All guns blazing

Joseph

Hi all

Hoping to get some extra tips for tomorrow, basically I'm helping a friend whos laptop hinge broke in december. It's coming up on 2 years old. The hinge broke when opening the laptop like normal and was not dropped or damaged in any way.

My friend has visited the store (chain of stores) twice and they point blank refuse to do anything because it's physical damage (and some other nonsense excuses to fob him off). So I'm going to make a visit to them tomorrow and try my best to get it resolved. Any tips would be really helpful and I've a couple questions below:

1. Does it matter that it is my friends laptop? (he has given me permission)
   1.1 If this goes to small claims can I act on my friends behalf?
2. The laptop has a physical fault (weak hinge), this should still be covered under the sale of goods & supply of services act 1980?
3. Would it be helpful to call the head office of this company infront of the person I'm dealing with as a last resort?
4. I'm going to bring a copy of the act with me, good idea?
5. Does the EU directive 1999/44/EC help me? I did a bit of researching and was told that the Act we have is actually more powerful than that directive
6. Is it okay that I am going to bring it to a different store? (chain of stores)
7. Any tips or anything would be helpful

Nonoperational

It's going to be extremely difficult to prove the hinge broke because of a manufacturing fault as opposed to a few rough openings amongst the hundreds/thousands of openings and closings in 2 years.

Pacing Mule

Deaddude wrote: »

Hi all

Hoping to get some extra tips for tomorrow, basically I'm helping a friend whos laptop hinge broke in december. It's coming up on 2 years old. The hinge broke when opening the laptop like normal and was not dropped or damaged in any way.

My friend has visited the store (chain of stores) twice and they point blank refuse to do anything because it's physical damage (and some other nonsense excuses to fob him off). So I'm going to make a visit to them tomorrow and try my best to get it resolved. Any tips would be really helpful and I've a couple questions below:

1. Does it matter that it is my friends laptop? (he has given me permission)
   1.1 If this goes to small claims can I act on my friends behalf?
2. The laptop has a physical fault (weak hinge), this should still be covered under the sale of goods & supply of services act 1980?
3. Would it be helpful to call the head office of this company infront of the person I'm dealing with as a last resort?
4. I'm going to bring a copy of the act with me, good idea?
5. Does the EU directive 1999/44/EC help me? I did a bit of researching and was told that the Act we have is actually more powerful than that directive
6. Is it okay that I am going to bring it to a different store? (chain of stores)
7. Any tips or anything would be helpful

My reasonably educated opinions on this

1. Unless you're a solicitor representing the owner the retailler is under no obligation to deal with you.
1.1 Again unless you're appointed his official legal representative I don't believe you can. You can fill in the forms etc for him. It is designed to be a process that the consumer can follow themselves.
2. Who says it has a fault - do you have evidence of this ?If you do you have a better chance.
3. I'd be even less inclined to deal with you if I was the store manager.
4. Makes feck all difference.
5. The act does provide for better rights to the consumer.
6. Legally they could be seperate entities and it could make a difference.
7. Here's the rub of it - your friend has an issue which the retailler is adamant is user damage due to misuse / lack of care and 99 times out of 100 this would be the case. A hinge can crack from a fall or pressure being put on it and months later come apart. Unless you can show a history of similar issues occuring with other laptops in the range or have an independent report showing a weakness etc you have a very very thin case and I would personally believe a small claims court judgment would go against you / your friend. Incidentally if you do go get an independent report you can try and claim the costs of that back.

foggy_lad

Deaddude wrote: »

Hi all

Hoping to get some extra tips for tomorrow, basically I'm helping a friend whos laptop hinge broke in december. It's coming up on 2 years old. The hinge broke when opening the laptop like normal and was not dropped or damaged in any way.

My friend has visited the store (chain of stores) twice and they point blank refuse to do anything because it's physical damage (and some other nonsense excuses to fob him off). So I'm going to make a visit to them tomorrow and try my best to get it resolved. Any tips would be really helpful and I've a couple questions below:

1. Does it matter that it is my friends laptop? (he has given me permission)
   1.1 If this goes to small claims can I act on my friends behalf?
2. The laptop has a physical fault (weak hinge), this should still be covered under the sale of goods & supply of services act 1980?
3. Would it be helpful to call the head office of this company infront of the person I'm dealing with as a last resort?
4. I'm going to bring a copy of the act with me, good idea?
5. Does the EU directive 1999/44/EC help me? I did a bit of researching and was told that the Act we have is actually more powerful than that directive
6. Is it okay that I am going to bring it to a different store? (chain of stores)
7. Any tips or anything would be helpful

You have no contract with the store and therefore no claim and the store does not have to deal with you.

Joseph

Would it not be reasonable to assume the laptop should be able to open and close many thousands of times over the course of its 'reasonable' life?

In terms of evidence the best I can offer really is that there is no other visible damage to the laptop at all except for the hinge being broken. I work with computer repair a lot and I can stay from my experience that the hinge mechanism is designed very badly on this laptop - instead of the standard which is a metal hinge being screwed to the screen and the base this laptop has a hinge that relies on plastic to hold it in place

The head office call was a last resort if the manager was trying to fob me off but I agree it's probably better not to do try it

Thanks for the replies

jor el

Physical damage, after two years, does not point to a manufacturing defect, but to wear and tear or maybe even miss-use. It's going to be near impossible to prove a manufacturing defect, and I don't think there's anything specific in law that will help you here.

There is the general terms of the law that states that all products purchased must be suitable for purpose, and last a reasonable time. This would not cover physical damage though, except if the defect were apparent at time of purchase.

In short, I'd seriously doubt you're going to get anywhere with this. Going back into the shop is a waste of time, they've already given their answer. IF anything, write a letter to the head office, and outline the fault and why you believe that they should be liable to repair it. See where that goes.

This should all be done by the purchaser, not by you. Consumer rights do not transfer to a third party.

Zab

jor el wrote: »

There is the general terms of the law that states that all products purchased must be suitable for purpose, and last a reasonable time. This would not cover physical damage though, except if the defect were apparent at time of purchase.

That depends on what you mean by "physical damage". The vast majority of things that stop working will be physically different to how they were when they were bought, i.e. damaged. In this case there won't be signs of a blow but more likely the hinge has snapped during its normal range of movement.

OP, unless you think that you're particularly good at convincing people in person I'd lean towards writing to them (registered) instead of going in, outlining your belief that the hinge was too weak for its intended purpose, lack of misuse (how worn is the laptop chassis?), what you want and your intention to go to the SCC if that's what you're going to do.

P. Breathnach

Deaddude wrote: »

Would it not be reasonable to assume the laptop should be able to open and close many thousands of times over the course of its 'reasonable' life?

In terms of evidence the best I can offer really is that there is no other visible damage to the laptop at all except for the hinge being broken. I work with computer repair a lot and I can stay from my experience that the hinge mechanism is designed very badly on this laptop - instead of the standard which is a metal hinge being screwed to the screen and the base this laptop has a hinge that relies on plastic to hold it in place....

A little research would be useful. If you can back up your judgement with some evidence that there is a pattern of problems with the hinge on this model of computer, you might have a chance. Time for Google.

foggy_lad

A poorly fitted hinge(too tight) opened and closed thousands of times over two years will eventually snap! The material becomes weak and sometimes brittle from the continous stresses placed on it, this would not necessarily be evident at time of purchase or even at any time afterwards until the joint actually snaps but it is clearly a manufacturing defect possibly due to poor workmanship or poorly fitting parts.

RoboRat

It would be hard to prove its a manufacturer defect unless there are multiple cases of this happening with other people that have been logged.

Personally I don't think that the store are being unreasonable, they probably have to deal on a daily basis with customers who will return an item blaming it on a defect when they have actually broken it. Sometimes a customer may actually be telling the truth or they may have unknowingly caused the damage but sadly thats not the norm.

You may be better to push for a discounted repair if they refuse point blank.

roast

If it's a known issue recognised by the manufacturer, then (more than likely) the physical damage would be repaired in warranty.
Otherwise, it's going to be very difficult to prove a manufacturing flaw.
Obviously, the manufacturer can inspect the device to check for a manufacturing defect, and if that isn't the case, it would be considered normal wear and tear, or user-induced physical damage.

wyndham

Reasonable wear agus tear IMO. No obligation on the store to do anything.

kirving

Let me guess, it's a Dell Inspiron 1525?! :pac:



I know a good few people who got that laptop, and the hinge fell apart after a few years. In my mind, a laptop is not to be someones main computer, and when they are treated as such, problems arise from wear and tear. Still, it should be repaired FOC if there is no other evidence of physical damage.

Print off as many reports of the problem as you can find online as evidence that the defect is a common occurance.

Joseph

Got nowhere in the shop, he kept repeating it was physical damage, which makes no sense because if a pair of expensive shoes falls apart that's physical damage. When I quoted the legislation to him he told me it wasn't law. I assured him it was. Lodging a small claims court application tomorrow.

Zab

You could write to them first. Keep us informed in any case.

foggy_lad

Joseph wrote: »

Got nowhere in the shop, he kept repeating it was physical damage, which makes no sense because if a pair of expensive shoes falls apart that's physical damage. When I quoted the legislation to him he told me it wasn't law. I assured him it was. Lodging a small claims court application tomorrow.

You will be required to write to the store first and tell them what you want and give then 10 working days to deal with the issue before a small claim can proceed. you obviously won't be able to take any case as your friend is the one with the contract with the store and it is up to them to apply to the court.

Galia

How do you know it is not physical damage? Not being rude but it is not your laptop how do you know the life its had up to now??!!!.

kirving

Well, it it's a friends laptop he will have a good idea how it was treated. If the thing hasn't a scratch anywhere else and is well organised, it indicates that the hinge isn't up to standard.

As someone said earlier, same goes for a pair of shoes. It may be wear and tear that causes holes in them in a month, but that's not acceptable.

Galia

Then i would get the owner to contact the store direct so that the store can get in contact with the manufacture to see is it a "known issue" also it may need to be collected by a courier etc...
Otherwise, it's going to be very difficult to prove a manufacturing flaw.
Out of interest can you provide what brand the laptop is?

Del2005

Joseph wrote: »

Got nowhere in the shop, he kept repeating it was physical damage, which makes no sense because if a pair of expensive shoes falls apart that's physical damage. When I quoted the legislation to him he told me it wasn't law. I assured him it was. Lodging a small claims court application tomorrow.

It'd be easy enough to find out if the damage was wear and tear or damage.

But it'll cost you to find out, you need to send it to an engineer who deals with materials and can check it to see if it's caused by fatigue or damage, for the live of me I can't remember what they are called.

But once you have this then you'll need to ascertain how many times the lid was opened and closed, and possibly was it opened and closed correctly if they fight the SCC case, and how many times the lid is designed to open.

You may win but it'll take a lot of time, effort and money (which may be recouped but you won't get you time back.)

Joseph

@ zab & foggy lad: Are you sure that I will have to write to them formally? I can't find it anywhere in the small claims procedure that I have to write to them formally first. There's been three attempts to get this resolved. Today I spoke with a senior manager I don't see what sending a letter will do at this stage. The threat of small claims proceedings didn't seem to bother the manager today. I'd say they might pay some attention to it if I actually initate the proceedings.

@ sher55: I work with laptops and computers every single day. I have repaired countless laptops and many hinges on laptops. This is not physical damage. The laptop is in perfect condition, there are no marks whatsoever to indicate it was mistreated or dropped etc. For this damage I would have had to carefully pick axe the hinge. I know the guy who owns it well and I know how long he's had it. {insert obligatory question and exclamation marks here}

Also, this laptop hinge has a strange design. Any laptop I have dealt with before has been physically screwed to both the base and the cover of the laptop. With this hinge it uses plastic to keep it secure. Which is pathetic.

It's Toshiba by the way

Zab

Joseph wrote: »

@ zab & foggy lad: Are you sure that I will have to write to them formally? I can't find it anywhere in the small claims procedure that I have to write to them formally first. There's been three attempts to get this resolved. Today I spoke with a senior manager I don't see what sending a letter will do at this stage. The threat of small claims proceedings didn't seem to bother the manager today. I'd say they might pay some attention to it if I actually initate the proceedings.

I didn't say there was (although I don't know that there isn't). However, the SCC will all be about what's "reasonable" and whether the parties involved have acted "reasonably". If you don't have all this in writing then you're relying on imperfect memories of conversations where emotions may have been involved. Much better to have it all laid out on paper imo. You trying your best to come to an arrangement without involving the courts may also be looked upon favourably.

cookie1977

Fair and reasonable is what it's all about here. Have you looked around the web to see if others with the same model have suffered from the same problem?

Nonoperational

To be honest, if you've fixed countless hinges in your time the biggest favour you could do him is fix it as cost price for him. I don't know if you'd win this one in the SCC that easily. Broken plastic hinge after 2 years... Hope I'm wrong.

roast

What is the make and model of the laptop anyway?

Oryx

Google shows up a few issues with hinges.

http://www.techsupportforum.com/forums/f108/toshiba-hinge-problem-63767.html

http://forums.toshiba.com/t5/Computer-Troubleshooting/Broken-hinge/td-p/45805

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=60598

Joseph

gpf101 wrote: »

To be honest, if you've fixed countless hinges in your time the biggest favour you could do him is fix it as cost price for him. I don't know if you'd win this one in the SCC that easily. Broken plastic hinge after 2 years... Hope I'm wrong.

I found it impossible to get the correct part. I rang Toshiba technical division and they took out the design specs but were still unable to tell me what part I needed. They could not understand their own design.