Prize Money - Yey or Nay

ROK ON

A question in another thread about a prize fund has prompted me to open this as a discussion.

There is a tradition of prize money for amateur races. What do people think of this?

I think that prize money has no place in any amateur sport regardless of tradition. One is either an amateur or not.

I am interested in what peoples opinions are on this and why. For example if a good well run race with good facilities was run, would it be any less attractive if there was a prize of only a trophy and no cash etc?

I was involved in running an event last year and the amount that we paid out to winners I had a difficulty with tbh.

morana

ROK ON wrote: »

A question in another thread about a prize fund has prompted me to open this as a discussion.

There is a tradition of prize money for amateur races. What do people think of this?

I think that prize money has no place in any amateur sport regardless of tradition. One is either an amateur or not.

I am interested in what peoples opinions are on this and why. For example if a good well run race with good facilities was run, would it be any less attractive if there was a prize of only a trophy and no cash etc?

I was involved in running an event last year and the amount that we paid out to winners I had a difficulty with tbh.

I must say I like the cash prizes. I actually dont want trophys and its better for bits for the bike. What does irk me is you would see a race for the different categorys and the A4/A3 would have the biggest entry but the prize money for the A1/A2 would be a lot more for them but that is the race organisers call. I always felt that the race that contributes the most money should have the best prize....

There are no amateurs in cycling anymore hence the reason Tom Boonen can turn up and ride the Des Hanlon.

the IVCA dont give cash prizes and it doesnt diminish the satisfaction of doing well in their races although I dont think I will have that pleasure this year.

Beasty

The IVCA gave me some cash prizes;) (admitedly in the form of a cheque at the end of Season awards dinner)

Personally I'm not interested in the prize money at all (the cheque was a complete surprise). However I think it's a nice gesture, and if it helps some defray the costs of competing then I've got no problem with it

ROK ON

MoranA. I was unaware that there were no amateur rankings.

No problem with A+ category getting cash awards, bt I stand by what I said. I do not think that A2-A4 should receive monetary prizes. These are de facto amateur.
I am not so sure that compensating for the cost of participation holds up. That is a cost bourn by all competitors, and that is common across many sports (where it is not seen as acceptable that winners receive monetary compensation).

blorg

The prize money is in general so small relative to the cost of competing (and the general cost of cycling) that I don't really see the point myself. I certainly wouldn't be entering cycling races for the money. But that is the tradition.

My total career winnings amount to around €200, and they are only that high as I managed to fluke an overall win in an open race when the A4 group stayed away. Most of my placings have brought me €10 or €20; I think I got €30 for my overall club league placing after 20 races. That isn't going to defray much when you consider the cost of a race bike, maintenance, license fees and so on.

ROK ON

Thanks Blorg. I was hoping that someone who had actually won something would post.

That is the nub of my argument. For the winner the cash amount is small, so for the large part unnecessary. However across all categories and platlcings the cost for the organising club may not be small.

IIRC someone posted here last year that most clubs lose money when they host a race. It is costly in terms of both effort and finances to host a decent event. Why hamstring oneself by offering prizes that are by and large unnecessary?
Is an event less of an event in the absence of cash.

Btw. I am not suggesting that something like the Ras should adhere to these rules. Many competitors there are pro.

blorg

I was for a short period the treasurer of one of the larger cycling clubs in the country; we spent a not inconsiderable amount of money on race prizes. With prizes across four categories up to about tenth place, primes, KOH and so on it adds up pretty quickly, even if the amounts to each person are relatively small. In the thousands of Euro per race, IIRC. I don't know that there are many people for whom the money is a motivator to be honest; a well run race and the honour of winning appeal more to most I think.

morana

ROK ON wrote: »

Thanks Blorg. I was hoping that someone who had actually won something would post.

That is the nub of my argument. For the winner the cash amount is small, so for the large part unnecessary. However across all categories and platlcings the cost for the organising club may not be small.

IIRC someone posted here last year that most clubs lose money when they host a race. It is costly in terms of both effort and finances to host a decent event. Why hamstring oneself by offering prizes that are by and large unnecessary?
Is an event less of an event in the absence of cash.

Btw. I am not suggesting that something like the Ras should adhere to these rules. Many competitors there are pro.

I won a few races myself and appreciate the cash prizes but i doubt anybody does it for the money.

The uci did away with the amateur element of the sport many years ago but i accept all riders here are amateur per se. I would say the cost of trphys would be almost as much the prize money. I would prefer it to stay.

C3PO

There was a debate about this in the mountain bike community last year. It seemed that the riders who won regularly were keen to get cash prizes which helped defray their bike, maintenance and travel costs and who presumably had loads of trophies anyway! On the other hand the guys who only occasionally got podiums wanted to receive a trophy as a keepsake for their achievement!
Slightly off topic but I was surprised last year when I entered a few road races that entry fees were about half the cost of that for mountain bike races. For the mountain bike clubs, running races would be one of their main income streams - typically memberships being much cheaper than for road clubs!

Lumen

I won €20 or so in an open race a couple of years ago. It felt fantastic, even though I'd got the lowest result it was possible to get and still get a prize. 18th unplaced thirty-something, probably.

manwithaplan

I got €30 for 5th in an open race at the back end of last year. Oddly enough, the money made it feel like I had achieved something - I doubt if there would be any trophies for 5th.

However, I got a trophy and medal for winning our club championship last year and that means a lot more to me than any cash prize.

So, based on my limited experience, I propose no cash for the first three home but a few quid for 4th to 6th!

morana

manwithaplan wrote: »

So, based on my limited experience, I propose no cash for the first three home but a few quid for 4th to 6th!

it used to be like that in the national championships...on that point if I could get one of those shamrock jerseys I wouldnt want any money I can tell you!

LeoD

I think prize money for your regular weekly open races is daft. Who trains their a**e off all season to win a few hundred euro? As for going towards the cost of rider's equipment that doesn't make sense either. It's not necessary to race with carbon rims. If you can't afford DA, buy Ultegra. If you can't afford Ultegra, buy 105 etc. I've won a few quid from crits a couple of times but I thought it was completely unnecessary. I would prefer if organisers spent money on the race organisation - safety, support, changing/shower facilities, etc.

levitronix

I had a nice few brown envelopes this year and one trophy which i still have not collected 6 months later, cycling costs a lot of money and if you win something least it goes somewhere to cost of trying to compete. I would rather any amount of money than a prize i didnt not really need!

Slideshowbob

Cash prizes are common place in amateur racing worldwide

ROK ON

levitronix wrote: »

I had a nice few brown envelopes this year and one trophy which i still have not collected 6 months later, cycling costs a lot of money and if you win something least it goes somewhere to cost of trying to compete. I would rather any amount of money than a prize i didnt not really need!

That argument holds no water whatsoever IMHO. There are a great deal of sports, hobbies, pasttimes that cost a lot of money but that the prizes are non monetary for those that are at an amateur level (accepting that there is no actual amateur in cycling).

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Cash prizes are common place in amateur racing worldwide

I accept that SSB. Not trying to say otherwise, I just wanted to guage opinions tbh. I can see at the higher echelons of the sport where full time pros, neo pros, aspiring pros and semi pros mix why there would be cash prizes.
I personally have an issue with any sport at an amateur level (so for cycling lets say that is A2 downwards), having cash prizes. I do not think that pay and amateur sport are suitable bedfellows so to speak. It is an opinion that is all.
I have seen a good many amateur sports teams in other sports destryoed when money has been introduced into the equation.
While it has been commonplace for cycling to offer cash prizes at amateur level, I see no reason why this should be the case given the increasing cost of staging events.
Participation (and if fitness, skill, dedication and or luck) dictate success well then in my eyes that should be enough for any sportsperson.

I see no reason why the fee paid in A4, A3 A2 should subsidize those that are successful - everyone still had similar costs (bike, tyres, tubes kit, license). Barry Meehan of Worldwide Cycles had a brilliant blog post touching on a similar issue a few years back - the jist of which from the man on the top step of the podium, to the last man home - all are valid participants in a race. The winner means nothing if there are not losers. In an amateur sport I see no reason why the many losers should fund the hobby of the few winners.

Apologies for being long winded. I am one of lifes cynics, but my view of sport is very romantic (and unrealistic).

levitronix

ROK ON wrote: »

That argument holds no water whatsoever IMHO. There are a great deal of sports, hobbies, pasttimes that cost a lot of money but that the prizes are non monetary for those that are at an amateur level (accepting that there is no actual amateur in cycling).


maybe so but thats what i would perfer !!!!

boege

For winning to mean something it has got to be recognised. I always assumed the few bob was paid as trophys/medals were too dear as generally only winner got trophy.

As some have said attitude to money or medal depends on how often you are winning. I will cherish my 'novice over 40 county road race runners up' medal and no money could replace it.:)

Dont hear too many compliants about current setup.

victorcarrera

Nay! Then instead of paying E10 per race it could be reduced to E3.50 as in Belgium.

petethedrummer

I won an orange kryptonite lock once. I use it daily.

Caroline_ie

I also would like to mention there in a open race there isn't automatically ( quite rarely actually ) a prize for 1st lady in A4/A3 races. When you tell the commissaries at the end of the races yourself, they might mention you in irishcycling as 1st lady, but no prize.

morana wrote: »

There are no amateurs in cycling anymore hence the reason Tom Boonen can turn up and ride the Des Hanlon.

Yes Please!!!!

morana

Trophys are a pain in the arse to organise as well. Its and extra job for the race organiser. then if they have to be retrieved from the previous winner its more hassle.

Organisers have a lot on their plate with the event safety, marshals, lead cars etc.

el tel

I don't care about prize money, I do it for the podium girls.

Though wouldn't mind winning my weight in cheese or honey or something.

uberwolf

As an underage racer the prize money or useful parts/consumables were very welcome. My first ever MTB prize was a pair of marzocchi suspension forks. As a 16 year old riding rigid they were very welcome!

As a senior 20 quid in an envelope for a placing hardly covered the petrol money and as ungrateful as it sounds wasn't appreciated at all.

So nay to prizes for seniors.

dave2pvd

Cash for P/1/2, cat 3, M35, M45 here, typically.

No cash for 4s, 5s or juniors.

Women categories vary in their cash awards, but typically the P/1/2 race will have cash, the beginners 3/4 race won't.

I like the cash reward - helps pay for expenses.

Doesn't mean the sport is not amateur.

Beasty

dave2pvd wrote: »

Doesn't mean the sport is not amateur.

Damn - I was hoping to add "Professional Cyclist" to my CV:(

ROK ON

morana wrote: »

Trophys are a pain in the arse to organise as well. Its and extra job for the race organiser. then if they have to be retrieved from the previous winner its more hassle.

Organisers have a lot on their plate with the event safety, marshals, lead cars etc.

I dont necessarily want tropies. A victory lives in your head not on your mantlepiece.

A question for you in your official capacity as a CI officer.
Do you think that clubs should be encouraged to use races and other events to raise funds (to be put back into developing cycling), or do they exist to pay out sums of money to winners. It strikes me that sponsorhip could be getting harder to riase in austere times. If that were the case, then it maybe better that the fee's raised in running a race should be recycled into the race with any surplus being used in a clubs kitty.

If there are cyclists that feel aggrieved at that, maybe the should work a bit harder and try racing as a pro??

boege

morana wrote: »

Trophys are a pain in the arse to organise as well. Its and extra job for the race organiser. then if they have to be retrieved from the previous winner its more hassle.

Organisers have a lot on their plate with the event safety, marshals, lead cars etc.

So Morana your suggesting that a race organiser should not offer money and that tropheys are too much hastle. Slap on the back for the winner, eh?

Funniest prize I ever say offered:
munster HC.jpg

littlemsfickle

uberwolf wrote: »

As an underage racer the prize money or useful parts/consumables were very welcome. My first ever MTB prize was a pair of marzocchi suspension forks. As a 16 year old riding rigid they were very welcome!

As a senior 20 quid in an envelope for a placing hardly covered the petrol money and as ungrateful as it sounds wasn't appreciated at all.

So nay to prizes for seniors.

...so getting nothing would be more appreciated than 20euro??? Tbh I'd find it a bit of an anti-climax to train hard, finally win a race and then get nothing. I don't really know of any race - running, triathlon etc where there is no prize.

Beasty

boege wrote: »

Funniest prize I ever say offered:
munster HC.jpg

Looks like a quite balanced portfolio of prizes to me;)

chakattack

ROK ON wrote: »

maybe the should work a bit harder and try racing as a pro??

A bit unrealistic surely? When are you going pro yourself? :cool:

I don't see the harm in cash prizes...a nice touch for all your hard work even if it just covers petrol.

Otherwise the race fees should be much less.

What's the breakdown roughly of the cost of running a race?

Chips Lovell

I like racing for money (not that I get many envelopes). For me, it's part of the sport's culture.

ryan_sherlock

Just a very quick recap of what was said in the MTB meeting in relation to prizes.

For the lower categories, trophies etc... actually mean something - these guys should not have won many races and it means something. They win a few races, they move up to higher cats.

For the higher cats, prize money means something - by that point (unless it is a National title where the medal is cool), there would have been many trophies won... In MTB they tended to give a broken bike bit strayed silver nailed to a piece of wood...

Me personally - I'm not in cycling to make money (there are MUCH better ways to do that), BUT, the prize money does mean something - it covers the costs of some weekends - it is something for all riders to aspire to (win the elite race, and win money).

Other cats supporting the prizes for higher cats... it happens in all sports and I think it is worthwhile... When we buy our CI membership etc... we are supporting the guys who go to worlds etc... (I think) - is that worthwhile? This is the same except at the domestic level.

Yes, everyone who rides a race has a bike with wheels etc... but you can't say that everyone 'spends' the same on it... Time spent training, away from friends/family, no partying/crap food etc... There is a reason that certain people win races - if you don't like that - train smarter/harder or change your life so that you can.

Nice to see a discussion on this though, great to see lots of opinions.

ROK ON

@Ryan the idea of a piece of broken bike mounted as a trophy is pure class.

ryan_sherlock

ROK ON wrote: »

@Ryan the idea of a piece of broken bike mounted as a trophy is pure class.

Mel and I have received a few. I would post a photo but they have all, ehh, gotten misplaced...

Junior

I dunno, I kinda like trophies ..

morana

ROK ON wrote: »

I dont necessarily want tropies. A victory lives in your head not on your mantlepiece.

A question for you in your official capacity as a CI officer.
Do you think that clubs should be encouraged to use races and other events to raise funds (to be put back into developing cycling), or do they exist to pay out sums of money to winners. It strikes me that sponsorhip could be getting harder to riase in austere times. If that were the case, then it maybe better that the fee's raised in running a race should be recycled into the race with any surplus being used in a clubs kitty.

If there are cyclists that feel aggrieved at that, maybe the should work a bit harder and try racing as a pro??

What a club decides is up to themselves If they want to give boxs of bisquits, tyre, tubes etc thats up to them. If they want to donate all the prizes to the Office to be used for our Dev program I would be very happy with that. I always believed that the prizes should be funded by the entrys.

boege wrote: »

So Morana your suggesting that a race organiser should not offer money and that tropheys are too much hastle. Slap on the back for the winner, eh?

Funniest prize I ever say offered:
munster HC.jpg

See above. In the park races it was prizes based on entrys so it made it easy for the organisers. We are grateful to all the people who put on races. We would like to try raise the level and will be working on that.

Funniest prize I came across was a fishing rod for an Irish rider in a french race. Called unexpectedly to the podium as he finished last he was presented with a fishing rod. When he asked why he was getting a fishing rod for being last they told him he was so far behind that he should consider taking up fishing!!!!

Junior wrote: »

I dunno, I kinda like trophies ..

what race is that for?

ragazzo

chakattack wrote: »

A bit unrealistic surely? When are you going pro yourself? :cool:

I don't see the harm in cash prizes...a nice touch for all your hard work even if it just covers petrol.

Otherwise the race fees should be much less.

What's the breakdown roughly of the cost of running a race?

For a league event there should be overall prizes and points allocated per event.
For a 1 day race there should be cash prizes. No carpets or chairs or trophies (except for u/age events). Riders who never win a prize are usually those who argue against them. One would never race for the money but it is nice to receive it. It will keep one in tyres and tubes and might even cover diesel or race food.

The breakdown of the costs of running a race can be ascertained with the race organiser in your club.
They break down roughly as Commissaires €50 each with one comm.. per race, ie 3 separate races = 3comms = €150.
Race ambulance = €150-€200 per ambulance.
Letter of Indemnity for Race HQ = €60. (paid to CI)
Photofinish camera + expenses = €100.
Fuel expenses for Lead Car/ Commissaire drivers = €180 - €240.
Rental of Race HQ/ Tea, coffee and sandwiches = €400 - €500.
No payment to organiser or club marshals/volunteers as they give their time and effort/expertise freely so that cycle racing continues as a sport in this country.

For 3 separate races (A+/A1/A2), (A3), (A4), the expenses can run from at least €1090 upwards depending on numbers of lead cars needed etc.

109 riders signing on at €10 each will cover the expenses outlined above.
Prizes for first 6 in each race will come to an amount of between €1000 and €1500.
This brings the cost of a race schedule catering for all categories to at least €2090. An organiser would need 209 riders signing on just to break even.

The next time you want to moan to a race organiser about the lack of a blonde Swedish masseuse to look after you at the end of a race... think about the costs and the value you receive for your €10.

On the other hand, if there was no prize money....

dave2pvd

ragazzo wrote: »

They break down roughly as Commissaires €50 each with one comm.. per race, ie 3 separate races = 3comms = €150.
Race ambulance = €150-€200 per ambulance.
Letter of Indemnity for Race HQ = €60. (paid to CI)
Photofinish camera + expenses = €100.
Fuel expenses for Lead Car/ Commissaire drivers = €180 - €240.
Rental of Race HQ/ Tea, coffee and sandwiches = €400 - €500.
No payment to organiser or club marshals/volunteers as they give their time and effort/expertise freely so that cycle racing continues as a sport in this country.

For 3 separate races (A+/A1/A2), (A3), (A4), the expenses can run from at least €1090 upwards depending on numbers of lead cars needed etc.

109 riders signing on at €10 each will cover the expenses outlined above.
Prizes for first 6 in each race will come to an amount of between €1000 and €1500.
This brings the cost of a race schedule catering for all categories to at least €2090. An organiser would need 209 riders signing on just to break even.

No payment for cops?
What about porta-loos?
Barriers? Finish line truss?

ragazzo

dave2pvd wrote: »

No payment for cops?
What about porta-loos?
Barriers? Finish line truss?

Gardaí here Dave. They help out if they are available. If an organiser is rich enough then I am sure they could fund the Garda overtime bill, if they so wished.

Porta loos for who? The riders? There are toilet facilities at the Race HQ/ Sign on venue. Racing normally takes place on country roads and not town/city venues.

Barriers? To keep the crowds of spectators under control? This is cycle road racing in Ireland. There are no crowds and no spectators.
This is a country where cyclists are treated as poor people who cannot afford cars.

dave2pvd

ragazzo wrote: »

Gardaí here Dave. They help out if they are available. If an organiser is rich enough then I am sure they could fund the Garda overtime bill, if they so wished.

Porta loos for who? The riders? There are toilet facilities at the Race HQ/ Sign on venue. Racing normally takes place on country roads and not town/city venues.

Barriers? To keep the crowds of spectators under control? This is cycle road racing in Ireland. There are no crowds and no spectators.
This is a country where cyclists are treated as poor people who cannot afford cars.

So you don't have to hire Gardai. Amazing. That's one of our biggest expenses - cops that is, not Gardai. Surprised that the Gardai show up for free for you. Perhaps I shouldn't spread that thought around too much.

Yes, porta-loos for the riders. Now I understand what race HQ is. Some of our RRs will be at local schools - sounds like a similar set-up.

Hold on a second now - I thought this is the country where cyclists are treated as poor people who cannot afford cars! While you live in the land of Bike to Work, where everyone has a TT bike.

Slideshowbob

ragazzo wrote: »

chakattack wrote: »

A bit unrealistic surely? When are you going pro yourself? :cool:

I don't see the harm in cash prizes...a nice touch for all your hard work even if it just covers petrol.

Otherwise the race fees should be much less.

What's the breakdown roughly of the cost of running a race?

For a league event there should be overall prizes and points allocated per event.
For a 1 day race there should be cash prizes. No carpets or chairs or trophies (except for u/age events). Riders who never win a prize are usually those who argue against them. One would never race for the money but it is nice to receive it. It will keep one in tyres and tubes and might even cover diesel or race food.

The breakdown of the costs of running a race can be ascertained with the race organiser in your club.
They break down roughly as Commissaires €50 each with one comm.. per race, ie 3 separate races = 3comms = €150.
Race ambulance = €150-€200 per ambulance.
Letter of Indemnity for Race HQ = €60. (paid to CI)
Photofinish camera + expenses = €100.
Fuel expenses for Lead Car/ Commissaire drivers = €180 - €240.
Rental of Race HQ/ Tea, coffee and sandwiches = €400 - €500.
No payment to organiser or club marshals/volunteers as they give their time and effort/expertise freely so that cycle racing continues as a sport in this country.

For 3 separate races (A+/A1/A2), (A3), (A4), the expenses can run from at least €1090 upwards depending on numbers of lead cars needed etc.

109 riders signing on at €10 each will cover the expenses outlined above.
Prizes for first 6 in each race will come to an amount of between €1000 and €1500.
This brings the cost of a race schedule catering for all categories to at least €2090. An organiser would need 209 riders signing on just to break even.

The next time you want to moan to a race organiser about the lack of a blonde Swedish masseuse to look after you at the end of a race... think about the costs and the value you receive for your €10.

On the other hand, if there was no prize money....

Good template there but a race cannot be put on a one page spreadsheet.

A lead car driver etc may forgo their petrol, a local business may sponsor the sambos, a club may take a view on prizes and a local business may have fine offerings of prizes, so there may well be non monetary prizes available.

Junior

morana wrote: »

what race is that for?

No race, more a competition. It's the Heineken Cup.

RobFowl

Junior wrote: »

No race, more a competition. It's the Heineken Cup.

Is it for winning a pub crawl?

Morrisseeee

My opinion is that it should be like golf (don't ask Shane Lowry tho!!), no prizemoney for amateurs. That's why people go Pro.

dave2pvd

So why is it that amateurs should not win prize money?

Should we include the national lottery in this edict? Betting on the horses? What about when granny wins at bingo? First communion too?

ragazzo

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Good template there but a race cannot be put on a one page spreadsheet.

A lead car driver etc may forgo their petrol, a local business may sponsor the sambos, a club may take a view on prizes and a local business may have fine offerings of prizes, so there may well be non monetary prizes available.

Indeed. The previous costing was for a local unsponsored club running an open race without help from businesses, local or otherwise.

A lead car driver may refuse fuel expenses and often does but that is reflected in the minimum €180 to maximum €240 expense scale.

The posting illustrated the main costs associated with running a safe race. It is not an exhaustive list.
If the race is sponsored then costs borne by the organising club should be less.

Perhaps I should have referred to the cost of direction/safety signage, hi vis bibs, flashing warning beacons for lead/comm cars, race radios, paint for marking hazards on the course, etc

Just a rough guide was originally requested by chakattack.

morana

but why should we do stuff just because other sports are doing it?

I played football for a number of years and got paid...I wasnt a professional, I should have been but thats another story

I am all for keeping the envelope culture we have! Could we add a poll or is it too late?

ROK ON

morana wrote: »

I am all for keeping the envelope culture we have! Could we add a poll or is it too late?

In case anyone misunderstood me, I am not advocating changing the culture of cycling. I like doping and cheating:D

Thats a joke by the way for the thin skinned around here.

I was simply looking to find out where folks stood on the issue. My motive is a simple romantic one of what should constitute sport. In the naïve world that I inhabit, I do not like the idea of sport and money co-existing.

But this is a romantic and as I said naïve attitude. I am not in any case campaigning on this issue or demanding that cash prizes be scrapped. It is simply a bugbear of mine that non-pros receive cash when successful in sport. It happens in more and more sports - and in some sports has been a way of life thru history

Not sure how to add a poll. But from a read of the thread I would say there are less than a handful against payment as a prize for non-pros. about a handful that seem ambivalent, and about a handful if not more that are in favour of the status quo.

I guess the most I could ever do on a practical level would that if ever organised a race, that there would be no prize money. If people didnt attend because of that, then so what really.

blorg

I don't have any romantic view on the thing at all, just that (as in the example Ragazzo gave), the prizes actually take up a major portion of the running of the race and clubs are often quite strapped for cash. If there was unlimited money (say a sponsor was providing the prizes) then sure, prize away. This is money that could be put into any number of other things where it might arguably make more difference; youth development for example. Maybe keep the cash prizes to top three in each race with nothing at A4 level (prizes at A4 were done away with anyway, weren't they?) This might still help defray costs for those who are really serious like Ryan while not wasting money on the top ten or more in the A3 race... but I accept it is tradition. It's just an expensive one for the clubs.

petethedrummer

The top ten get prizes???