Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

mobile w

Does anyone have any ideas on the effectiveness of of this as a means to lose a few lbs without losing muscle? claims to be the biz from the little research ive done.

El_Dangeroso

Good article on it here:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/researchapproved_carb_cycling

EileenG

Highly effective, and if you dig a bit, you'll find that many professional bodybuilders do some version of this when cutting for competitions.

If you go to the keto form on bodybuilding.com, you'll find that most of them use it.

Gummy Panda

CKD works. A friend used it to get to weight class for a martial arts competition. It will be tough though as you'll long for carb up day all week.

His protocol was something along the lines of Sunday - Friday low carb. On Friday evening complete last workout, then commence carb up. He would usually get a pizza. Continue to eat high carbs on Saturday but not like pig. Sunday you were back on low carb.

mobile w

Gummy Panda wrote: »

CKD works. A friend used it to get to weight class for a martial arts competition. It will be tough though as you'll long for carb up day all week.

His protocol was something along the lines of Sunday - Friday low carb. On Friday evening complete last workout, then commence carb up. He would usually get a pizza. Continue to eat high carbs on Saturday but not like pig. Sunday you were back on low carb.

thanks for the info folks. that looks very similar to what i was looking into alright. how tough is it? people seem to say how difficult it is but im struggling to see how it is hugely different to paleo (not fully read up on this to be honest), during the low carb cycle i.e. low/no starch carbs with high fat/protein?

Gummy Panda

mobile w wrote: »

thanks for the info folks. that looks very similar to what i was looking into alright. how tough is it? people seem to say how difficult it is but im struggling to see how it is hugely different to paleo (not fully read up on this to be honest), during the low carb cycle i.e. low/no starch carbs with high fat/protein?

He found it a bit hard at first cause he was still doing the same intensity of weights as he was previously. As soon as he got the right level of volume sorted it was just mental side that was hard e.g. basically seeing people eat high carb food he liked and knowing he couldn't have it.

danlen

Is the only advatage of CKD over a standard ketogenic diet the fact that it allows someone continue to train intensely?

Would it be fair to say a standard KD is fine for a sedentary person but CKD is more beneficial (necessary even?) for an athlete?

EileenG

danlen wrote: »

Is the only advatage of CKD over a standard ketogenic diet the fact that it allows someone continue to train intensely?

Would it be fair to say a standard KD is fine for a sedentary person but CKD is more beneficial (necessary even?) for an athlete?

Absolutely.

In fact, it's a good idea to tailor the carb-up to the intensity of the workouts during the week. If you are doing three normal workouts a week, you don't need a big carb-up. If you are burning thousands of exercise calories, you can eat more carbs.

El_Dangeroso

It also has to do with insulin triggering a surge in growth hormone. Free book about it here:

http://allanabolics.org/media/content/files/af8f63cd08d4dd11e23fdb67437626e0.pdf

danlen

So really this could be used as either a fat loss or mass gaining diet (depending on calories) then?

If it where used to build mass, how would the rate of muscle growth compare with a regular high-calorie mass gaining diet?

boomtown84

If calories are the same i'm gonna go out on a limb and say pretty similar. generic mass gaining diet is wayyyyyyy cheaper too!

danlen

boomtown84 wrote: »

If calories are the same i'm gonna go out on a limb and say pretty similar. generic mass gaining diet is wayyyyyyy cheaper too!

Would the idea of being in a ketogenic state for 5 days of the week not mean, in theory, there would be less fat gain during a bulking phase on CKD compared to a regular high-calorie diet?

Or is that just a misconception?

SteelyDanJalapeno

3D. How to Enter Ketosis Quickly, Easily, and Reliably

Here is a full-proof method to enter ketosis:

Day 1:

- Do not eat anything after 6 p.m.

Day 2:

- Wake up and perform HIIT or intense conditioning/weight training on an empty stomach

- Begin a strict ketogenic diet with 0-2% of calories attributed to carbohydrates

Day 3:

- Wake up and perform HIIT or intense conditioning/weight training on an empty stomach

- Begin a normal ketogenic diet with 5% of calories attributed to carbohydrates.

If not already, you will soon be in ketosis in a short matter of time.


great guide here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132598293

El_Dangeroso

BTW bit of coconut oil GREATLY relieves the pain of entering ketosis.

mobile w

TiltedBrain wrote: »

3D. How to Enter Ketosis Quickly, Easily, and Reliably

Here is a full-proof method to enter ketosis:

Day 1:

- Do not eat anything after 6 p.m.

Day 2:

- Wake up and perform HIIT or intense conditioning/weight training on an empty stomach

- Begin a strict ketogenic diet with 0-2% of calories attributed to carbohydrates

Day 3:

- Wake up and perform HIIT or intense conditioning/weight training on an empty stomach

- Begin a normal ketogenic diet with 5% of calories attributed to carbohydrates.

If not already, you will soon be in ketosis in a short matter of time.


great guide here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132598293

great read there thanks.

a quick question for those with experience on the diet, from reading the various articles posted here people seem to suggest that the process of ketosis is pretty severe (particularly the first time you do it) i.e. headaches, fatigue etc. just wondering how people found this? im in the middle of a masters and between studies and work i couldnt really afford to be walking around like zombie because of my diet!

is it really as bad as im imagining or are the articles a touch OTT?

Gummy Panda

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

BTW bit of coconut oil GREATLY relieves the pain of entering ketosis.

what do you mean?

mobile w wrote: »

great read there thanks.

a quick question for those with experience on the diet, from reading the various articles posted here people seem to suggest that the process of ketosis is pretty severe (particularly the first time you do it) i.e. headaches, fatigue etc. just wondering how people found this? im in the middle of a masters and between studies and work i couldnt really afford to be walking around like zombie because of my diet!

is it really as bad as im imagining or are the articles a touch OTT?

You will be tired but the severity of the headaches can depended on how bad your diet was beforehand. The lad in work who did it doesn't eat much sugar. In fact I've never seen him eat a chocolate bar or crisps or any junk so he wasn't that bad headache wise.

mobile w

cool, i dont eat a huge amount of sugar so shouldnt be a massive problem (touch wood). am i right to say that you need to be extremely strict for this to work? the reason i ask is for breakfast i like making myself a bit of a smoothie (strawberry, raspberry, blueberry, a drop of oj, milk and a couple scoops of whey)and id be afraid that would be a no go because of the fruit involved.

El_Dangeroso

Gummy Panda wrote: »

what do you mean?

Coconut oil contains MCT = almost ready-made ketones, during the switch you have no decent source of carbs or ketones leading to the bleuughh feeling. The MCT fills that 'gap'. You can also buy MCT oil.

Gummy Panda

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Gummy Panda wrote: »

what do you mean?

Coconut oil contains MCT = almost ready-made ketones, during the switch you have no decent source of carbs or ketones leading to the bleuughh feeling. The MCT fills that 'gap'. You can also buy MCT oil.

Ah now I get you. What do you think of MCT powder?

MyProtein | MCT powder

El_Dangeroso

I've actually never heard of it, how can they powder a fat? The extreme amount of processing might be bad I haven't looked into it.

Coconut oil works just fine too, you just have to eat a lot of it, but not too much or you'll get a bit of a bad stomach.

Gummy Panda

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I've actually never heard of it, how can they powder a fat? The extreme amount of processing might be bad I haven't looked into it.

Coconut oil works just fine too, you just have to eat a lot of it, but not too much or you'll get a bit of a bad stomach.

Yeah I can get a dodgey stomach from coconut oil very easily. I'll ask MP on UK Muscle how they turn MCT into a powder

SteelyDanJalapeno

coconut milk is much more palatable

EileenG

That's worst case. Some people, particularly if they've been eating a very high carb diet for years, do feel crap when they start. It's a good idea to start on Friday, so that you get the worst effects over the weekend, and by Monday, you should be back to normal.

Some people don't notice any ill-effects at all, or even feel better as they go into ketosis.

And the first time is always the worst. After you've done it a couple of times, you won't even feel it.

Actually, if you've ever run a marathon or any endurance event, you've already done it. That hitting the wall/ cycling bonk is your body running out of glycogen and switching to ketosis to burn fat instead. It's nasty when it happens, but once you're through it, you can keep going.

Gummy Panda

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I've actually never heard of it, how can they powder a fat? The extreme amount of processing might be bad I haven't looked into it.

Coconut oil works just fine too, you just have to eat a lot of it, but not too much or you'll get a bit of a bad stomach.

They never got back to me but I bought some MCT powder from their site. Should have it on Wednesday so I'll test it then. I think I'll just throw 10 grams into 30 grams of whey and have it pre-workout with maybe 200mg of caffeine.

mobile w

so i started this a couple of days now and am finding it suprisingly ok thus far (touch wood), not head aches etc.

was just wondering if someone with some experience with it might be able to tell me whether im on the right track diet wise. for instance im a bit shady on whether im allowed fruit etc.?

breakfast
smoothie consisting of:
all kinds of berries
milk
scoop whey
orance juice
teaspoon peanut butter

lunch
chicken salad:
chicken breastx2
lots of mixed leaves (spinach etc.)
balsamic/olive oil dressing
parmesan cheese

workout:
xtend bcaa during workout
pwo:
whey scoop x2
creatine 5g

dinner:
large seasoned steak
lots of greens (beans, brocolli etc.)
cheddar cheese grated on veg.

is this enough? i have bad experiences int he past with muscle/strength losses while dieting so thought this might be better.

danlen

mobile w wrote: »

so i started this a couple of days now and am finding it suprisingly ok thus far (touch wood), not head aches etc.

was just wondering if someone with some experience with it might be able to tell me whether im on the right track diet wise. for instance im a bit shady on whether im allowed fruit etc.?

breakfast
smoothie consisting of:
all kinds of berries
milk
scoop whey
orance juice
teaspoon peanut butter

lunch
chicken salad:
chicken breastx2
lots of mixed leaves (spinach etc.)
balsamic/olive oil dressing
parmesan cheese

workout:
xtend bcaa during workout
pwo:
whey scoop x2
creatine 5g

dinner:
large seasoned steak
lots of greens (beans, brocolli etc.)
cheddar cheese grated on veg.

is this enough? i have bad experiences int he past with muscle/strength losses while dieting so thought this might be better.

I personally would tend to avoid the milk unless you are only taking a small amount. If your using quarter of litre upwards, I think your just using up your carb allowance on something not really needed. Water does the job fine. If your concerned about the taste, add some coconut oil to it. Win-win situation!

Avoid the orange juice completely. Way too high in carbs and in truth its not all that nutritious either.

With regard to fruit, I would suggest only using berries as they are the lowest in carbs & are high in antioxidants. Watch the portion size all the same.

Everything else looks good. Just make sure you are using generous amounts of oil on your salad and dinner. Don't be afraid to substitute the chicken breast for fattier meats.

All of the above advise should be tailored to your own needs, especially take into account exercise intensity and frequency.

El_Dangeroso

Just count carbs, ketogenic is <50g a day generally, more if very active day-to-day.

mobile w

danlen wrote: »

I personally would tend to avoid the milk unless you are only taking a small amount. If your using quarter of litre upwards, I think your just using up your carb allowance on something not really needed. Water does the job fine. If your concerned about the taste, add some coconut oil to it. Win-win situation!

Avoid the orange juice completely. Way too high in carbs and in truth its not all that nutritious either.

With regard to fruit, I would suggest only using berries as they are the lowest in carbs & are high in antioxidants. Watch the portion size all the same.

Everything else looks good. Just make sure you are using generous amounts of oil on your salad and dinner. Don't be afraid to substitute the chicken breast for fattier meats.

All of the above advise should be tailored to your own needs, especially take into account exercise intensity and frequency.

i jumped on fitday there to try and estimate macros for this and im taking in well over 100g of fat per day! is this okay? i know people say not to worry about fat intake but it feels counterintuitive and got me rattled when i saw the numebers!

El_Dangeroso

mobile w wrote: »

i jumped on fitday there to try and estimate macros for this and im taking in well over 100g of fat per day! is this okay? i know people say not to worry about fat intake but it feels counterintuitive and got me rattled when i saw the numebers!

On keto it's fine, it's not long term anyway, just keep it to coconut fat, dairy fat and fat from animals that graze, like lambs and cows. Chicken fat, seed oils and pork fat should be minimised on this if possible.

mobile w

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

On keto it's fine, it's not long term anyway, just keep it to coconut fat, dairy fat and fat from animals that graze, like lambs and cows. Chicken fat, seed oils and pork fat should be minimised on this if possible.

sounds good, it just looks strange after being told how bad fats are for you all your life!

this link ( http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=132598293 ), which was given earlier int he thread, suggests olive oil is good for keto. is that ok? im thinking that is where the majority of my fats are coming from

danlen

mobile w wrote: »

sounds good, it just looks strange after being told how bad fats are for you all your life!

this link ( http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=132598293 ), which was given earlier int he thread, suggests olive oil is good for keto. is that ok? im thinking that is where the majority of my fats are coming from

Olive oil
walnut oil
coconut oil
fatty cuts of meat
nuts & nut butters
salmon/mackeral/sardines/anchovies

All the above are great on a keto diet. Just watch the portion sizes if your trying to lose weight.

Don't be afraid of the seemingly excessive fat intake. High fat is what your aiming for. Many people attempt keto, get worried by the amount of fat, and end up reducing fat intake and increasing protein, mistakingly thinking that it will be fine as carbs are still low. However, high protein intake can knock you out of keto as the excess protein can get converted through gluconeogenesis.

Don't overthink things. Meat, veg, and quality fats with most meals will keep you on track.

NewApproach

What are the positives/negatives of a CKD over standard KD? I've been on a standard KD for about 7 weeks and have dropped 40lbs (from 300lbs starting) including slipping out of ketosis once or twice. I do next to no exercise although I hope to increase it soon. Is there any benefits to me of increasing carb intake periodically or will that just increase the cravings alot?

SteelyDanJalapeno

40lbs is fantastic, I wouldn't change anything if its working and your still in good health,

EileenG

NewApproach wrote: »

What are the positives/negatives of a CKD over standard KD? I've been on a standard KD for about 7 weeks and have dropped 40lbs (from 300lbs starting) including slipping out of ketosis once or twice. I do next to no exercise although I hope to increase it soon. Is there any benefits to me of increasing carb intake periodically or will that just increase the cravings alot?

The advantage is that CKD is better for someone who is exercising intensely, usually lifting heavy weights. If you are not exercising that hard, you don't need to do CKD, and can stick to SKD.