Joe Frazier from 1969-1971 VS Holyfield from 1989-1993

RiseToTheTop

Who takes this fight in your eyes?

I can see Holyfield taking Frazier's left hooks to the body and head, firing back in the process. I don't ever see it going less than the distance. 2 fighters with awesome heart and great will.

IMO Holyfield wins on points. Split decision.

walshb

I will take Joe. One man had Joe's absolute number, and that was Foreman. Holyfield liked to war, mix it up. Hoyfield bangs, but not as heavy as some others. Not heavy enough to deter Joe enough. Joe's pace, stamina and workrate will see him win this on points.

Joe is like a bigger, stronger, heavier hitter and even fitter version of Qawi. I know, that was at CW, but at HW, Joe will be on Holyfield all night long and will have too much workrate and stamina to lose this.

tryingmybestt

frazier is all wrong for holyfield......holyfield was good on the inside byt frazier was one of the best

this fight would be fought in a phone booth because thats how joe would want it and holyfield wouldnt be able to do anything about it

i'd say a points defeat or even late stoppage for frazier

The Prodigy 2

Frazier. would be a head to head battle very close ! frazier would walk him down in the late rounds punishing him with hooks too the body and head leading his way to a UD

cowzerp

Holyfield, I don't see him been KO'd or outboxed so it would be down to a war and i think Evander had the more technical skills-Fraziers where more about taking you out and if this did not happen then i think Evanders wear and tear approach would win out, Would be a great and close fight in my opinion..

walshb

In a ten fight series I think Holyfield could win 3 matches.

I watch the effort that Ali put in and I cannot see Evander doing this. He is not as good as the 1971 Ali. He may hit a small bit harder, but he is not overall as good. Frazier will be on Holy all night, smothering, and banging all the time. Holy will land a hell of a lot, but will take a lot too.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

In a ten fight series I think Holyfield could win 3 matches.

I watch the effort that Ali put in and I cannot see Evander doing this. He is not as good as the 1971 Ali. He may hit a small bit harder, but he is not overall as good. Frazier will be on Holy all night, smothering, and banging all the time. Holy will land a hell of a lot, but will take a lot too.

No point comparing Ali and Evander, Evander would be more like Frazier in that he liked to bully his opponent-i think Evander could match him toe to toe and mix it up with some technical Boxing that Frazier would not really use-i think this style of fight will only suit Frazier if he can KO Evander and i just could not see it, Bigger men have tried and had no joy, Bowe for example.

tryingmybestt

evander woild not be allowed to box against frazier

frazier is stronger, bigger, more powerful and relentless

frazier would wear him out......evander looked very good against big men who were slow coming forward and he could pick his shots

frazier would not give him time or space to block his shots

importantly holyfield did not have very quick feet to allow him to box frazier, this would prevenet him from trying to escape fraziers relentless attack

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

No point comparing Ali and Evander, Evander would be more like Frazier in that he liked to bully his opponent-i think Evander could match him toe to toe and mix it up with some technical Boxing that Frazier would not really use-i think this style of fight will only suit Frazier if he can KO Evander and i just could not see it, Bigger men have tried and had no joy, Bowe for example.

I hear ya as regards the comparison. Thing is, where I see Joe winning is that Ali wasn't as easy to find and tag. Holyfield is easier to hit. That is more so why I used Ali as an example.

Ali hit Joe with so so many clean shots. Two-one as regards head shots. Evander will not get that ratio. Joe will land a deal more to Holyfield's head and body than what he landed on Ali. Too much stamina and work rate. Holyfiled sure could fight, but he did not have enough consistent sustained pace and volume to beat Joe. Holyfield liked his breaks here and there. He will not get them breaks when Joe is in there pressing non stop.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

I hear ya as regards the comparison. Thing is, where I see Joe winning is that Ali wasn't as easy to find and tag. Holyfield is easier to hit. That is more so why I used Ali as an example.

Ali hit Joe with so so many clean shots. Two-one as regards head shots. Evander will not get that ratio. Joe will land a deal more to Holyfield's head and body than what he landed on Ali. Too much stamina and work rate. Holyfiled sure could fight, but he did not have enough consistent sustained pace and volume to beat Joe. Holyfiled liked his breaks here and there.

Evander will meet him head on and take what Frazier has to give him-Bowe hit harder than Frazier and Evander could stand toe to toe with him, This will be a fight and i don't think stamina is an issue

Again i do't see this as a guarantee and think it would be a close fight

tryingmybestt

i dont know if bowe hit harder than frazier....dont think so

the big difference is Holyfield could stand off bowe and circle and box and take a rest

he would not be able to do this against frazier

holyfields excellent jab would be nullified by frazier being too close at his chest, puchsing him back off balance

holyfields slow feet wouldnt allow him to circle and box

frazier should get the late stoppage

section4

i agree, that frazier left hook when it landed properly was as hard as anything bowe threw, and something i always raise when talking about frazier is his punch rate, which was that of a welterweight, so it wouldnt be just punch for punch it would be frazier probably throwing 30% more punches.
Frazier also stopped chuvalo, the only other person to stop chuvalo was foreman.

Daroxtar

tryingmybestt wrote: »

frazier is stronger, bigger, more powerful and relentless

How do you make that out? Holyfield was 3 inches taller and in the time frame given Joe was fighting at about 205 while Evander was coming in around 210.
Re the fight, I see Joe take it on points. He'll be too busy for Holyfield but i think Holyfields granite jaw can take everything joe throws and he'll tie him up a lot. However that would play to joes strengths as a close range fighter. Holyfield was ferociously strong too so i cant see joe bullying him in the ring but i dont see Evander throwing enough leather to outpoint joe and as has been said he wont get the space to really unload his best shots. Joe UD

tryingmybestt

Daroxtar wrote: »

How do you make that out? Holyfield was 3 inches taller and in the time frame given Joe was fighting at about 205 while Evander was coming in around 210.
Re the fight, I see Joe take it on points. He'll be too busy for Holyfield but i think Holyfields granite jaw can take everything joe throws and he'll tie him up a lot. However that would play to joes strengths as a close range fighter. Holyfield was ferociously strong too so i cant see joe bullying him in the ring but i dont see Evander throwing enough leather to outpoint joe and as has been said he wont get the space to really unload his best shots. Joe UD

height doesnt necessarily mean bigger

frazier was naturally bigger

holyfield came in heavier but it was a lot of unnatural muscle from weights....he was a natural cruiser weight....look at his stats.....he had very skinny legs for a HW....the strength comes fromt he legs and core.....frazier had thick legs.....holyfield was top heavy at HW.....his big head weighed about 4 stone alone lol

Daroxtar

tryingmybestt wrote: »

Daroxtar wrote: »

How do you make that out? Holyfield was 3 inches taller and in the time frame given Joe was fighting at about 205 while Evander was coming in around 210.
Re the fight, I see Joe take it on points. He'll be too busy for Holyfield but i think Holyfields granite jaw can take everything joe throws and he'll tie him up a lot. However that would play to joes strengths as a close range fighter. Holyfield was ferociously strong too so i cant see joe bullying him in the ring but i dont see Evander throwing enough leather to outpoint joe and as has been said he wont get the space to really unload his best shots. Joe UD

height doesnt necessarily mean bigger

frazier was naturally bigger

holyfield came in heavier but it was a lot of unnatural muscle from weights....he was a natural cruiser weight....look at his stats.....he had very skinny legs for a HW....the strength comes fromt he legs and core.....frazier had thick legs.....holyfield was top heavy at HW.....his big head weighed about 4 stone alone lol

Alright so, the next time I'm fighting someone who is taller and heavier than me I'll take confidence from the fact that despite the physical evidence of metric or empirical measurement I am actually bigger than him. In further news manny pacquiao has decided to challenge vitali klitchko for his HW title as he believes klitchko is actually a 5 foot 4 mexican

cowzerp

Daroxtar wrote: »

Alright so, the next time I'm fighting someone who is taller and heavier than me I'll take confidence from the fact that despite the physical evidence of metric or empirical measurement I am actually bigger than him. In further news manny pacquiao has decided to challenge vitali klitchko for his HW title as he believes klitchko is actually a 5 foot 4 mexican

Well said, Fact's are Fact's and Holyfield factually was bigger and they where both actually small heavyweights in reality-if anything Holyfield was the better at dealing with bigger men, Frazier would be the bigger banger but i think Holyfield would be the stronger in the clinches and this fight would be fought in that area mainly.

walshb

Regarding the size of each, Holyfield was certainly big enough here to compete. Has a height advantage, reach advantage, and in boxing both these measurements are important. He was also as heavy as Frazier at HW, and it was solid muscle he was carrying too.

tryingmybestt

i think most ppl will accept frazier was the 'Naturally' bigger man at HW...holyfield was a pumped up CW

if de la hoya packs on the weight to move to MW and he weighs heavier than Hagler come fight night would you still stay de la hoya is bigger......my point is natural weight is important in boxing....most boxers can pack on the pounds but if its not natural it can have a negative effect

Holyfield had very skinny legs to carry his bulky upper body

power comes from the legs and core.......frazier was a natural HW....he fought between about 200 and 229 pounds.....holyfeild was all muscle from weights, wasn't as natural....

IMo frazier is the stronger, the bigger hitter and the busier

holyfield is taller and longer reach but as i said before i feel these attributes will be nullified by frazier being at his chest all night long

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Regarding the size of each, Holyfield was certainly big enough here to compete. Has a height advantage, reach advantage, and in boxing both these measurements are important. He was also as heavy as Frazier at HW, and it was solid muscle he was carrying too.

Agreed and considering the fact he is the most succeful Heavyweight ever that proves that he can truly be classed as a heavyweight

Holyfield was in with Big Big men and never let there size beat him so a Fraziers size is a non issue here, now his proven power would be an issue but 1 i don't think matters too much to Evander.

And that solid muscle certainly made the in fighting and wtrenght needed in this type of fight an advantage to Evander, This fight would be awesome

tryingmybestt

nobody is disputing whether or not Holyfield is a good HW and can compete....the question is whether he'd beat Frazier

Frazier is naturally bigger......having muscle from weights makes a fighter more mechanical and have less power if muscle bound.....

Holyfield came up from LHW, then CW and then HW......his skill and toughness made him successful as a HW.....at HW he wasn't a huge banger or as fluid a boxer as he was a CW

I feel frazier is the stronger, quicker at HW, much more powerful.....he is also the much busier fighter with greater stamina imo

i can't see how holyfield can keep frazier away from him and theres no way he beats frazier on the inside

tryingmybestt

cowzerp wrote: »

Agreed and considering the fact he is the most succeful Heavyweight ever that proves that he can truly be classed as a heavyweight

why is he considered the most successful HW ever??

winning title four times???

did he have the most defences or longes reign??? NO

Did he fight and win against the best opposition at HW?? No

The fact he won it 4 times means he also LOST it 4 times

Silly stats like that mean nothing IMO

he is a top 10 HW but definitely not the most successful....Louis, ALi etc. rank much higher

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Agreed and considering the fact he is the most succeful Heavyweight ever that proves that he can truly be classed as a heavyweight

Holyfield was in with Big Big men and never let there size beat him so a Fraziers size is a non issue here, now his proven power would be an issue but 1 i don't think matters too much to Evander.

And that solid muscle certainly made the in fighting and wtrenght needed in this type of fight an advantage to Evander, This fight would be awesome

You know, stylistically this has epic written all over it. Could be one of the most action packed fights ever, and action packed skill wise throughout. Very technical, intense and brutal. My concern for Holy is his engine.

Now, I know he had stamina, but liked his breaks. I know he showed plenty of stamina in fights, but Frazier brings a whole lot more to the table in terms on non stop action. He will not be allowed any breathers here.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

You know, stylistically this has epic written all over it. Could be one of the most action packed fights ever, and action packed skill wise throughout. Very technical, intense and brutal. My concern for Holy is his engine.

Now, I know he had stamina, but liked his breaks. I know he showed plenty of stamina in fights, but Frazier brings a whole lot more to the table in terms on non stop action. He will not be allowed any breathers here.

I agree with ya Bren, thats why i think it would be intriging-Evander did not become the most succesful Heavy ever by not toughing out hard times.

walshb

section4 wrote: »

i agree, that frazier left hook when it landed properly was as hard as anything bowe threw, and something i always raise when talking about frazier is his punch rate, which was that of a welterweight, so it wouldnt be just punch for punch it would be frazier probably throwing 30% more punches.
Frazier also stopped chuvalo, the only other person to stop chuvalo was foreman.

Chuvalo as good as he was was has not got the same skills and technique and damaging shots that a 205-210 lbs Holyfield had. Chuvalo was stopped on accumulation. Holyfield will be laying a lot more quality leather on Joe, and this must be considered. Holyfiled took a great shot too. Joe could be hurt. I am wary of this. In fight two Ali had him badly hurt several times, and once I think in rd two of fight II Ali had him ready to go before the ref accidentally interfered. Now, I know I said I believe Holyfield will not deter Joe, but really, one must consider that Holyfield could certainly hurt him. Still going with Joe on points.

cowzerp

As far as fantasy match ups goes this is a great 1, it would be foolhardy to say 1 would definetly win here.

There has been some good reasons for why both could win abd the fact it is a hard 1 to call is what makes it so good a fight.

body shot

Both are great fighters. Hard one to call.

Frazier

H. Flashman

Qwai who always reminded me of frazier gave holyfield a hell of a fight but holyfield was very raw at the time. it would take a hell of a fighter (which of course frazier was) to stop holyfield and he was damn smart in there. I'd be surprised if in a trilogy Holyfield didn't get one win and wouldn't be shocked if he got two.

RiseToTheTop

IMO Holyfield would take Joe's best punches. Holyfield took the best of Bowe's and I really dont think Frazier hit harder than Bowe. Remember Round 10 of Holyfield-Bowe 1? I never saw Joe in his career go a round like that against an opponent.

I think Holyfield is better at boxing, which is why I feel he will get the decision. Unless Frazier gets the KO I don't see him winning. Going for the KO is how Joe always fought.

(btw, I know Bowe stopped Holyfield in their third match, but im talking prime Holyfield for this thread.)

walshb

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

IMO Holyfield would take Joe's best punches. Holyfield took the best of Bowe's and I really dont think Frazier hit harder than Bowe. Remember Round 10 of Holyfield-Bowe 1? I never saw Joe in his career go a round like that against an opponent.

I think Holyfield is better at boxing, which is why I feel he will get the decision. Unless Frazier gets the KO I don't see him winning. Going for the KO is how Joe always fought.

(btw, I know Bowe stopped Holyfield in their third match, but im talking prime Holyfield for this thread.)

Prime Holyfield was from the Dokes fight thru to Bowe 1. That guy was very good. The Qawi "comparsion" while not strictly accurate, shows how a fight may play out. Now, Frazier is a hell of a lot stronger and heavier handed than Qawi, BUT, Holyfield will be bigger, stronger and more mature too; he is not the young and lighter man from 1986. So, that makes for a hell of a scrap.

tryingmybestt

holyfields best HW performance was Bowe 2 imo....also his first fight with tyson .....this was holyfields peak at HW i feel, not before