Is MMA becoming a graveyard for failed boxers?

tryingmybestt

Is MMA becoming a graveyard for failed boxers of past it boxers

We've seen quite a few boxers convert to MMA

Are these boxers ones who don't have what it takes for boxing so they want to try something different?

Opinions

runboyrun

Yes.

cowzerp

runboyrun wrote: »

Yes.

Definitely No, barely any boxers do MMA and the likes of James Toney was looking for a big pay day he could not get in boxing as people in boxing know he is finished.

unknown13

Which boxers have recently gone over to MMA.

runboyrun

When I watch MMA sometimes I often see the fighters being introduced as former boxers.

They're not well known boxers because if they were well known they'd probably be successful boxers and therefore wouldn't need to convert to MMA.

cowzerp

runboyrun wrote: »

When I watch MMA sometimes I often see the fighters being introduced as former boxers.

They're not well known boxers because if they were well known they'd probably be successful boxers and therefore wouldn't need to convert to MMA.

They say their boxers, meaning they train boxing mainly over say muay Thai-most would not have even done 1 boxing match.

I run an MMA club and a boxing club and it's just silly and has no basis at all.

MMAIRELANDFAN

tryingmybestt wrote: »

We've seen quite a few boxers convert to MMA

Who? apart from Toney who got paid silly money for taking a no contest who else was there.

Typical nonsense from people who don't know what their talking about

tryingmybestt

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Who? apart from Toney who got paid silly money for taking a no contest who else was there.

Typical nonsense from people who don't know what their talking about

Some of the more well know names would be

James Toney
Ray Mercer
Nick Diaz
Butterbean etc.

Also most of the ppl are less established boxers

I've noticed lads coming into the club and not doing well and then leaving and saying they're starting MMA instead

gene_tunney

That's 4.

Toney had one fight, Mercer 2. Butterbean is a freak show.

Who is Nick Diaz?

MMAIRELANDFAN

tryingmybestt wrote: »

Nick Diaz

I've noticed lads coming into the club and not doing well and then leaving and saying they're starting MMA instead

Diaz was never a boxer, he trains Boxing as part of his MMA
Mercer fought Silva in MMA but it was meant to be a Boxing match in a cage

Butterbean has also done K1 Sumo, and toughman competitions

Toney just jumped in for a pay day and did not even train for it

More MMA people have done Boxing than the other way round so maybe start a thread on that

cowzerp

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Diaz was never a boxer, he trains Boxing as part of his MMA
Mercer fought Silva in MMA but it was meant to be a Boxing match in a cage

Butterbean has also done K1 Sumo, and toughman competitions

Toney just jumped in for a pay day and did not even train for it

More MMA people have done Boxing than the other way round so maybe start a thread on that

well said
Mercer actually fought Kimbo slice in an exhibition match also and believed they would box but got guillotined, thats a choke for the uneducated!!

Lot's of MMA fighters have done a few pro Boxing matches to help there MMA but they where MMA fighters 1st, right now in the UFC i don't think there is any ex pro boxers contracted and the only Boxer would be Vitor Belfort who boxed amateur and also was doing BJJ so it's not like he just swapped from Boxing to MMA.

tryingmybestt

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Diaz was never a boxer, he trains Boxing as part of his MMA
Mercer fought Silva in MMA but it was meant to be a Boxing match in a cage

Butterbean has also done K1 Sumo, and toughman competitions

Toney just jumped in for a pay day and did not even train for it

More MMA people have done Boxing than the other way round so maybe start a thread on that

diaz did use to box and he had to decide between boxing and MMA

all the above are examples so whats your point?

i'm asking a question

yogi beer

tryingmybestt wrote: »

Some of the more well know names would be

James Toney
Ray Mercer
Nick Diaz
Butterbean etc.

Also most of the ppl are less established boxers

I've noticed lads coming into the club and not doing well and then leaving and saying they're starting MMA instead

Ehhh, Nick Diaz has only ever fought one professional Boxing match. and won. how is it that he failed in boxing exactly?!

cowzerp

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Diaz was never a boxer, he trains Boxing as part of his MMA

spot on

nick diaz trained sambo after getting bullied in school

in 2005 after years doing MMA he done 1 pro boxing match

his only boxing training is the boxing he does in his MMA training and he is actually a ground fighter.

Leo Dowling

tryingmybestt wrote: »

diaz did use to box and he had to decide between boxing and MMA

all the above are examples so whats your point?

i'm asking a question

Your question relies on the statement that we've seen "quite a few boxers convert to MMA" which isn't true as the other posters have proved. So it's not a valid question.

MrStuffins

I've a question:

Is football becoming a graveyard for failed rugby players?

My cousin used to play Rugby, now he plays football.

And who is Nick Diaz?

cowzerp

straw man argument comes to mind.

colly10

gene_tunney wrote: »

Who is Nick Diaz?

Cheers, you just made me spit a mouthfull of shepards pie at the screen

tryingmybestt

hahaha it's good not to take a forum too seriously

babymanval

If one were to be a "failure" at boxing, then there's even less chance of succeeding at MMA. MMA is much, much more multi-dimensional, and even being a great boxer doesn't guarantee you any success in MMA if you're not a well-rounded fighter.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a boxing purist, and have been an avid fan for 20 odd years, but over the last few I've also become aware that it's basically a sport that makes up but one element of a more modern one these days.

To answer your question; I'm not too familiar with that many top level fighters who made the transition? Can you name a few for the purpose of demonstrating your point? I know the guy at the very top of the tree in MMA, Anderson Silva, had a couple of pro boxing fights before the transition (a Record of 1-1 according to Wiki), but that can hardly be considered packing in a boxing career to do MMA.

cowzerp

babymanval wrote: »

I know the guy at the very top of the tree in MMA, Anderson Silva, had a couple of pro boxing fights before the transition (a Record of 1-1 according to Wiki), but that can hardly be considered packing in a boxing career to do MMA.

Again this is another MMA to Boxing and not the other way round.

Silva made his Pro MMA debut in 1997, Pro Boxing in 1998 after never competing as an amateur-again just another example of an MMA fighter trying Boxing to help his MMA and maybe pay a few bills too.

babymanval

cowzerp wrote: »

Again this is another MMA to Boxing and not the other way round.

Silva made his Pro MMA debut in 1997, Pro Boxing in 1998 after never competing as an amateur-again just another example of an MMA fighter trying Boxing to help his MMA and maybe pay a few bills too.

I stand corrected Paul, I always thought he started out as a boxer and thought better of it.

cowzerp

babymanval wrote: »

I stand corrected Paul, I always thought he started out as a boxer and thought better of it.

He was actually a Thai Boxer but his style in MMA is more Boxing orientated, he's not bad and uses the basics in a good way for MMA such as the jab and footwork that would not be the norm in MMA.

babymanval

cowzerp wrote: »

He was actually a Thai Boxer but his style in MMA is more Boxing orientated, he's not bad and uses the basics in a good way for MMA such as the jab and footwork that would not be the norm in MMA.

Sickening hand speed and accuracy almost obliged him to give it a shot I'd say. It's like watching the matrix at times when he's in full flight.

Brendan Schaub was a golden gloves boxer. He played pro football (american) and then started MMA. I'd agree that it's not common for boxers to make the shift into MMA.

I'd say MMA would have more feed from collegiate wrestling rather than anything else. Then calling it a graveyard is a bit of an insult to MMA practitioners and coaches tbh.

MrStuffins

I have no idea why people in this thread don't seem to realise that Boxing and MMA are NOT mutually exclusive!

Just because an Mixed Martial Artist boxed and was subsecuently successful in MMA, does not make him a failed boxer who moved to MMA. Boxing is one of the arts utilised in MMA, it makes sense that a Boxer might move into MMA and vice versa or, which is common, participate in both sports.

I could just as easily put it the other way:

"Is Boxing becoming a graveyard for failed Mixed Martial Artists?"

But I wouldn't. Because that would be silly!

walshb

Boxing is simply a far more specialised discipline. MMA is a mix of everything. Always stating the obvious.

I would say that a boxer moving to MMA (having never fought MMA) stands a better chance to do well than an MMA fighter (having never boxed) moving to boxing.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Boxing is simply a far more specialised discipline. MMA is a mix of everything.

I would say that a boxer moving to MMA (having never fought MMA) stands a better chance to do well than an MMA fighter (having never boxed) moving to boxing.

Well that's your opinion. That's the statement that boxing fans always make, and vice versa with MMA fans.

In my opinion, an straight MMA guy has a MUCH better chance because he already possesses the basic skills it takes to be a boxer. They might be basic depending on the fighter, but he still possesses the skills. You say "Never having boxed" but this is impossible. An MMA guy works on his stand up regularly in MMA training. A boxer never works on Wrestling or BJJ in training.

A good boxer beats a good MMA guy in a boxing match. A good MMA guy beats a good boxer in an MMA bout.

However, a straight boxer has just ONE of the skills required to be an MMA fighter and it's really no good to him in modern MMA (see Toney v Couture).

walshb

I did mean to imply that the boxer and MMA fighter both get training before competing. I just think that the boxer will pick up the other disciplines better than an MMA man trying to pick up the boxing.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

I did mean to imply that the boxer and MMA fighter both get training before competing. I just think that the boxer will pick up the other disciplines better than an MMA man trying to pick up the boxing.

Why do you think this exactly?

walshb

MrStuffins wrote: »

Why do you think this exactly?

Because most MMA men are not experts in all disciplines. It's a mish mash. Boxing is a purist art. So, a boxer can become useful in other areas, and be skilled highly in boxing, which is more than just fists. Feet, movement, balance etc.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Because most MMA men are not experts in all disciplines. It's a mish mash. Boxing is a purist art. So, a boxer can become useful in other areas, and be skilled highly in boxing, which is more than just fists. Feet, movement, balance etc.

There is an increasing number of "Pure Mixed Martial Artists" appearing these days as MMA has become a sport of it's own. But most MMA guys are in fact experts in a particular field who added the other tools in order to compete at the top level.

For example, you've got guys like Demian Maia who was the creme de la creme in the world of his particular sport (BJJ) and then added the other tools to his game in order to compete in MMA.

You've got Olympic wrestlers like Couture (he was an alternate), Dan Henderson etc. Judo champions like Sexiyama, K1 Champs like Overeem etc.

MMA is littered with champions from all of the different disciplines. With varied levels of success.


Let me tell you, you can take the best of the best, you can take PB Floyd, train him for as long as you want and stick him in against a mid-level MMA guy with decent grappling and Floyd would have a miserable night (again, see Toney v Couture). I see where you're coming from with the pure sport angle. But I just think you're really underestimating grappling as an art.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

walshb wrote: »

Because most MMA men are not experts in all disciplines. It's a mish mash. Boxing is a purist art. So, a boxer can become useful in other areas, and be skilled highly in boxing, which is more than just fists. Feet, movement, balance etc.

That's a terrible generalisation, tbh. It'd depend entirely on the fighter and their willingness to learn a new discipline.

MMA fighters have the basics in boxing, so they could improve on their boxing much easier than a boxer with no BBJ/ground game could learn BJJ.

cowzerp

MrStuffins wrote: »

(again, see Toney v Couture). I see where you're coming from with the pure sport angle.

not going to debate the outdated topic of Mma v boxing but Toney was a shell of what he was and is a poor boxer an all now. That fight was hand picked to be a name who had no hope at all.

walshb

baz2009 wrote: »

That's a terrible generalisation, tbh. It'd depend entirely on the fighter and their willingness to learn a new discipline.

MMA fighters have the basics in boxing, so they could improve on their boxing much easier than a boxer with no BBJ/ground game could learn BJJ.

Well, am I wrong? Are most MMA men experts in many disciplines?

Anyway, can't prove it either way.

I do see your point by the way, maybe I am wrong, in general.

walshb

MrStuffins wrote: »

Let me tell you, you can take the best of the best, you can take PB Floyd, train him for as long as you want and stick him in against a mid-level MMA guy with decent grappling and Floyd would have a miserable night (again, see Toney v Couture). I see where you're coming from with the pure sport angle. But I just think you're really underestimating grappling as an art.

Why are you assuming that Floyd won't excel ("train him for as long as you want") or come good in grappling or wrestling etc? Not expert, just good, useful and competent?

walshb

BTW, Paul beat me to it as regards Toney. He's not just a dead fighter, he's a dead boxer, and has been getting worse and worse.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Why are you assuming that Floyd won't excel ("train him for as long as you want") or come good in grappling or wrestling etc? Not expert, just good, useful and competent?

I never said he couldn't become competent.

What I am saying is, you are underestimating grappling. If you take a 34 year old man, Mayweather, and teach him Wrestling for a good while, he's still not gonna have a chance v the likes of an MMA guy who has been wrestling since he was a child in school (grappling-wise).

Probably the same way than if you took a Brock Lesnar type, a life-long wrestler, and taught him boxing for a good while, he wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of a PBF!

dlofnep

Not many boxers in MMA. Nick Diaz is NOT a boxer. He has some boxing training, but is by no means a boxer. A few boxers that transitioned into MMA that I can think of off the top of my head are Marcus Davis (Record: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=19438&cat=boxer), KJ Noons (Record: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=259486&cat=boxer) Fabio Moldonado (Record: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=171565&cat=boxer), and Allesio Sakara (Record: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?cat=boxer&human_id=297539).

I don't know why this whole boxing/MMA argument goes on. It's alright to be a fan of both. I've been watching MMA since the late 90's, and boxing since I was a kid. I've never found a conflict enjoying both of them.

And anyone who doesn't know who Nick Diaz is, cannot call themselves a fight fan. He is simply the most entertaining fighter on the planet, in any combat sport - bar none.

walshb

MrStuffins wrote: »

I never said he couldn't become competent.

What I am saying is, you are underestimating grappling. If you take a 34 year old man, Mayweather, and teach him Wrestling for a good while, he's still not gonna have a chance v the likes of an MMA guy who has been wrestling since he was a child in school (grappling-wise).

Probably the same way than if you took a Brock Lesnar type, a life-long wrestler, and taught him boxing for a good while, he wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of a PBF!

Yes, I see your point. I guess you think that in an MMA fight the grappling aspect will be a more competent skill to have than the boxing aspect?

I don't know. I would rather have great boxing skill and good grappling as compared to great grappling skill and good boxing, for an MMA fight.

dlofnep

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I see your point. I guess you think that in an MMA fight the grappling aspect will be a more competent skill to have than the boxing aspect?

I don't know. I would rather have great boxing skill and good grappling as compared to great grappling skill and good boxing, for an MMA fight.

Wrestling is 100 times more important than boxing in MMA. A wrestler dictates where the fight goes. You can't box if you can't defend the shot. It's that simple.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I see your point. I guess you think that in an MMA fight the grappling aspect will be a more competent skill to have than the boxing aspect?

I don't know. I would rather have great boxing skill and good grappling as compared to great grappling skill and good boxing, for an MMA fight.

In an MMA bout, wrestling will dictate the fight a lot of the time. If you have a really good wrestler v a really good striker, provided the game plans are right the grappler will not give the striker much of an opportunity to use his skills (or he could be a fool about it, see Lesnar v Overeem or JDS v Cain).

The wrestler can decide where the fight takes place, whereas the boxer has not much choice. the ideal situation for your "great boxing skill and good grappling" example would be a style like that of Chuck Liddell, a guy who used his good wrestling to ensure wrestlers couldn't take him down, in order to keep the fight on the feet and use his superior striking. But that's a guy who wrestled all his life!

But even an excellent wrestler with NO stand up skill would beat a great boxer with little wrestling skill a lot of the time, if only via lay and pray judges decision if nothing else!

dlofnep

You get a good idea of the level of skill involved in high-level wrestling/judo in MMA here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOV3qVIEFng

It's not something you can pick up quickly. You don't just dive at someone's legs and hope for the best.

gene_tunney

colly10 wrote: »

Cheers, you just made me spit a mouthfull of shepards pie at the screen

Genuinely don't know who he is.

slapbangwallop

WHO THE FOOK ALLOWED THE BAR STEWARDISED CRIZZAP ON THIS BOARD!!

MMA is for failed boxers - chalk it down.

Dont believe the hype!

#OldSchool #UnwillingToListenToReason #Dinosaur

cowzerp

Thread is finished now, Mma is not boxing graveyard and that theory has been blown away.