Do you think the details of the potential referendum are being debated thoroughly ?

Drumpot

I was speaking to a politician recently (great discussion actually). Wont say which party as I dont support parties and dont want this to turn into a discussion on party policies.

Basically I was stating that while the government is trying to figure out whether or not to have a referendum, could they not try and educate and debate publically the merits of whatever these changes are ?

The cynic in us all might think that its because the government simply dont want to have to put in the effor to "sell" anything European at the moment, but the Politician was quite adamant that these things are being debated (in Seanaid etc), but people simply arent interested in listening.

I agree that people generally arent interested in listening to the specifics of these kind of things, but isnt that what we should be trying to change ? (peoples involvement in the decisions being made by our government ?). I would of thought it prudent to try and encourage more public debates (in towns and on tv or broader audience) and while I know its naieve to think that people will listen, could we not at least try and get the message out to as many as possible ?

I suggested a high profile debate (ala the debates around election), one with prominent economists with differing views (2 v 2) and then one with prominent politicians who take alternative views (not parties, so the likes of Stephen Donnelly could debate with Peter Mathews for example!).

Maybe its just me. I have made a conscious effor to not read as much in the news and try to stop watching Vinnie Brown and the likes (cause they only ever make me feel worse and like hurling the TV out the window!), so perhaps I am not hearing all the objective debates being had on what our politicians might or might not be putting to the people.

I understand that many people simply dont care about the details of these kind of things, but for the people who are actually interested in politics (and the debates etc), do you feel that the issues relating to the potential referendum are being publically debated in a manner that is giving the majority of people a clear understanding of what is going on ? Am I being unfair and cynical in thinking our government simply doesnt want to cause a stir by explaining the ramifications of what they are trying to pass ?

Scofflaw

I think I'd argue that there's a little truth in everything there. The issues are being debated at the political level, and they are covered in the media, but the level of coverage in the media is likely to reflect the media's perception of the level of public interest, balanced by their perception of the degree to which coverage is in the public interest.

After all, there's nothing stopping anyone on boards.ie from coming to this forum for such a discussion, but there isn't in any sense an overwhelming flood of people doing so.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Godge

Drumpot wrote: »

I was speaking to a politician recently (great discussion actually). Wont say which party as I dont support parties and dont want this to turn into a discussion on party policies.

Basically I was stating that while the government is trying to figure out whether or not to have a referendum, could they not try and educate and debate publically the merits of whatever these changes are ?

The cynic in us all might think that its because the government simply dont want to have to put in the effor to "sell" anything European at the moment, but the Politician was quite adamant that these things are being debated (in Seanaid etc), but people simply arent interested in listening.

I agree that people generally arent interested in listening to the specifics of these kind of things, but isnt that what we should be trying to change ? (peoples involvement in the decisions being made by our government ?). I would of thought it prudent to try and encourage more public debates (in towns and on tv or broader audience) and while I know its naieve to think that people will listen, could we not at least try and get the message out to as many as possible ?

I suggested a high profile debate (ala the debates around election), one with prominent economists with differing views (2 v 2) and then one with prominent politicians who take alternative views (not parties, so the likes of Stephen Donnelly could debate with Peter Mathews for example!).

Maybe its just me. I have made a conscious effor to not read as much in the news and try to stop watching Vinnie Brown and the likes (cause they only ever make me feel worse and like hurling the TV out the window!), so perhaps I am not hearing all the objective debates being had on what our politicians might or might not be putting to the people.

I understand that many people simply dont care about the details of these kind of things, but for the people who are actually interested in politics (and the debates etc), do you feel that the issues relating to the potential referendum are being publically debated in a manner that is giving the majority of people a clear understanding of what is going on ? Am I being unfair and cynical in thinking our government simply doesnt want to cause a stir by explaining the ramifications of what they are trying to pass ?

One flaw in your suggestion is that the politicians would come along and debate the merits of the issues. That is unlikely. The Government would defend its position while the opposition, particularly the likes of Sinn Fein and FF, would adopt whatever position they thought most likely to be popular whether for or against. The ULA meanwhile would just oppose everything even if it is the holy grail of socialist parties worldwide (see debate on property tax, for example).

later12

Drumpot wrote: »

I understand that many people simply dont care about the details of these kind of things, but for the people who are actually interested in politics (and the debates etc), do you feel that the issues relating to the potential referendum are being publically debated in a manner that is giving the majority of people a clear understanding of what is going on ? Am I being unfair and cynical in thinking our government simply doesnt want to cause a stir by explaining the ramifications of what they are trying to pass ?

In fairness the responsibility to educate the public with regards to the Fiscal Compact is one that lies with private individuals themselves. It is not the responsibility of the Government to spark debate.

The information on the Fiscal Compact is entirely accessible and freely available. Debate on its advantages and disadvantages is ready to be had across the length & breadth of the continent whether in an online setting or in the 'real world'. Such engagement is firmly the responsibility of the citizen.

Scofflaw

later10 wrote: »

In fairness the responsibility to educate the public with regards to the Fiscal Compact is one that lies with private individuals themselves. It is not the responsibility of the Government to spark debate.

The information on the Fiscal Compact is entirely accessible and freely available. Debate on its advantages and disadvantages is ready to be had across the length & breadth of the continent whether in an online setting or in the 'real world'. Such engagement is firmly the responsibility of the citizen.

And the indications from here - and indeed from other similar sites - is that such things are of interest only to a really quite small minority until/unless they come to a public vote and the media kicks into high gear on them. The pattern on all recent such issues has been the same - a very small minority are interested in advance from primary sources, and inform themselves fairly comprehensively (or adopt a position and ignore the information, of course), while the majority only come along much later, and prefer to grab quick information from secondary or tertiary sources.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Drumpot

But thats sort of what I am saying . . As a nation I dont believe we are that differant to most (though we like to brand ourselves and put ourselves down alot). Most people arent interested in how their country is run or how most decisions are made until voting time . .

I agree that what i suggest could be made into a circus, but what I am trying to suggest is that we should be trying to shift from being a reactive electorate to being proactively involved in the major decisions that our government takes.

While doing what I suggest mightnt change much/anything, what I curious to see is if people can come up with alternative ways of getting people involved. More education at a younger age and particularly an education that encourages students to debate/disagree with conventional wisdom.

I dont believe that it is impossible to improve politics, accountability or indeed how the electorate vote, but I dont doubt that it would require a major cultural shift over time. But the likes of Stephen Donnelly have given me some hope that the likes of his very professional/commendable efforts can force/embarrass other voters to vote for a better, more educated politician and more importantly that these people can get to the top.

dublinman1990

Well IMO, I understood that while reading another EU treaty namely Lisbon which is published as a EU journal, I read most of the actual treaty, and to tell you the truth, I found it as with all other Irish people to be detailed and very time consuming to the extreme.

Most of the legal definitions was very difficult to stay in my head at all.

I thought at the time in 2009 was a good time to publish and unveil the white paper on Lisbon which was unveiled by the last Government. I think the full version of any treaty is only suitable for politicians and those in the legal profession.

The Fiscal Compact Treaty has already been released and to tell you, there is not a lot of detail, it only has a total of 11 pages, anyone is able to start a thread in the EU forum they can do so if they want, it really is horrible IMO.

Do you think that there is an opinion that Thomas Pringle has wasted in putting it to a petition and to get President Michael D Higgins to make decision on it?