MORE ON THE RTE MINIMUX IN NORTHERN IRELAND

mrdtv2010

From ukfree.tv:


Northern Ireland "mini multiplex" (NIMM)
I have added information to the UK Free TV database to cover the so-called mini-multiplex that will carry three Irish channels, TG4, RTE1 and RTE2 in a very special multiplex from three transmitters in Northern Ireland.

Published on 1st February 2012 at 20:37 by Brian Butterworth
A special service for 80%-90% of households in Northern Ireland will see three Freeview additional channels being available. These will be:

TG4 - Irish language television channel - Teilifis Gaeilge
RTÉ Television: RTÉ One
RTÉ Television: RTÉ Two (in HD on Saorview)


Some homes will be able to receive the services directly from the Saorview transmitters in the RoI (see SAORVIEW - Ireland's free digital television service ), and others will, from the digital switchover date of Wednesday 24th October 2012, have a service provided from three Freeview transmitters in Northern Ireland.

Brougher Mountain at 2kW on C36
Black Mountain at 1kW on unknown channel
Carnmoney Hill 16w on unknown channel




However, you will not be able to view these services using a standard-definition Freeview receiver - a Freeview HD box or set will be required. It is not known at this time if the NIMM will carry RTE2 in HD, as per the Saorview service. TG4 and RTE1 are broadcast in standard definition at the moment.

The requirement for a Freeview HD receiver is because the services are being broadcasting in "D-Book Option 11", which uses the DVB-T2 standard ("a new mode, option 11, is being planned for a multiplex in Northern Ireland. Receivers should be able to switch between these automatically", D-Book 7, DTG164 is defined in appendix G as: FFT size 32k, 16QAM modulation, 1/128 guard interval, PP7, FEC 64800). Digital Television - Technical guidance on the availability of TG4 in Northern Ireland after digital switchover says that Option 11 is: DVB-T2 16QAM FEC 1/2.

The Cush

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

From ukfree.tv:

...

It is not known at this time if the NIMM will carry RTE2 in HD, as per the Saorview service. TG4 and RTE1 are broadcast in standard definition at the moment.

It is known that RTÉ2 and the other services will be broadcast in SD only on the mini-mux.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

From ukfree.tv:

Brougher Mountain at 2kW on C36
Black Mountain at 1kW on unknown channel
Carnmoney Hill 16w on unknown channel

Haven't seen any official confirmation that C36 will be used at Brougher Mt, I wonder if it's just speculation.

Digifriendly

Big question for sports lovers - will some sports be 'blacked out' on RTE 2 the way they are on satellite to viewers here in NI?

mrdtv2010

Sometimes he is very accurate but E36 is one of the 600Mhz auction frequencies in the UK, so we'll see. Its a good start and no doubt he will update it. I am surprised they haven't disclosed the frequencies yet given that they are internationally coordinated already. The DVB-T2 mode chosen will give very good coverage even with the low ERPs.

The Cush

Digifriendly wrote: »

Big question for sports lovers - will some sports be 'blacked out' on RTE 2 the way they are on satellite to viewers here in NI?

Saorview:Brian may be able to answer that question over in his thread.

Rick_

The ukfreetv website is quite well known for it's lies and speculation being posted as fact. I wouldn't believe anything you read on there until you see it confirmed by an official source.

watty

The issue on Sky is that it's too easy for someone in London to Ring Sky and claim they now live in Nothern Ireland. If sport wasn't blacked out the incentive for Irish and NI cards in mainland UK would be much higher. This is the huge flaw in ANY card rather than transmission limited service.

About 55% will get RTE , TG4 and TV3 from mix of mainly Clermont Carn and Holyhill which dramatically increase power into N.I. after ASO. There will also be some reception in N.I. from Monaghan, Truskmore, Cairn Hill (Longford) and some other Donegal sites in Northern edge and southern part of the county.

So I think it's less likely.

Also almost all, or perhaps all of N.I. will be able to get Saorsat. That can't have RTE sport blacked out. Ballycastle area is the worst signal.

Souriau

Does anyone known the transmission power for this RTE Mini-Mux?

Peter Rhea

It's mentioned in the OP of this thread & also here over 2 months ago.

Transmission power is only part of the story; the transmission mode & code rate used should make the signal very robust.

There's nothing new in this thread apart from speculation on the channel to be used at Brougher Mtn.

The Cush

The latest information from Ofcom regarding Ch36 is that it's planned as a single nationwide SFN from 78 of 80 sites excluding Brougher Mt and Limavady due to its proximity to the Republic of Ireland.

In parallel, a Layer 9 plan based on the use of just channel 36 was devised using 78 of the 80 primary sites. The sites at Limavady and Brougher Mountain, in Northern Ireland, were excluded because of their proximity to the land border with the Republic of Ireland.

Digifriendly

watty wrote: »

The issue on Sky is that it's too easy for someone in London to Ring Sky and claim they now live in Nothern Ireland. If sport wasn't blacked out the incentive for Irish and NI cards in mainland UK would be much higher. This is the huge flaw in ANY card rather than transmission limited service.

About 55% will get RTE , TG4 and TV3 from mix of mainly Clermont Carn and Holyhill which dramatically increase power into N.I. after ASO. There will also be some reception in N.I. from Monaghan, Truskmore, Cairn Hill (Longford) and some other Donegal sites in Northern edge and southern part of the county.

So I think it's less likely.

Also almost all, or perhaps all of N.I. will be able to get Saorsat. That can't have RTE sport blacked out. Ballycastle area is the worst signal.

Thanks for that. Ballycastle is indeed a black spot being in a 'bowl' as it were. I think there was a temporary deflector providing RTE to the town some years ago but this was soon shut down. AFAIK the town of Larne is also a black spot and Whitehead just down the coast suffers from analogue co-channel problems from Clermont Carn due to local relay which can also affect viewers across the lough in Bangor who want to watch RTE from CC.

ardmacha

AFAIK the town of Larne is also a black spot

In more ways than one.

Sponge Bob

RTE will have black spots down south where Infill Transmission will be required seeing as Saorsat won't work, eg Leenane Valley in Galway. The Infills could be Saorsat fed. They should order another mini infill for Ballycastle while they are at it.

icdg

ardmacha wrote: »

In more ways than one.

We might keep the discussion to television please - comments like this have NO place on this forum.

Ronnie Raygun

Nothing to do with skin colour ...

Mike 1972

Brougher Mountain seems a strange choice as opposed to Limavady (Could be wrong but Im guessing most people in the Borougher Service area would have reasonably good reception of ar least one RoI TX ) on the other hand maybe there are frequency availability issues at Limavady ?

Surely Saorsat is still an option in places like Larne and Ballycastle ?

The Cush

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Brougher Mountain seems a strange choice as opposed to Limavady (Could be wrong but Im guessing most people in the Borougher Service area would have reasonably good reception of ar least one RoI TX ) on the other hand maybe there are frequency availability issues at Limavady ?

Limavady was originally one of the sites planned using Ch48 (20kW) but no longer required according to an Ofcom document - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75595269

lawhec

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Brougher Mountain seems a strange choice as opposed to Limavady (Could be wrong but Im guessing most people in the Borougher Service area would have reasonably good reception of ar least one RoI TX )

RTÉNL's Saorview coverage map shows some significant holes in coverage in Omagh and Enniskillen which would make up a fair portion of Brougher's service area, so that's probably the reason.
If the mini-mux is transmitted with a 2kW ERP from Brougher with the transmission mode described, then if all other things being equal the coverage area of this mini-mux should be equal to the planned 20kW PSB muxs on the same site, if not slightly better.

Digifriendly

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Nothing to do with skin colour ...

I lived in Larne town for 5 years and main problem was TV reception. We arrived with a 625 line set from Belfast in 1973 and from getting 3 crystal clear channels we ended up with just BBC2 which was relayed then from local transmitter. Remember trying to watch Wimbledon through the snow on BBC1! After a number of aerial checks we had to finally invest in a dual standard set to get decent BBC1 and UTV 405 line from Black Mountain. AFAIK the full transition to 625 lines for the town didn't come until late 1970's. Pretty sure Freeview is still difficult to receive for many in the town today. Interestingly there are very few aerials pointing towards Scotland in Larne.

Mr. Rabbit

Digifriendly wrote: »

I lived in Larne town for 5 years and main problem was TV reception. We arrived with a 625 line set from Belfast in 1973 and from getting 3 crystal clear channels we ended up with just BBC2 which was relayed then from local transmitter. Remember trying to watch Wimbledon through the snow on BBC1! After a number of aerial checks we had to finally invest in a dual standard set to get decent BBC1 and UTV 405 line from Black Mountain. AFAIK the full transition to 625 lines for the town didn't come until late 1970's. Pretty sure Freeview is still difficult to receive for many in the town today. Interestingly there are very few aerials pointing towards Scotland in Larne.

TV reception in Larne should be fine post DSO, although the transmitter at Craigy Hill will be Freeview Lite.

From what I can gather, some higher areas of the town can receive Freeview from Divis, even now,. Millbrook and the parts of Inver for example.

L1011

icdg wrote: »

We might keep the racism away from this forum, please.

"black Protestant"s are generally Caucasian...

Digifriendly

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

TV reception in Larne should be fine post DSO, although the transmitter at Craigy Hill will be Freeview Lite.

From what I can gather, some higher areas of the town can receive Freeview from Divis, even now,. Millbrook and the parts of Inver for example.

You're absolutely right - those on higher ground e.g. Craigy Hill get excellent reception from Belfast and Millbrook would be similar. By Inver if you mean near the football ground it might be a bit hit and miss. Unfortunately when I lived in Larne I lived beside the bowling green on the coast road and reception from Divis was poor. Nowadays with Sky/Freesat etc reception issues are not as important as in those pre- satellite days.

Mr. Rabbit

Digifriendly wrote: »

You're absolutely right - those on higher ground e.g. Craigy Hill get excellent reception from Belfast and Millbrook would be similar. By Inver if you mean near the football ground it might be a bit hit and miss. Unfortunately when I lived in Larne I lived beside the bowling green on the coast road and reception from Divis was poor. Nowadays with Sky/Freesat etc reception issues are not as important as in those pre- satellite days.

Was thinking of the higher parts of Inver digifriendly, but you are right. Divis is probably hopeless in the middle of the town at sea level.

Not sure how good Darvel is (now that they've switched and increased power), but it's the only way people can get terrestrial digital TV further up the coast (i,e, Ballygally, Drain's Bay etc.) or so I've been told. Divis should also be much better post DSO.

I worked in Premier Power (Ballylumford) for 13 years and I'm now involved with the community radio project (Chaine FM) where I do a bit of presenting, so I'm quite familiar with the town.

icdg

I don't care what the basis of the comment was. It has no place on this forum and there will be a five-day ban for the next person who talks about something other than television in this thread. And the thread will be closed.

Mr. Rabbit

Surely Saorsat is still an option in places like Larne and Ballycastle ?

Are there currently any Stellite installers in the province geared up for Saorsat ? I would suspect not and I would think very few would be au fait with the technical issues involved i.e. LNB F's, spot beams, diseqc switches etc.

I still say it's a pity a limited service isn't available on Freesat for NI viewers, but I know suggesting that will start some on this forum going on and on about rights issues etc.

I suspect that most viewers in the province that don't have access to either Saorview or the NI mini mux will simply put up with the Sky subscription service. Saorsat wil probably be more hassle than it's worth for most people up here.

The Cush

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I still say it's a pity a limited service isn't available on Freesat for NI viewers, but I know suggesting that will start some on this forum going on and on about rights issues etc.

Peter, no point repeating all that again

Can I suggest you post the question to RTÉNL's Saorview:Brian over in his thread eventhough you already know their reasoning on this via RTÉ's Conor Hayes's discussion with the Oireachtas Communications Committee in July 2010.

Mr. Rabbit

The Cush wrote: »

Peter, no point repeating all that again

Can I suggest you post the question to RTÉNL's Saorview:Brian over in his thread eventhough you already know their reasoning on this via RTÉ's Conor Hayes's discussion with the Oireachtas Communications Committee in July 2010.

I know cush. It's just a pity Freesat isn't an option.

Looking at houses around here, at least 90% have satellite dishes. I'd imagine most are probably for Sky so places such as Larne and Ballycastle will probably view RTE that way, and simply not bother with the hassle of Saorsat if they've no access to either Saorview or the mini mux.

Sam Russell

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I know cush. It's just a pity Freesat isn't an option.

Looking at houses around here, at least 90% have satellite dishes. I'd imagine most are probably for Sky so places such as Larne and Ballycastle will probably view RTE that way, and simply not bother with the hassle of Saorsat if they've no access to either Saorview or the mini mux.

More importantly, will anyone tell them about Saorsat? If you don't know, you cannot go!

watty

How many people want RTE or TG4?
Only one of my relatives is interested. The rest are not interested and don't listen RTE Radio or watch RTE1 TV on Sky (They all have Sky). The "interested" relative gets the Irish channels via Virgin Media Cable.

Digifriendly

watty wrote: »

How many people want RTE or TG4?
Only one of my relatives is interested. The rest are not interested and don't listen RTE Radio or watch RTE1 TV on Sky (They all have Sky). The "interested" relative gets the Irish channels via Virgin Media Cable.

If you're a sports fan esp. rugby like me both RTE and TG4 are an important addition to UK channels. As regards TV3 well that's another matter altogether.

Mr. Rabbit

watty wrote: »

How many people want RTE or TG4?
Only one of my relatives is interested. The rest are not interested and don't listen RTE Radio or watch RTE1 TV on Sky (They all have Sky). The "interested" relative gets the Irish channels via Virgin Media Cable.

Then why are RTE and the Irish government so concerned with the rest of the UK and Europe watching it, and all those expensive rights issues ?

You've just proved my point.

Why waste €70 million on Saorsat ?

MarkK

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Then why are RTE and the Irish government so concerned with the rest of the UK and Europe watching it, and all those expensive rights issues ?

You've just proved my point.

Why waste €70 million on Saorsat ?

Ask Channel 5 why they are so interested in when RTE Broadcasts Home and Away and Neighbours?

If you are not familiar with the saga there is information here:
http://www.backtothebay.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26621

If RTE 2 went on Freesat, both those programmes and many more would have to go.
If RTE 2 stopped showing all the imported programmes where other broadcasters have UK rights there would not be much left.

watty

No, €70Million is what the Terrestrial TV costs.
Saorsat is 2% fill in and site feed backup for about 1.5M or less

So those 2% is practically free. But extra DTT sites instead could be €30M

The "rights holders" and people getting paid royalites are not interested in how many people really watch, they only care about how many could watch.

Saorsat /Ka-Sat is irrelevant. BBC and Five use Intelsat 907 for similar function to Saorsat and encrypt it. That costs more than Saorsat. It's likely if 907 fails or BBC & Five contracts ends they will contract to use spot beams on Ka-Sat and can drop the encryption. (You won't get it in most of Ireland though, but fortunately they can't drop Ku band 28E anytime soon).

NorthDown2

watty wrote: »

How many people want RTE or TG4?
Only one of my relatives is interested. The rest are not interested and don't listen RTE Radio or watch RTE1 TV on Sky (They all have Sky). The "interested" relative gets the Irish channels via Virgin Media Cable.

The sports rights are of interest, as well as programmes about this part of the world, the recent series on Ulster Railways on TG4 being an example.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

How many people want RTE or TG4?

Most people I know in Tyrone and Fermanagh are interested for various reasons and have been viewing while they can since a 405 line service powered up at Truskmore. It's been a f***ing nightmare listening to family and friends tell me stories that they've heard from a friend of a friend about how they lose their RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 when analogue is turned off, thinking they'll have to subscribe to Sky and so on.
The current headache going around is those viewers who use Truskmore to view RTÉ1 and 2 on VHF and never really bothered with UHF now realising that they will have to get a UHF aerial to replace the VHF one for DTT reception.

Mr. Rabbit

To get back on topic, I notice Brian has dropped 36 from Brougher and is now speculating channel 30 (Brougher) 48 (Black Mountain) and 48 (Carnmoney Hill). Would 48 from both Black Mountain and Carnmoney Hill not cause problems for people in some areas with aerials for both Clermont Cairn and Divis that are diplexed ?

http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051947

Brougher Mountain at 2kW on C36 unknown channel (speculativly C30)
Black Mountain at 1kW on unknown channel (speculativly C48)
Carnmoney Hill 16w on unknown channel (speculativly C48)

Mr. Rabbit

lawhec wrote: »

Most people I know in Tyrone and Fermanagh are interested for various reasons and have been viewing while they can since a 405 line service powered up at Truskmore. It's been a f***ing nightmare listening to family and friends tell me stories that they've heard from a friend of a friend about how they lose their RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 when analogue is turned off, thinking they'll have to subscribe to Sky and so on.
The current headache going around is those viewers who use Truskmore to view RTÉ1 and 2 on VHF and never really bothered with UHF now realising that they will have to get a UHF aerial to replace the VHF one for DTT reception.

Last time i was down in Fermanagh RTE reception from Cairn Hill was fine, and with a relatively small Aerial.

Replacing a VHF aerial with a UHF one surely wouldn't be that big a headache ?

Peter Rhea

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Would 48 from both Black Mountain and Carnmoney Hill not cause problems for people in some areas with aerials for both Clermont Cairn and Divis that are diplexed ?

If they're getting the full Saorview service from Clermont, why bother with the mini-mux?

Mr. Rabbit

Peter Rhea wrote: »

If they're getting the full Saorview service from Clermont, why bother with the mini-mux?

Possibly for the full EPG information and recording features such as series link for example ? I gather the mini mux will conform to UK Freeview standards, whereas Saorview does not. Some some recording and EPG featues on UK boxes might not work properly.

At least that's one reason that I can think of.

lawhec

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Last time i was down in Fermanagh RTE reception from Cairn Hill was fine, and with a relatively small Aerial.

Replacing a VHF aerial with a UHF one surely wouldn't be that big a headache ?

If a viewer has a VHF aerial for RTÉ and one UHF aerial only for NI channels, replacing the VHF aerial with a UHF one will require...

* Replacing the VHF aerial with a UHF one (obvious)
* Installation of a new diplexer (say UHF A/E in place of a UHF/VHF one)
* Possible replacement of masthead amp, if required (especially if a good VHF Band III only amp was used on the VHF aerial)
* The new UHF aerial may need to be at a higher position than the VHF aerial was - if the VHF aerial was above the aerial for NI TV, then it's likely to be in the same place, but each case is unique

Whatever the case, there's costs for equipment and labour to be factored in. Those who receive from Carin Hill or Holywell Hill are much more likely to be spared this headache.

Most of South Fermanagh can comfortably receive Carin Hill, but from around Enniskillen westwards Truskmore starts having more reliable coverage.

Peter Rhea

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Possibly for the full EPG information and recording features such as series link for example ? I gather the mini mux will conform to UK Freeview standards, whereas Saorview does not. Some some recording and EPG featues on UK boxes might not work properly.

At least that's one reason that I can think of.

Well, I sure hope the frequency planners go out of their way to give them the best of all worlds.

Mr. Rabbit

He's also suggested that when Clermont Cairn's restriction to the north is removed it'll only apply to RTE 1, RTE 2, and TG 4 and not the rest.

I'm sure this isn't the case and once this happens we'll get perfect reception from the whole multiplex, not just a few channels.

Isn't Truskmore subject to a similar reduction in power ?

Peter Rhea

I don't think Mr. Butterworth realises that everything is currently on 1 mux or knows anything about what form the 2nd mux will take or even the current situation with unrestricted analogue transmissions; maybe forget about him for a while.

Since this mini-mux might even prove useful in my own part of the country, I won't make any comments about northerners being more than spoiled for choice wrt FTA tv.

Mr. Rabbit

Peter Rhea wrote: »

I don't think Mr. Butterworth realises that everything is currently on 1 mux or knows anything about what form the 2nd mux will take or even the current situation with unrestricted analogue transmissions; maybe forget about him for a while.

Since this mini-mux might even prove useful in my own part of the country, I won't make any comments about northerners being more than spoiled for choice wrt FTA tv.

Also, if I remember correctly. there was also talk of possibly a fourth TV station and a radio station on the NI mux when the announcement was made.

The Cush

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Also, if I remember correctly. there was also talk of possibly a fourth TV station and a radio station on the NI mux when the announcement was made.

Did you just read my post over on ukfreetv?

The tender document fom last Nov requires the mini-mux to be capable of carrying one further TV and radio service if required, didn't see it mentioned elsewhere.

Peter Rhea

Ah, didn't read down that far last time I looked, old Briantist does have a bit of solid info so . . .

Mr. Rabbit

Did you just read my post over on ukfreetv?

Yep, just after I posted my own here

The tender document fom last Nov requires the mini-mux to be capable of carrying one further TV and radio service if required, didn't see it mentioned elsewhere

Possibly that's where I read the info.

Someone speculated it might be RTE News Now and either RTE Radio 1 or RNaG, but probably not TV3 for obvious reasons.