Adopting your own Value system or personal code of ethics

Cicero

Having lurked here for a while I couldn't help but notice that so many threads refer to religion or the Catholic church or other such references (there, I've done it again..:p)...

Considering this is an Irish website, frequented by Irish citizens in the main, who live or have grown up in a country with a "professed" 87.4% of population Catholic, I'm curious to know how atheists and agnositcs adopt their own internal value system.

If you move away from organised religion, does this force you to more clearly define an alternative personal value system or ethical code by which you live your life, or indeed, is this something you ever gave much thought to?

Alternatively, have you kept much of your former (assuming you had one) religious codes of practice (such as anti abortion etc).

The one thing I think religion does is "define" people ..i.e. you a Catholic/Protestant/Jew etc , ergo you believe x, y...etc

How do you define yourself and does this change over time?

Sorry for the long 1st post, I'm hoping this could become a reflective thread on how people who have no professed religion or "traditional" belief in God, define their values and/or adopt alternative ones to those they grew up with.

MagicMarker

Never given it a second's thought tbh.

kylith

One thing I am constantly amazed by is the belief, held by some religious people, that being an atheist means that one has no morality. I'm not saying you hold that view, OP, but many seem to.

I was raised a catholic, but haven't considered myself one since my teens. I would say that I have kept much of my 'catholic' morality, in that I think robbing and murdering is wrong. TBH I don't really give it much thought; things that hurt other people are Wrong, and that's that.

I would say that my concept of 'moral' had definitely changed, though. I would have been staunchly anti-abortion in my youth, but now I recognise it as an issue in which there a lot of grey areas. My views on homosexuality (sure, it's grand, if you like that sort of thing) are definitely very different to my religious parents' (it's unnatural, and The Big Beardy Man doesn't like it so it must be wrong).

Oh, and welcome to A&A, we're a friendly enough bunch as long as we have a good stock of babies to snack on

Cicero

Cicero wrote: »

Sorry for the long 1st post, I'm hoping this could become a reflective thread on how people who have no professed religion or "traditional" belief in God, define their values and/or adopt alternative ones to those they grew up with.

With rare exceptions, we're all defined by reference to our parents.

Cicero

MagicMarker wrote: »

Never given it a second's thought tbh.

I'm not surprised...most people, religious or non-religious don't....even if you do start thinking about it, there are easier questions to answer I think...:)

kylith wrote: »

One thing I am constantly amazed by is the belief, held by some religious people, that being an atheist means that one has no morality. I'm not saying you hold that view, OP, but many seem to.

Oh, and welcome to A&A, we're a friendly enough bunch as long as we have a good stock of babies to snack on

Thanks:D...I think morality is the religious word for "personal values" (correct me if I'm wrong)- I certainly don't believe A&A's lack morality- far from it- but maybe it's harder to define or articulate these values when you don't have an organised religion to do it for you?

Cicero

Deleted User wrote: »

With rare exceptions, we're all defined by reference to our parents.

It's certainly one reference group...but not the only one...and if, like Kylith's parents, they're very religious- how do you start the process of differentiating you from your parents, in terms of beliefs/values?

strobe

Cicero wrote: »

Considering this is an Irish website, frequented by Irish citizens in the main, who live or have grown up in a country with a "professed" 87.4% of population Catholic, I'm curious to know how atheists and agnositcs adopt their own internal value system.

If you move away from organised religion, does this force you to more clearly define an alternative personal value system or ethical code by which you live your life, or indeed, is this something you ever gave much thought to?

Well I can only speak for myself and not atheists and agnostics in general. How did I adopt my value system?
Well firstly I'd subscribe to the theory that we (humans) have evolved to feel bad when we see others feeling bad and good when we see others feeling good. So a lot of my 'ethical code' if you want to call it that would have been adopted without any great amount of contemplation. When I stole another kids toy and he started to cry it made me feel bad so I stopped stealing other kids toys. It was mainly automatic I suppose..? That's still as much of a code as I could be said to have. If it makes someone feel bad I don't do it cause people feeling bad makes me feel bad.

Having said that it is actually something I have given quite a bit of thought to as an adult. I even to toyed around with libertinism for a while. Trying to achieve a state in which one is free from all moral reservations. That was... interesting.

I've also, after reading up a bit on moral philosophy (ethics) only recently decided I could be best described as a moral nihilist, which ties in to all this stuff as well I guess.

Alternatively, have you kept much of your former (assuming you had one) religious codes of practice (such as anti abortion etc).

See above I guess. Some of it is the same. I still honour the sixth commandment, but that's because murdering people seems to make a lot of people feel bad, rather than because Moses said to.

I was 8-10ish when I stopped being a Christian so don't think I had any opinions on the ethics of abortion at that stage. I was strongly pro-life in my early atheistic teens and strongly pro-choice in my late atheistic teens. I'm neither now.

The one thing I think religion does is "define" people ..i.e. you a Catholic/Protestant/Jew etc , ergo you believe x, y...etc

How do you define yourself and does this change over time?

I should hope that if anything could be said to define me then it is my actions.

Therefore it would change over time I suppose, yes.

Sorry for the long 1st post, I'm hoping this could become a reflective thread on how people who have no professed religion or "traditional" belief in God, define their values and/or adopt alternative ones to those they grew up with.

It's not that long a post man, and it's a good one. As you can imagine, this topic has come up before but the opening post has tended to be a little more confrontational and well... stupider. :pac:

Sapphire Moonchild

"Don't be a dick" pretty much covers it.

Cicero

strobe wrote: »

I should hope that if anything could be said to define me then it is my actions.

Ha..Moral Nihilist...I like it..:D

Interesting you say "actions"...reminds me of religion class years (and years) ago...the way Protestant religion was taught to us in religion class was that Protestants relied on "good works" to "get to heaven"...was something that always stood out for me as a Catholic... I always questioned what was "bad" about that way to live your life...."sher what's wrong with doing good works????"....never got a proper answer to that one..:p

Cicero

Sapphire Moonchild wrote: »

"Don't be a dick" pretty much covers it.

and if you can define that word, you then have either an organised religion, or a personal value system...;)

robindch

Cicero wrote: »

If you move away from organised religion, does this force you to more clearly define an alternative personal value system [...]

Well, just to pick a few at random, I've never wanted to stone a homosexual to death (Leviticus 20:13), never wanted to murder somebody who disagreed with a priest (Deuteronomy 17:12), never wanted to execute somebody who clobbered one of their parents (Exodus 21:15), never thought to kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21), never wanted to murder uncountable millions because they worship the wrong deity (Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 17:2-5), never wanted to take a gun around town with me, and kill people who work on Saturday (Exodus 31:12-15).

So, I'm happy to say I don't think I've ever had a personal value system that derives from religion

Gbear

Having never been religious it's unlikely that that was the source of my morality.

I probably spend more time thinking about moral questions than I should. I like to rationalise every thing and if I can't have a reasonably clear cut stance on something from first principles (or if I haven't got around to developing one) I try not to have too firm a conviction on it.
For example I'm undecided on State execution and not entirely solid on the abortion question.

Basically I think that you should be able to do anything you want so long as noone else is harmed directly (where harm is something that I have to define but wont because sod that, I can't be bothered).
That is very much at odds with any theology i've ever heard of but I think far superiour because you have to try to justify for example; stoning your wife to death for back-chat.

strobe

Cicero wrote: »

Interesting you say "actions"...reminds me of religion class years (and years) ago...the way Protestant religion was taught to us in religion class was that Protestants relied on "good works" to "get to heaven"...was something that always stood out for me as a Catholic... I always questioned what was "bad" about that way to live your life...."sher what's wrong with doing good works????"....never got a proper answer to that one..:p

Huh, that's interesting... In the Christianity forum it's usually the Prods that accuse the Catholics of believing in a 'works based salvation'. But yeah I agree with you man, it's weird that either lot would consider that a bad thing.

Bannasidhe

Simple rules for being able to look oneself in the eye in the mirror.

Don't do anything to someone else that would piss you off if it was done to you.

If you can't keep your word - don't make promises (actually that goes for threats too )

What consenting adults get up to together in private is none of my damn business.

Who the funk am I to judge how people live their lives -like I've never made a mistake :rolleyes:. As long as they respect and do not harm others I don't care what people do.

If you want me to respect your beliefs you must in turn respect mine.

ohhh - and life in prison should mean life in prison. Don't agree with Capital punishment - I'm far to vengeful for that. :cool:

I don't think my ethical stance had anything to do with religious beliefs. I certainly did not develop them to avoid punishment in the after life but because we are on on this planet together and just because many humans act like dicks doesn't mean I have to.

Penn

"Don't do anything to anyone that you wouldn't want done to yourself" - Morality in a nutshell.

Religion did not create and does not have a monopoly on morality.

Peregrinus

Cicero wrote: »

. . . If you move away from organised religion, does this force you to more clearly define an alternative personal value system or ethical code by which you live your life, or indeed, is this something you ever gave much thought to?

Alternatively, have you kept much of your former (assuming you had one) religious codes of practice (such as anti abortion etc).

Nobody starts off with a “blank slate” when it comes to values.

Our ethical values are imparted to us by our parents and wider family and community, both intentionally (as when we teach our children to share their toys, or not to bite other children) and by “osmosis” (as when our children observe and imitate our behaviour). This is true for religious and non-religious people alike.

As we grow up, we grow through a process of moral development. At first, we observe the ethical rules we have learned out of a fear of external punishment, or in the hope of external reward (from our parents, and later from other authority figures).

In time we “internalize” the rewards and punishments; if we break the moral rules we punish ourselves by feeling bad; if we observe them we reward ourselves by feeling good.

We also reflect on moral rules, considering whether they have some underlying basis and if so what it is, and extending and applying moral principles in areas of life that we haven’t previously encountered.

It is not the case, though, that each of these stages of moral development replaces the earlier ones; rather it adds to them, so that our moral judgments and decisions are driven by a nexus of factors (which may include punishment/reward) rather than just by the more “mature” factors.

And all of this is equally true for both religious and non-religious people.

Right. Suppose that over the course of your live you move from a position of religious belief to one of non-belief. How does this affect your moral code?

Not very much, is often the answer. Of course, you might stop feeling guilty about missing mass, say, but this isn’t really a fundamental moral change. Your assessment of the importance of mass attendance has altered, but there’ll be other things that you regard as a matter of duty (e.g. visiting Great Aunt Annie, who’s a crashing bore but who can’t get out much any more, and who really welcomes visits) and you’ll still feel just as bad as always if you skip your visits to her. Your moral views about the importance of discharging your duties haven’t changed; you just accept a slightly different “menu” of duties that you acknowledge.

There could be moral precepts that you accepted only because you accepted the authority of a church, and these of course you will no longer accept. But for most people this is a surprisingly short list. We already live in a culture which is reluctant to accept moral precepts founded purely on a claim to authority, as is evidenced by the fact that the great majority of self-identified Catholics find no difficulty in rejecting the “official” morality on contraception, or pre-marital sex. So, even when you are still a Catholic, the moral precepts that you accept purely because you are a Catholic and for no other reason, are probably quite few.

If, as a Catholic, you have moral concerns about abortion, therefore, it’s unlikely that you have them just because the Catholic church tells you to be concerned. There are probably other reasons for your concern, and those reasons won’t disappear when you cease to see yourself as a Catholic.

The bottom line, I think, is that losing religious belief doesn’t necessarily involve a wholesale reevaluation of your moral system; it’s more like a few changes around the edges.

sbsquarepants

Penn wrote: »

"Don't do anything to anyone that you wouldn't want done to yourself" - Morality in a nutshell.

Religion did not create and does not have a monopoly on morality.

Religion has no monopoly on morality i'll give you that, in fact in a lot of cases it has no connection to morality. Like condeming half the world to poverty by preaching contraception is "immoral". Thats without even getting into things like suicide bombers and so on.

As for the don't do anything you wouldn't like done to you, i think that's a fine sentiment but doesn't hold up under scrutiny. For example i wouldn't like to be hit over the head with a baseball bat, but if i wake up some night and find some scumbag robbing my house that's what i'll do to him and i have no moral problem with that whatsoever.
I also find there is a very big moral grey area when it comes to revenge. Basically i always try be nice to people, and by nature im very non aggresive. But sometimes people, by their actions, "deserve" the opposite to a greater or lesser extent.
There will of course be people who argue, who am i to decide that someone "deserves" a box or whatever and they may well be right, but i answer to me, not them.
I have basically learned to appease my conscience, i feel terrible when i upset people needlessly,. I learned early on in life, that i'm not cut out for cheating on girlfriends for example.
But whether this is morality or selfishness is open to debate - i do the things i do (or don't do as the case may be), so i feel good about myself and sleep well at night. If i could figure a way of getting into my local aib and walking out with a million quid i'd do it no questions asked, i know it's illegal and possibly immoral, but i would still do it and not feel bad. I wouldn't hurt the security guard for that million quid though -yet if he done something sufficiently bad on me i'd have no problem with exacting revenge.

Sapphire Moonchild

Penn wrote: »

"Do onto others as you would like done to you"

So I gotta go around giving everyone handjobs?

Gbear

Peregrinus wrote: »

If, as a Catholic, you have moral concerns about abortion, therefore, it’s unlikely that you have them just because the Catholic church tells you to be concerned. There are probably other reasons for your concern, and those reasons won’t disappear when you cease to see yourself as a Catholic.

I disagree. Alot of positions that are held by the religious are based upon religious concepts.

For example, maybe you believe that masturbation is immoral because the bible says so or your priest says so.

Sin is a concept that is obviously linked to morality but if you don't believe in the concept underpinning sin, than those things that your religion considers sinful could quite easily become moral to a person who is no longer religious.

Bannasidhe

sbsquarepants wrote: »

As for the don't do anything you wouldn't like done to you, i think that's a fine sentiment but doesn't hold up under scrutiny. For example i wouldn't like to be hit over the head with a baseball bat, but if i wake up some night and find some scumbag robbing my house that's what i'll do to him and i have no moral problem with that whatsoever.

Ah - but in that instance the scumbag has done to someone else what (I imagine ) they would not like to be done to them and therefore will suffer the repercussions via a baseball bat to the head.
If you broke into someone's house in the middle of the night and they brained you with a bat - well, that's your own fault isn't it.

Penn

Sapphire Moonchild wrote: »

So I gotta go around giving everyone handjobs?

That's not my quote.

But yes.

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nobody starts off with a “blank slate” when it comes to values.

Our ethical values are imparted to us by our parents and wider family and community, both intentionally (as when we teach our children to share their toys, or not to bite other children) and by “osmosis” (as when our children observe and imitate our behaviour). This is true for religious and non-religious people alike.

Seems to me those two statements contradict each other .

How can we not start off with a blank slate - implying there is something already written on the slate so to speak yet also have our ethical values imparted to us?

If the slate is not blank then surely what is already there is re-enforced by family, community etc.
If the slate is blank - then our ethical values are taught to us.

irishh_bob

Cicero wrote: »

Having lurked here for a while I couldn't help but notice that so many threads refer to religion or the Catholic church or other such references (there, I've done it again..:p)...

Considering this is an Irish website, frequented by Irish citizens in the main, who live or have grown up in a country with a "professed" 87.4% of population Catholic, I'm curious to know how atheists and agnositcs adopt their own internal value system.

If you move away from organised religion, does this force you to more clearly define an alternative personal value system or ethical code by which you live your life, or indeed, is this something you ever gave much thought to?

Alternatively, have you kept much of your former (assuming you had one) religious codes of practice (such as anti abortion etc).

The one thing I think religion does is "define" people ..i.e. you a Catholic/Protestant/Jew etc , ergo you believe x, y...etc

How do you define yourself and does this change over time?

Sorry for the long 1st post, I'm hoping this could become a reflective thread on how people who have no professed religion or "traditional" belief in God, define their values and/or adopt alternative ones to those they grew up with.

i think your value system and code of ethics is often challenged , some people have it challenged more than others , for example , thier was a time i would have said lieing to police was completley unethical and wrong , experience taught me that being completley honest with police was an ethic i couldnt afford as it cost me too much the first time round and i paid for it despite having been the innocent party


essentially what im saying is that its easier for some people to abide by a strict code than others , not stealing is a lot easier if your from donybrook than from darfur

Coriolanus

JS Mill was one of the first non-religious "thinkers" I was exposed to and Utilitarianism, at the time at least struck me as infinitely more humane than blindly following the dictats of a desert people.
I don't think about it too much but when I do, I find the basic principles are pretty much still at the core of my moral thinking.

Delirium

How would a person know if their value system is based on the religion of their childhood?

I went mass every week, but my mind was anywhere but in the church. Spent the whole time daydreaming

I'd actually think most of my own system would be more likely based on westerns, books and comics. It was the heroes contained in those things that I aspired to be. They defended people in trouble because they felt it was the right thing to do.

It also probably didn't help that I was obsessed with Greek, Roman and Norse mythology. People really didn't like being asked why all the "cool" gods were fantasy but their god wasn't :pac:

recedite

Sapphire Moonchild wrote: »

So I gotta go around giving everyone handjobs?

Only if they return the favour. And so The Golden Rule falls at the first hurdle.

Bannasidhe

recedite wrote: »

Only if they return the favour. And so The Golden Rule falls at the first hurdle.

That ain't necessarily so....

Peregrinus

Sapphire Moonchild wrote: »

So I gotta go around giving everyone handjobs?

I so want this for a sig.

Peregrinus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Seems to me those two statements contradict each other .

How can we not start off with a blank slate - implying there is something already written on the slate so to speak yet also have our ethical values imparted to us?

If the slate is not blank then surely what is already there is re-enforced by family, community etc.
If the slate is blank - then our ethical values are taught to us.

Fair point.

What I meant to say was that, by the time you have the psychological, intellectual, etc equipment to consider moral issues and frame a moral system for yourself, you already have a deeply internalised moral system which has been given to you by your parents, family, community and culture. To use a building analogy, you can extend, modify, redecorate, etc, this, but you never get to design and build a new house on a greenfield site.

Beruthiel

Cicero wrote: »

How do you define yourself and does this change over time?

Not sure how I 'define' myself? But, without doubt, people do change over time.
Certainly, I have refined my views on life over time.
That is a logical conclusion to your time on earth and your experiences on it. Fresh knowledge can have you seeing things from another perspective.

Sorry for the long 1st post, I'm hoping this could become a reflective thread on how people who have no professed religion or "traditional" belief in God, define their values and/or adopt alternative ones to those they grew up with.

If you are lucky enough to have a parent instil values in you, that's a good start.
As you get older, you will drop some and refine others according to your own personal standards.

I didn't bring my daughter up with religious values, I just constantly asked her if she would like X done to her.
She was able to form her own values from that one question being asked on a regular basis and the follow up discussion on it.

Cicero

Thanks for all the replies guys...I've read them all...:)

It would seem there's very little if anything to differentiate "believers" from agnostics/atheists from a personal values perspective...in fact in some cases, atheists appear to have a more determined or clear picture of their own personal values as they've been forced to think things out for themselves in the absence of an institution doing it for them.

I've also noticed that the values espoused are very similar to "western/Christian" values which is easily explainable due to cultural upbringing...it got me thinking if there's such a person as an ex Muslim or Hindu atheist, how far removed would their value system be to the religion they left behind...views on things like marriage, gender equality etc...would they adopt western beliefs and values or would the stay with their cultural ones they grew up with..

cyberwolf77

I have long since defined my personal code of behavior based off my life experience and extensive reading in many fields. I believe it is wrong to kill for no reason or profit, however if someone intends me bodily harm I will kill in self-defense. I believe theft for profit is wrong, but I feel that theft to recover property that was stolen in the first place is right and proper. I also believe that so long as both parties are of the age of reason and consenting adults then what they do behind closed doors is no one's business but theirs. I feel that everyone should do what makes them happy so long as it is not at the expense of another's happiness.

recedite

I wouldn't "follow" any one person, living or dead, but here are some interesting Thomas Jefferson quotes (the enigmatic guy who wrote The American Declaration of Independence but was also a slave owner:mad:).

"Religions are all alike- founded upon fables and mythologies".

“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature.”


“Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

“The art of life is the art of avoiding pain.”

On matters of style, swim with the current, on matters of principle, stand like a rock

“Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not.”

“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”

“The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. ”

“Coffee - the favorite drink of the civilized world.”

“I do not take a single newspaper, nor read The Daily Mail*, and I feel myself infinitely the happier for it.”

"‎Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda, smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye can see."

*he actually said "nor read one a month", but only because The Daily Mail hadnt been invented at the time.

Thomas Eshuis

To put it in very simple and limited terms, I live by the following rules:
To treat others like how I would like to be treated.
And to argue (with words not violence) against hate and wilful distortion of reality.

There´s probably more, but this is basically my ´lifestyle´ or morals.

Cicero

I think traditional Irish values of community etc were lost over the last decade......I feel that Ireland is very much in transition now...moving back towards a community approach but with a different outlook in terms of religious institutions and spirituality which will make for an interesting future in Irish society...Richard Kearneys "The Irish Mind" was a great work from the 1980s attempting to explain the Irish psyche...." kearney Reads the Irish Tradition as one that accepts diversity contraditcion and ambivalence as conditions of thinking.." apologies for this thread turning into a philosophical discussion but I did say it was a reflection thread...:)

One link below to Kearneys book...worth a read even now, nearly 30 years on if you can get a copy ...

http://www.jstor.org/pss/25512731