!

The opposite of pride is lack of or low self esteem ercktually,
ergo. one can take pride in ones humility,

James W

Shakti wrote: »

The opposite of pride is lack of or low self esteem ercktually,
ergo. one can take pride in ones humility,

Of course it is (not)! http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_word_is_the_opposite_of_the_word_pride

Taking pride in one's humility would negate the humility!

Shakti

James W wrote: »

Of course it is (not)! http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_word_is_the_opposite_of_the_word_pride

Taking pride in one's humility would negate the humility!

If you want to buy into the seven deadly sins/seven heavenly virtues dogma perhaps it can mean that for you, but many theologians and thinkers have recognised that humility and pride have more in common with each other and sit quite uncomfortably when presented as these polar opposites.

Indeed one must recognise both pride and humility can be negative or positive as well as manifesting alongside themselves comfortably internally in oneself.
If you were to have no pride in your humility how would you ever know you were humble enough and not simply just being abused or taken advantage of which as many psychologists will verify is a symptom of 'low self esteem'.

something to think about perhaps if nothing else........

James W

Shakti wrote: »

If you want to buy into the seven deadly sins/seven heavenly virtues dogma perhaps it can mean that for you, but many theologians and thinkers have recognised that humility and pride have more in common with each other and sit quite uncomfortably when presented as these polar opposites.

Indeed one must recognise both pride and humility can be negative or positive as well as manifesting alongside themselves comfortably internally in oneself.
If you were to have no pride in your humility how would you ever know you were humble enough and not simply just being abused or taken advantage of which as many psychologists will verify is a symptom of 'low self esteem'.

something to think about perhaps if nothing else........

Humility has nothing to do with low self esteem. Real humility takes strength and confidence and self awareness - quite the opposite to low self esteem. It's about being confident and self aware, as distinct from being proud or full of pride or hubris.

I think what you are getting into is ego as distinct from pride.

Everything should be viewed in a holistic sense as distinct from separately or opposites, which leads to dualism and a denial or repression of what we perceive to be bad.

floggg

James W wrote: »

The gay movement harps on about integration and inclusion, etc, yet it's full of tags, definitions, types and so on, which seek to define and separate. Not being ashamed is not being ashamed - the opposite of pride is humility!

Don't worry about my wrinkles - I'm a sublime specimen! LOL!

Whenever I hear this issue re-hashed I think of this song by Imelda May - humble and proud.

Having pride in oneself is nothing to be in any way ashamed of. I am proud of the person I am - not of any one particular aspect of it but of me as a whole. I think it would be rather sad for somebody not to have some pride in how they conduct themselves.

That doesn't mean you can't be humble at the same time. There is a difference between pride and arrogance.

Shakti

James W wrote: »

Humility has nothing to do with low self esteem. Real humility takes strength and confidence and self awareness - quite the opposite to low self esteem. It's about being confident and self aware, as distinct from being proud or full of pride or hubris.

........the Taoist thinking/application of 'humility' would be markedly different from Buddhist and Christian thinking but the definition/idea/meme that 'pride and humility are opposites' is certainly of Judeo-Christian in origin as presented here I just happen to disagree and actually think they need each other to 'exist', I think putting them on two opposing lists in the Christian Canon was a mistake and an obvious at that(perhaps inspired by pride:eek:). Also I would have thought confidence and over-confidence to be an aspect of both pride and humility easily observed in their extremities.

I think what you are getting into is ego as distinct from pride.

I dont think humility or pride manage to give the 'ego' the slip I'm afraid.

Everything should be viewed in a holistic sense as distinct from separately or opposites, which leads to dualism and a denial or repression of what we perceive to be bad.

sure, I think we may have stretched this thread sorry again mods

MOSSAD

Don't waste your time with this guy. You owe no explanations to anyone. In my experience, any ostensibly straight male who seems to have a preoccupation with the homosexuality of his fellow males is just yearning to come out of the closet. life is too short-expend your energy on something worthwhile.

baby and crumble

Alright, folks, take discussions about pride etc to another thread and focus on the OP please.

gaa131

OP, sexuality is a personal matter and part of who a person is. For some however it becomes the part, the primary focus which overshadows everything else about them. This is an unbalanced and unhealthy way to live and often mistaken with acceptance or being out and proud - as they say!

I see no reason why you would feel any need or desire to prove or justify your sexuality to any person, on the radio or anywhere else. If you're confident and content and in full acceptance of your sexuality that's what matters. Those who claim sexuality can be changed are best ignored tbh.

Shakti

I think I may have got to the "CORE issues" on another thread.