Did you know Irish government is in breach of constitution for years?

greimorm

Where mothers are concerned i will cut it down for short version.
No woman must work and be forced out to work due to economic reasons that will effect her home life and of the family and that will not interfere of raising of children.
Also widows will be protected in the right they are entitled to all the help.
Now this is my last thread.Feel free to check it out in our constitution.
I wonder who can pick holes in this one lol.
By her life within the home,woman give to the state a support without the common good can not be achieved,The state shall therefore endeavor that mothers should not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Where To

Bye now.

Gummy Panda

was this found on facebook?

greimorm

Gummy Panda wrote: »

was this found on facebook?

Article 41 of constitution

My name is URL

greimorm wrote: »

Article 41 of constitution

How exactly is it being breached?

AnonoBoy

Wouldn't social welfare and children's allowance be fulfilling this article?

greimorm

My name is URL wrote: »

How exactly is it being breached?

Because due to rise in living in Ireland and costs etc.. Women are forced to leave the home and work away from their children as one wage is not enough anymore?

Gran Hermano

greimorm wrote: »

Because due to rise in living in Ireland and costs etc.. Women are forced to leave the home and work away from their children as one wage is not enough anymore?

Balderdash, is the state forcing these women to have children? Is the state forcing these women to have a a set level of expenses? Last I checked contraceptives were available in this country.

If you want sprogs it's your responsibility to finance their upbringing.

lividduck

European law supercedes the deValera Constitution, and European law prohibits discrimination on grounds of gender, so the Irish Catholic Constitution, if the Op is correct, discriminates against men, so it is in breach of EU law.
Perhaps the OP is still longing for the good old days when marital rape was legal, we had the marraige bar, and a woman needed her husbands permission to open a bank account.

greimorm

lividduck wrote: »

European law supercedes the deValera Constitution, and European law prohibits discrimination on grounds of gender, so the Irish Catholic Constitution, if the Op is correct, discriminates against men, so it is in breach of EU law.
Perhaps the OP is still longing for the good old days when marital rape was legal, we had the marraige bar, and a woman needed her husbands permission to open a bank account.

Jesus i am sorry you lived in a cave,but i dont recall Ireland being that bad barr the odd freak that lives in every country in world(well some more than others ofc) .:rolleyes:

MadYaker

greimorm wrote: »

Where mothers are concerned i will cut it down for short version.
No woman must work and be forced out to work due to economic reasons that will effect her home life and of the family and that will not interfere of raising of children.
Also widows will be protected in the right they are entitled to all the help.
Now this is my last thread.Feel free to check it out in our constitution.
I wonder who can pick holes in this one lol.
By her life within the home,woman give to the state a support without the common good can not be achieved,The state shall therefore endeavor that mothers should not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Even the way you type makes you look like a child. Nevermind the dribble that you're posting.

greimorm

God people are such boring stuck in muds here :rolleyes:

Sister Assumpta

*Here are my ludicrous claims; I'm leaving before anybody proves me wrong*
/runs out door.

Sister Assumpta

lividduck wrote: »

European law supercedes the deValera Constitution

No. It. Doesn't.

Having said that, the OP is talking ****.

NoelJ

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

No. It. Doesn't.

Having said that, the OP is talking ****.

Is it not European > Irish Version of Irish Constitution > English version of Irish Constitution in Court?

greimorm

Oh sorry i forgot this is no longer AH

Zen65

greimorm wrote: »

No woman must work and be forced out to work due to economic reasons that will effect her home life and of the family and that will not interfere of raising of children.

The Articles you refer to are:

Article 41

2. 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within
the home, woman gives to the State a support without which
the common good cannot be achieved.

2. 2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that
mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to
engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the
home.

The state could not be found to be in breach of the constitution in any court of law, since we have a social welfare system which ensures that a mother can raise her children (albeit in very modest conditions) without having to work. Whether the Welfare is adequate for a particular case is a moot point since the constitution obliges nothing more than "endeavour".

As for the "neglect of their duties" ..... well there is nothing in the constitution which sets down explicitly what those duties are. You can be sure that buying her children an iPhone is not considered a duty, so raising children in poor financial circumstances is not a breach of duty.

Z

Gran Hermano

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=523822

greimorm

Zen65 wrote: »

The Articles you refer to are:



The state could not be found to be in breach of the constitution in any court of law, since we have a social welfare system which ensures that a mother can raise her children (albeit in very modest conditions) without having to work. Whether the Welfare is adequate for a particular case is a moot point since the constitution obliges nothing more than "endeavour".

As for the "neglect of their duties" ..... well there is nothing in the constitution which sets down explicitly what those duties are. You can be sure that buying her children an iPhone is not considered a duty, so raising children in poor financial circumstances is not a breach of duty.

Z

Ah you had to go and get all legal and particular dammit.It was a joke and just showing weird stuff in constitution.

Sister Assumpta

NoelJ wrote: »

Is it not European > Irish Version of Irish Constitution > English version of Irish Constitution in Court?

No. The Irish constitution is the fundamental law of the country.

If European law is found not to be compatible with the Irish constitution, then that law cannot apply to Ireland. We hold referenda in this country to amend our constitution every so often by inserting European treaties, in which case these treaties form part of the Irish constitution.

But European law can not take precedence over the Irish constitution.

greimorm

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

No. The Irish constitution is the fundamental law of the country.

If European law is found not to be compatible with the Irish constitution, then that law cannot apply to Ireland. We hold referenda in this country to amend our constitution every so often by inserting European treaties, in which case these treaties form part of the Irish constitution.

But European law can not take precedence over the Irish constitution.

Now thats a whole other thread.But thanks as i do hate when people think EU law has power over Irish law.Luckily it does not or this country would be in a worse state of affairs.

I just thanked that because it was so intelligent

greimorm

Gran Hermano wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=523822

lol very funny

GowlBag

Jesus my eyes are bleeding after reading the OP. It's real fückin painful to read broken English. OP are you a native English speaker? If so, did you find your education in a lucky bag?

Cian92

greimorm wrote: »

Now thats a whole other thread.But thanks as i do hate when people think EU law has power over Irish law.Luckily it does not or this country would be in a worse state of affairs.

I just thanked that because it was so intelligent

EU law does actually supercede all forms of Irish Law, including constitutional law. I forget which particular court case by the European Court of Justice found that.

greimorm

GowlBag wrote: »

Jesus my eyes are bleeding after reading the OP. It's real fückin painful to read broken English. OP are you a native English speaker? If so, did you find your education in a lucky bag?

Sorry copy and pastes from the Irish constitution convey to you a education from an lucky bag ? :P

Sister Assumpta

Cian92 wrote: »

EU law does actually supercede all forms of Irish Law, including constitutional law. I forget which particular court case by the European Court of Justice found that.

European law does not supercede Irish constitutional law. The only time European law ever enjoys parity with our constitution is when we insert it into our constitution.

There was no such court judgement.

Naomi00

lividduck wrote: »

European law supercedes the deValera Constitution, and European law prohibits discrimination on grounds of gender, so the Irish Catholic Constitution, if the Op is correct, discriminates against men, so it is in breach of EU law.
Perhaps the OP is still longing for the good old days when marital rape was legal, we had the marraige bar, and a woman needed her husbands permission to open a bank account.

Where did you get that from?

As far I as remember it's called Bunreacht na hÉireann..

dxhound2005

Cian92 wrote: »

EU law does actually supercede all forms of Irish Law, including constitutional law. I forget which particular court case by the European Court of Justice found that.

There is an easy solution for that. The country could just leave the EU.

GowlBag

An education

greimorm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is an easy solution for that. The country could just leave the EU.

AH sure there will be no EU in few years luckily lol

themadchef

greimorm wrote: »

The state shall therefore endeavor that mothers should not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

The days of scrubbing the door step are over Mrs.

I'm out working to give my kids a better life. The state havent a pot to píss in and neither will my kids if it's up to them.

I love my job, i love my kids and Godammit i love having a few bob for the the state to give the mothers who decide to stay at home, scrubbing their fúcking door steps.

greimorm

themadchef wrote: »

The days of scrubbing the door step are over Mrs.

I'm out working to give my kids a better life. The state havent a pot to píss in and neither will my kids if it's up to them.

I love my job, i love my kids and Godammit i love having a few bob for the the state to give the mothers who decide to stay at home, scrubbing their fúcking door steps.

lollllllllllllll shut up you!!! you are running it :mad::D

themadchef

greimorm wrote: »

lollllllllllllll shut up you!!! you are running it :mad::D

But i bought a smock and everything...:p

Run_to_da_hills

lividduck wrote: »

European law supercedes the deValera Constitution, and European law prohibits discrimination on grounds of gender, so the Irish Catholic Constitution, if the Op is correct, discriminates against men, so it is in breach of EU law.
Perhaps the OP is still longing for the good old days when marital rape was legal, we had the marraige bar, and a woman needed her husbands permission to open a bank account.

Thanks again to all those that voted Lisbon.

lividduck

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

No. The Irish constitution is the fundamental law of the country.

If European law is found not to be compatible with the Irish constitution, then that law cannot apply to Ireland. We hold referenda in this country to amend our constitution every so often by inserting European treaties, in which case these treaties form part of the Irish constitution.

But European law can not take precedence over the Irish constitution.

Sorry but you are wrong , the legal position is:
Where National law is found to be in conflict with European law then the court shall disapply national law".
They actually created the legal term disapply meaning european law has primacy over the Irish Constitution. That is the reason we have so many referendums here over European treaties, because they in effect change the constitution.
if you are in any doubt ask a lawyer which law has precedence in Ireland.

lividduck

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

European law does not supercede Irish constitutional law. The only time European law ever enjoys parity with our constitution is when we insert it into our constitution.

There was no such court judgement.

The Judgement is Simmenthal verus The European Commission.
The ruling states:
“Any provision of a national legal system and any legislative, administrative or judicial practice which might impair the effectiveness of Community law by withholding from the national court having jurisdiction to apply such law the power to do everything necessary at the moment of its application to set aside national legal provisions which might prevent Community rules from having full force and effect are incompatible with those requirements which are the very essence of Community law“.
An amendment to Article 29 of the Irish Constitution establishes the supremacy of EU law in Ireland. Article 29 endeavours to reconcile EU and Irish law by authorising enactments of laws and adoption of measures which are necessitated by EU membership

Sister Assumpta

lividduck wrote: »

Sorry but you are wrong , the legal position is:
Where National law is found to be in conflict with European law then the court shall disapply national law".

Do you understand the difference between constitutional law and national statutory law?

Because that's sort of important here. I am saying that European law does not supercede Irish constitutional law.

As I said, there are some instances whereby we have chosen to amend our constitution in order to give effect to European Treaties at Irish constitutional level. That's clearly not an example of European law taking precedence, it's an example of our decision to amend our constitution, which we only do when we see fit.

That is the reason we have so many referendums here over European treaties, because they in effect change the constitution.

These treaties form part of the Irish constitution when they are ratified by plebiscite.

You seem to be constantly getting mixed up between Irish legislation and Irish constitutional law, and even using the terms interchangeably. I'm not sure why you're doing this, but you shouldn't be doing this.

dxhound2005

lividduck wrote: »

Sorry but you are wrong , the legal position is:
Where National law is found to be in conflict with European law then the court shall disapply national law".
They actually created the legal term disapply meaning european law has primacy over the Irish Constitution. That is the reason we have so many referendums here over European treaties, because they in effect change the constitution.
if you are in any doubt ask a lawyer which law has precedence in Ireland.

I'm not sure who the "they" you are referring to here are but they did not create the legal term dissaply. Here is an example of it's use in an English case from 1991 which was not concerned with any EU legislation.

The Judge, giving judgment for the plaintiffs, concluded that the transactions were "contracts for differences" within paragraph 9 of Schedule 1 to the Financial Services Act 1986,1 and rights under them were therefore "investments" within the meaning of section 1(1). He accordingly held that the transactions constituted an activity falling within paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 in respect of which section 63 of the Act operated to disapply the Gaming Acts 1845 and 1892.

lividduck

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between constitutional law and national statutory law?

Because that's sort of important here. I am saying that European law does not supercede Irish constitutional law.

As I said, there are some instances whereby we have chosen to amend our constitution in order to give effect to European Treaties at Irish constitutional level. That's clearly not an example of European law taking precedence, it's an example of our decision to amend our constitution, which we only do when we see fit.

These treaties form part of the Irish constitution when they are ratified by plebiscite.

You seem to be constantly getting mixed up between Irish legislation and Irish constitutional law, and even using the terms interchangeably. I'm not sure why you're doing this, but you shouldn't be doing this.

The Constitution is at the apex of Ireland’s legal system. Legislation, Governmental and administrative decisions and practice may be reviewed against the Constitution for compliance.
The Constitution provides however, that it will not invalidate any acts or measures which are necessitated by membership of the European Union or Communities. Thus Community law takes precedence over all national laws including the Constitution

Sister Assumpta

lividduck wrote: »

The Constitution is at the apex of Ireland’s legal system. Legislation, Governmental and administrative decisions and practice may be reviewed against the Constitution for compliance.
The Constitution provides however, that it will not invalidate any acts or measures which are necessitated by membership of the European Union or Communities. Thus Community law takes precedence over all national laws including the Constitution

You are simply wrong.

The Constitution provides that where both statutory legal systems are in conflict with one another, EU law shall take precedence. Our constitution does not, however, debase itself by submitting itself to a lower order of precedence than either Irish or European statutory law.EU law itself, as provided for in the constitution, gives precedence to the Irish constitution.

You need to read up on this. Do you seriously think that European law can simply overwrite Irish constitutional provisions? If so, I suggest you speak about this to someone else. That's a level of ignorance I find totally exasperating in light of how well educated Irish people ought to be on their constitution following on from the 2008 and 2009 referenda.

lividduck

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

You are simply wrong.

The Constitution provides that where both statutory legal systems are in conflict with one another, EU law shall take precedence. Our constitution does not, however, debase itself by submitting itself to a lower order of precedence than either Irish or European statutory law.EU law itself, as provided for in the constitution, gives precedence to the Irish constitution.

You need to read up on this. Do you seriously think that European law can simply overwrite Irish constitutional provisions? If so, I suggest you speak about this to someone else. That's a level of ignorance I find totally exasperating in light of how well educated Irish people ought to be on their constitution following on from the 2008 and 2009 referenda.

Sorry Assupta, but i took that quote directly from a Government website, that view is the view of:
The Bar Association,
The Law Department at UCD, UCC, and UD
The European Commission,
The European Judicial Network, amongst others.
" One of the most important aspects of the European Union is that its legislation is superior to all national legislation. This means that European law is supreme. Nothing in the Constitution of Ireland nor any of our national laws can override or take precedence over an EU law".(http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/eu_law/european_laws.html

Logical Fallacy

greimorm wrote: »

Because due to rise in living in Ireland and costs etc.. Women are forced to leave the home and work away from their children as one wage is not enough anymore?

Actually, you have that completely ass backwards. Due to the ability and freedom of women being able to choose careers and actually earn so cash, a lot of homes changed from 1 earner to 2 earners.

This meant the average income of a household was up...so the price of everything went up as well.

greimorm

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

You are simply wrong.

The Constitution provides that where both statutory legal systems are in conflict with one another, EU law shall take precedence. Our constitution does not, however, debase itself by submitting itself to a lower order of precedence than either Irish or European statutory law.EU law itself, as provided for in the constitution, gives precedence to the Irish constitution.

You need to read up on this. Do you seriously think that European law can simply overwrite Irish constitutional provisions? If so, I suggest you speak about this to someone else. That's a level of ignorance I find totally exasperating in light of how well educated Irish people ought to be on their constitution following on from the 2008 and 2009 referenda.

I think you might find its proportional of wishful thinking.As they hold little regard for the Irish constitution that gave them the lives they have today, Unfortunately they would sell the country in a heart beat.Like government counter parts are doing everyday.Under this new law would i be in trouble for making such a claim.If so please tell me so i may edit it before it locks in here lol

greimorm

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Actually, you have that completely ass backwards. Due to the ability and freedom of women being able to choose careers and actually earn so cash, a lot of homes changed from 1 earner to 2 earners.

This meant the average income of a household was up...so the price of everything went up as well.

You can never win sure you cant:(,It was better when mothers stayed at home,but in new world ofc fathers also staying home and whip some manners into their kids.There was less drug abuse less crime and less brats roaming the streets.
So if we make all women or men by your definition which ever wishes to stay home stay home then the household income levels will fall, and we will go back to normal living of yester year.
P.S from my childhood i remember it a case of mother's had to go out and work not wanting to leave the kids but having to pass their rearing onto a childminder unfortunately.

Sister Assumpta

lividduck wrote: »

Nothing in the Constitution of Ireland nor any of our national laws can override or take precedence over an EU law".(http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/eu_law/european_laws.html

This is a very clear example of the truism that "a little information is a dangerous thing".

Why do you think we hold referenda in this country?

It is because our constitution guarantees the constitutional legitimacy of European law as it presently stands with respect to the Irish constitution. Any material or significant changes to the European treaties (which themselves admit the precedence of the Irish constitution) or the introduction of new treaties over-riding previous EU treaty provisions must be ratified by a popular referendum in this jurisdiction.

In other words, our constitution says "everything that the treaties have provided for is constitutional at present". It does not hold that "everything the treaties will ever provide for is constitutional and unconditional". You must understand that EU derives its importance from the Irish constitution, and not vice versa. You should perhaps start a thread in this on the legal forum, and they will clarify this matter if you don;t take my word for it.

lividduck

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

This is a very clear example of the truism that "a little information is a dangerous thing".

Why do you think we hold referenda in this country?

It is because our constitution guarantees the constitutional legitimacy of European law as it presently stands with respect to the Irish constitution. Any material or significant changes to the European treaties (which themselves admit the precedence of the Irish constitution) or the introduction of new treaties over-riding previous EU treaty provisions must be ratified by a popular referendum in this jurisdiction.

In other words, our constitution says "everything that the treaties have provided for is constitutional at present". It does not hold that "everything the treaties will ever provide for is constitutional and unconditional". You must understand that EU derives its importance from the Irish constitution, and not vice versa. You should perhaps start a thread in this on the legal forum, and they will clarify this matter if you don;t take my word for it.

I think we at risk of becoming overly pedantic at this stage.
I am not a barrister or a lawyer, nor despite your accusations am I ignorant.
I have taken my "little learning" (Alexander Pope) as you snidley put it, from various sources that any rational lay person would seek such information from.
What we can both perhaps agree on is that the OP is up the wall with their interpratation of our national constitution, and that our national laws, including our constitution are now greatly influenced by European law.

Logical Fallacy

greimorm wrote: »

You can never win sure you cant:(,It was better when mothers stayed at home,but in new world ofc fathers also staying home and whip some manners into their kids.There was less drug abuse less crime and less brats roaming the streets.
So if we make all women or men by your definition which ever wishes to stay home stay home then the household income levels will fall, and we will go back to normal living of yester year.
P.S from my childhood i remember it a case of mother's had to go out and work not wanting to leave the kids but having to pass their rearing onto a childminder unfortunately.

Wow...looking forward to seeing what you are completely wrong about next.

Sister Assumpta

Oh I never suggested you were ignorant, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I am just saying that the information you linked to is incomplete. This stuff is terrifically boring, and I don't blame anyone for simply reading summaries of the situation - but in this case the devil is in the detail.

And in this case, the detail is Crotty vs An Taoiseach.
http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/1987/1.html

Crotty held that if at any time the competencies of the European Union and its institutions are to be extended in a material way, then this must be ratified by referendum.

Yes, EU treaties cannot be held to be unconstitutional at present.

But if those treaties are revised or if new treaties come about which compromise Irish sovereignty in a way that was not previously anticipated in Bunreacht na h-Eireann, then the issue must be ratified by plebiscite.

Therefore, let me revise an incorrect statement I made earlier where I said that the Irish constitution takes precedence over EU law (a simplistic and misleading statement on my part). Instead, it is true to say that the Irish constitution takes precedence over any changes to European law in a way that impacts upon the provisions enshrined in the Irish constitution.

lividduck

Sister Assumpta wrote: »

Oh I never suggested you were ignorant, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I am just saying that the information you linked to is incomplete. This stuff is terrifically boring, and I don't blame anyone for simply reading summaries of the situation - but in this case the devil is in the detail.

And in this case, the detail is Crotty vs An Taoiseach.
http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/1987/1.html

Crotty held that if at any time the competencies of the European Union and its institutions are to be extended in a material way, then this must be ratified by referendum.

Yes, EU treaties cannot be held to be unconstitutional at present.

But if those treaties are revised or if new treaties come about which compromise Irish sovereignty in a way that was not previously anticipated in Bunreacht na h-Eireann, then the issue must be ratified by plebiscite.

Therefore, let me revise an incorrect statement I made earlier where I said that the Irish constitution takes precedence over EU law (a simplistic and misleading statement on my part). Instead, it is true to say that the Irish constitution takes precedence over any changes to European law in a way that impacts upon the provisions enshrined in the Irish constitution.

It is seriously complicated stuff alright. It's just a pity that so many people have no understanding at all of the sources of law and thus get bogged down in trading misinformation instead of listening and learning. Your point is well made and has increased my, albeit, limited understanding of the subject.
BTW the OP is still a nut.

micropig

The constitution is outdated & archaic,

Do men have the same rights?
Weighted sexism towards women

Doc Ruby

lividduck wrote: »

Thus Community law takes precedence over all national laws including the Constitution

No, it doesn't.

What did you think all those referendums were about?