Indo article on Welfare

Dannyboy83

Polish waitress packs in job for 'good life' on Irish welfare
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/polish-waitress-packs-in-job-for-good-life-on-irish-welfare-3005781.html

Last night a Labour senator based in Donegal said the claims were 'outrageous'.

Senator Jimmy Harte told the Irish Independent: "This woman is doing an enormous disservice to the Polish community in Co Donegal and to other hard-working non-nationals.

"She has clearly taken advantage of Irish hospitality. I would like to see her go back to Poland and if we can find out who she is, I'd gladly pay for her flight home."

He added: "Apart from her clear intent to take advantage of our social welfare system, to describe her home as a s***hole just adds insult to injury."

Why is Jimmy Harte outraged that someone has taken the sweet deal they were offered?
Should he not be more outraged that the sweet deal can be offered in the first place?

Apart from finding the comments about having her sent back to Poland mildly offensive and a bit "dim" for a senator (the Irish hospitality bit especially irks me - it's not like we hand out Social Welfare willy nilly - you do have to actually qualify) - I don't see why she is considered a disgrace....

She made less money by working her butt off, than she can make by living on welfare.

Would it not be more appropriate for him to be outraged by the fact that she makes less money from working than from not working?

Tipp Man

Listen we won't haven't anything bad said about "the poorest in our society who are feeling the brunt of these austerity measures" (Vincent Browne every weekday night)

RichardAnd

The spindo has reached a new low. That article is of atrocious quality. What journalist would actually consider the word "s**thole" as being an acceptable for an article, censored or nay?

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if this rant was based on entirely fabricated material.

Dannyboy83

RichardAnd wrote: »

The spindo has reached a new low. That article is of atrocious quality. What journalist would actually consider the word "s**thole" as being an acceptable for an article, censored or nay?

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if this rant was based on entirely fabricated material.

I know, it was a friend sent to me and I actually had to scroll up to check I wasn't reading the Daily Mail. Thinly veiled racism at best.

Only for the fact that they have quoted the senator, I would have just assumed it was a complete fabrication.

RichardAnd

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I know, it was a friend sent to me and I actually had to scroll up to check I wasn't reading the Daily Mail. Thinly veiled racism at best.

Only for the fact that they have quoted the senator, I would have just assumed it was a complete fabrication.

It still sounds very dodgy to me. If such a woman exists, wouldn't she have the common sense to keep her easy ride to herself?

Regardless, it seems to me that this "article" is an effort to paint unemployment as a cosy place to be. Stirring up the ire of a confused and angry populace is what I ascribe it to.

stargazer 68

RichardAnd wrote: »

It still sounds very dodgy to me. If such a woman exists, wouldn't she have the common sense to keep her easy ride to herself?

.

From what I know the article was published in a Polish newspaper originally and the Indo picked it up.

Kinski

"Welfare tourism"? Applicants for social welfare payments in this country must satisfy "habitual residence" conditions, so you can't just pack in a job in Poland, board the next flight to Dublin, and sign-on. This all smells fishy...have Jimmy Harte and the Indo just been trolled?

stargazer 68

Kinski wrote: »

"Welfare tourism"? Applicants for social welfare payments in this country must satisfy "habitual residence" conditions, so you can't just pack in a job in Poland, board the next flight to Dublin, and sign-on. This all smells fishy...have Jimmy Harte and the Indo just been trolled?

She didn't as far as I can see - the job she packed in was here in Ireland so she didnt need to satisfy habitual residence if she had been working.

spank_inferno

She paid her taxes she'll take what she can.

Better her than the many Irish nationals who have never worked, suckling at the states tit from cradle to grave.


(also... agree it was terrible article)

Kinski

Dovies wrote: »

She didn't as far as I can see - the job she packed in was here in Ireland so she didnt need to satisfy habitual residence if she had been working.

It's not clear at all from the article. If she was earning less than the weekly dole payment as a waitress she must have been working part-time, in which case she could have been eligible for supplementary welfare payments - which would have meant more money than she's allegedly getting now, with plenty of time leftover for surfing and watching the sunrise (but, though it should go without saying, having spent much of my childhood on Inishowen, those beaches are far from "Hawaiian"!:p)

But if that is what she's doing, then it's misleading to call it "welfare tourism." That just creates a false impression that people can show up in Ireland and go straight on the dole.

Dannyboy83

Original article here:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://wyborcza.pl/1,75480,11028074,Polak_w_Irlandii__Kocham_cie__bezrobocie.html%3Fas%3D1&usg=ALkJrhhAF6Y2g-GX-JIuF28zZO2p1NSyfA

reddit material here
http://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/p6028/polish_waitress_packs_in_job_for_good_life_on/c3msb3a

n97 mini

^ as alluded to here, the news the Indo is reporting on is not that there's a foreign national enjoying Irish dole, it's that it's being reported in newpapers in other countries.

Not really surprising. I'm sure it's reported in lots of countries.

Count Dooku

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Original article here:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://wyborcza.pl/1,75480,11028074,Polak_w_Irlandii__Kocham_cie__bezrobocie.html%3Fas%3D1&usg=ALkJrhhAF6Y2g-GX-JIuF28zZO2p1NSyfA

And how they react to people around? - I have never met with unfavorable comments. Maybe it's because it takes a lot of Irish benefits. And a friend told me once that he prefers that her taxes were going for me than the various assholes from Dublin.

dirtyghettokid

i do not find the independent a credible source. upon reading the polish article translated to english, i can clearly see that she did not call the place in donegal a **** hole - she said that SOME find it to be a **** hole. her next sentence said that the place was beautiful like a postcard. whether she is abusing the system or not, remains to be seen, but i am disappointed that our media twists things to manipulate the minds of so many people who cannot think for themselves.

Manach

Not commenting directly on the article, but it is getting a lot of airplay - my query is what media sources do people, who have issue with the Irish Independant, think are reliable primary sources?

Dannyboy83

Manach wrote: »

Not commenting directly on the article, but it is getting a lot of airplay - my query is what media sources do people, who have issue with the Irish Independant, think are reliable primary sources?

That's a good question.

Well, in the last few weeks

TheJournal were deleted off my phone over this:
misrepresentation of Michael Noonan's comment on emigration

David McWilliams was deleted off my RSS Feeds over this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76785463

The Indo have become the Irish equivalent of the Daily Mail, tho not as bad as TheJournal, who are the Irish equivalent of Fox News imo.

The Irish Times I find way too biased on the left wing.

Usually, when I want to try find out the simple, basic fact - I find myself either relying on this forum or perhaps using TheExaminer.

RichardAnd

Manach wrote: »

Not commenting directly on the article, but it is getting a lot of airplay - my query is what media sources do people, who have issue with the Irish Independant, think are reliable primary sources?

It's best to read from a variety of sources before drawing conclusions. The independent can be used as a source but an abundance twisted articles designed to work people into an emotional reaction is not a sign of good journalism.

Chucky the tree

This isn't the first time Jimmy Harte has shared his opinion on foreign people claiming benefits.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfgbididauid/rss2/

I'd also like to point out that most of the information in the article is complete lies as well.

dirtyghettokid

it's hard to find any source credible to be honest. they are all writing to earn their wage at the end of the day, whether they they need to lie to sell or not.

femur61

Manach wrote: »

Not commenting directly on the article, but it is getting a lot of airplay - my query is what media sources do people, who have issue with the Irish Independant, think are reliable primary sources?

Thats what I'd like to know as well. Only two daily broadsheets with national news so where else are people suppossed to get their information?

RichardAnd

femur61 wrote: »

Thats what I'd like to know as well. Only two daily broadsheets with national news so where else are people suppossed to get their information?

With the ubiquity of the modern internet, we theoretically have access to the sum of all human knowledge. Given that, to rely upon RTE and our assorted selection of rags is just a folly. There is a wealth of information available from a smattering of sources, one only needs to look.

rodento

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

i do not find the independent a credible source. upon reading the polish article translated to english, i can clearly see that she did not call the place in donegal a **** hole - she said that SOME find it to be a **** hole. her next sentence said that the place was beautiful like a postcard. whether she is abusing the system or not, remains to be seen, but i am disappointed that our media twists things to manipulate the minds of so many people who cannot think for themselves.

Plenty places in Donegal can be discribed as are complete ****holes even though the countryside around them are nice:rolleyes:

antoobrien

The Polish ambassador has weighed in on the indo, basically saying what a lot of people on here have been saying.

One except

facts presented in the Polish article in a very selective and subjective manner. The subject ‘Magda’ states in the Polish article: “I have a big problem with being unemployed, I don’t want to live at the State’s expense and for that reason I use this assistance to allow me start up my own business”. I believe that this is the sentence that best summarizes the context of the original article and it is decidedly unfortunate that it has been omitted in your article.

In terms of her describing her life as ‘Hawaiian Massage’ , at no stage in this article does she make such a statement. What she actually says is that she has completed a FÁS course in Hawaiian Massage and that she’s planning to open a massage business next year. I think you can agree that this misrepresentation completely changes the tone of the article.

She also never describes the place where she lives as s***hole (in fact she loves it and is very passionate about it), she merely refers to other people saying that.

Dannyboy83

I'm not trying to over-dramatize the situation here, but when you stand back from this and think how it must look to outsiders....
.
.
...the Polish Amabassador has to write an article to defend the community he represents against a thinly veiled racist attack by one of our National Newspapers - an attack which was largely fabricated.

I'm assuming the Indo will have to print some kind of retraction/apology?

Just think of the reaction at home if the Melbourne Enquirer printed a similar article about Irish people in Australia...

n97 mini

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

...the Polish Amabassador has to write an article to defend the community he represents against a thinly veiled racist attack by one of our National Newspapers - an attack which was largely fabricated.

Polish Ambassador wrote:

I cannot say that people like Magda don’t exist – they do in every society and community around the world, including the Polish community in Ireland. On the basis of my personal experience with so many Poles living here, I can assure you that people like Magda constitute a very small minority of Poles in Ireland, and are in no way representative of the entire Irish – based Polish community.

Sounds like he's embarrassed too.

I know some fantastic Polish people here, people I would consider friends. Hard working, ambitious, honest -- just like the Ambassador says. I also know Polish people here who appear to be holidaying on social welfare.

antoobrien

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

...the Polish Amabassador has to write an article to defend the community he represents against a thinly veiled racist attack by one of our National Newspapers - an attack which was largely fabricated.

Having read the article, my first impression was that this looks like a hatchet job but not entirely fabricated (they left themselves seriously open to liable by naming a polish publication if this was totally made up).

There's some facts I'd like to know about this e.g. has this person ever held a job here, which would help to provide some balance to the story.

not yet

spank_inferno wrote: »

She paid her taxes she'll take what she can.

Better her than the many Irish nationals who have never worked, suckling at the states tit from cradle to grave.


(also... agree it was terrible article)

How the fcuk do you know she paid her taxes, If the article is quoting her correctly, she is getting more on welfare then when she was working...........

If this is the case she wouldn't have been earning enough to pay tax.
It amazes me that the first port of call when something like this crops up is...what about the irish doing this,as if that makes it right.

Godge

antoobrien wrote: »

The Polish ambassador has weighed in on the indo, basically saying what a lot of people on here have been saying.

One except

What I can't understand is what Fas are doing running a course on Hawaiian massage in Donegal????

I mean there couldn't really be any sustainable long-term demand for 20 Hawaiian measseurs in Donegal, could there? The size of the population couldn't support that as well as other masseurs.

Dannyboy83

not yet wrote: »

How the fcuk do you know she paid her taxes, If the article is quoting her correctly, she is getting more on welfare then when she was working...........

If this is the case she wouldn't have been earning enough to pay tax.
It amazes me that the first port of call when something like this crops up is...what about the irish doing this,as if that makes it right.

I assume you mean income tax?
You would of course pay PRSI and if you earned over €4,000 in 2011, you would have paid USC. (Cutoff was moved to €10,000 at the last budget iirc)

Open to correction but I think you can earn up to €21,000 before you ever actually pay income tax. (this may have changed now due to the tax bands/SRCOP being reduced in the last few budgets tho)

With JSB, you certainly need to have a minimum number of weeks worked.
Not certain about JSA, but off the top of my head - there are minimum targets you must have met in order to actually qualify for JSA.
If you do not qualify for JSA, then the HSE may pay for you.

Dannyboy83

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,11073074,Irlandzka_burza_o_polska_bezrobotna.html

They have a little feature on Gazeta.pl on the controversy.

Dannyboy83

antoobrien wrote: »

There's some facts I'd like to know about this e.g. has this person ever held a job here, which would help to provide some balance to the story.

W hostelu na rękę miałam 200 euro tygodniowo, a zajęta byłam od rana do nocy. Najpierw śniadanie dla gości, potem recepcja, między drugą a trzecią sprzątanie pokoi, potem znowu przy telefonie.

W hostelu na rękę miałam 200 euro tygodniowo,
In the hostel I had on hand 200 euro per week

a zajęta byłam od rana do nocy.
and I was busy from morning to night.

Najpierw śniadanie dla gości, potem recepcja, między drugą a trzecią sprzątanie pokoi, potem znowu przy telefonie.
First breakfast for guests, then reception between 2nd and 3rd cleaning of rooms, then again through phone.


If you were working morning to night on minimum wage, you earned about €300 per week, net, in 2011
Might be higher now due to change in the USC.
I assume she was being extorted by her employer.

Slydice

Polish Ambassador sets the record straight:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/polish-ambassadors-response-to-irish-independent-article-3007331.html

I wish to stress that the authors of the Irish article use the facts presented in the Polish article in a very selective and subjective manner. The subject ‘Magda’ states in the Polish article: “I have a big problem with being unemployed, I don’t want to live at the State’s expense and for that reason I use this assistance to allow me start up my own business”. I believe that this is the sentence that best summarizes the context of the original article and it is decidedly unfortunate that it has been omitted in your article.

In terms of her describing her life as ‘Hawaiian Massage’ , at no stage in this article does she make such a statement. What she actually says is that she has completed a FÁS course in Hawaiian Massage and that she’s planning to open a massage business next year. I think you can agree that this misrepresentation completely changes the tone of the article.

She also never describes the place where she lives as s***hole (in fact she loves it and is very passionate about it), she merely refers to other people saying that.

There are many other inaccuracies of that type throughout the Irish Independent article which could have been easily avoided if only the Polish article had been translated correctly or its content presented in a more objective manner.

You have managed to get to know us well in recent years and you know our work ethic and our system of values which, I’m sorry to say, is inaccurately presented in this article published in the Irish Independent.

The danger of an anti-immigrant atmosphere developing during harsh economic times is well-documented throughout history. I would hope that a major newspaper such as the Irish Independent would be conscious of this and take great care when fact-checking such a potentially inflammatory article.

****ing indo, they really know how to pick them

anyone remember Brendan O'Connor in 2006 about how The smart, ballsy guys are buying up property right now ?

NIMAN

I am wondering does this woman even exist, or was it just a piece made up by a journo either to fill space, get people talking the paper/welfare/fraud etc.

Sure who can ever prove/disprove it?

n97 mini

There are plenty of people like her. I know some, and I'm sure a lot of other people know some. I know some Lithuanians that are on the dole for 12 years (originally arrived as asylum seekers!), but I also know some Irish who are on it for longer, and both work the system very well. We call them job dodgers, as it's what they are.

Sin City

Just like most papers do they misquoted the Polish woman and put their own twist on it. This is what she really said.

"The sound of the ocean

It’s six o’clock in the morning and we’re walking in complete darkness through a golf course.

I travelled to Ireland to see what life is like for Polish people who’ve lost their jobs. I thought that when you’re unemployed at least you don’t have to jump out of bed so early in the morning, but no such luck.

Magda (36 years old, almost 2 years on unemployment benefits in Ireland): “I always start my days in the same way: I go down to the beach to see the sunrise. It sets me up for the rest of the day. I used to sleep until noon, but now I don’t want to waste my life.”

It’s a five minute walk to the nearest beach. She had only one wish when she was looking for a house: she wanted to be able to hear the ocean. Then she thought that there had to be light and space, so she wouldn’t feel suffocated; fireplace for those cold evenings and a maximum rent of 85 euro weekly – otherwise she’s not going to get the rent allowance, the benefit from the social welfare office.

“What’s my life like? It’s great. I’m developing as a person, I can live. I get an unemployment benefit – 188 euro weekly and 59 euro for my rent. During the winter I get 20 euro fuel allowance. It’s 267 euro weekly. It’s enough for a quiet life if you don’t live extravagantly.”

Donegal, a county on the Northern tip of Ireland, for some it’s the most beautiful place in the world, for others – biggest nowhersville. Wherever you look, green hills and beaches stretching towards the horizon, just like on a postcard.

On the other hand you can be walking on a beach for an hour and you’ll only meet one elderly man wearing a rain jacket.

“ There’s everything here, but jobs”, laughs Magda. “Half of Donegal has gone away, the other half is on benefits.”

It takes 4 hours to get from the village D. (tourist folders describe it as ‘The Pearl of Donegal’) to Dublin. At weekends, representatives of the middle class come here to play golf, in the summer it’s the tourists. You can walk around the centre in 10 minutes: there’s the church, café, two tourist shops and a pub. In front of the pub, there’s a bench with a view of the bay and the famous Donegal sheep munching on the grass across the water.

A surfing school has been opened on the square where young people, who haven’t left to look for jobs in Australia or the US, meet. Just around the corner there’s an office which is supposed to help the local community. This month they’re advertising sign language courses. Their job-related advice? Ask in the hotel or in the café.

“It doesn’t make sense to work earning the lowest rate. In the hostel I earned 200 euro weekly and I was busy morning till night. First it was breakfast for the guests, then reception, between 2 and 3 cleaning the rooms and then phone duties. On one hand it was fun, you get to meet people from all around the world, but when they knock on your door at 11pm, you want to murder them.”

“You can earn more waitressing, but how long can you be running with a tray? There were times that I was the only person working at a wedding looking after 2 tables of 36 people. I didn’t even have the time to go to the toilet. When I finally managed to convince them to give me some help, they gave me a cleaner – plates kept falling from her hands and she didn’t have a word of English.”

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/02/01/polish-waitress-what-she-really-said-in-polish-newspaper/

antoobrien

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

W hostelu na rękę miałam 200 euro tygodniowo,
In the hostel I had on hand 200 euro per week

a zajęta byłam od rana do nocy.
and I was busy from morning to night.

Najpierw śniadanie dla gości, potem recepcja, między drugą a trzecią sprzątanie pokoi, potem znowu przy telefonie.
First breakfast for guests, then reception between 2nd and 3rd cleaning of rooms, then again through phone.


If you were working morning to night on minimum wage, you earned about €300 per week, net, in 2011
Might be higher now due to change in the USC.
I assume she was being extorted by her employer.

Thanks for the translation.

Those bits show up two issues with the sw & employment systems here (none of which is the fault of this person):
Dole is too high if it's a better option than minimum wage

Some employers are severely exploiting workers (but this is nothing new).

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

There are plenty of people like her. I know some, and I'm sure a lot of other people know some. I know some Lithuanians that are on the dole for 12 years (originally arrived as asylum seekers!), but I also know some Irish who are on it for longer, and both work the system very well. We call them job dodgers, as it's what they are.

Today's Indo has a clarification of sorts...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/do-i-have-a-problem-with-the-fact-that-i-claim-welfare-yes-3007769.html

I believe the article to be factual and not even remotely unreprersentative of the true situation.

I have constantly found Polish people to be educated,motivated and highly capable,something which the following pasage confirms in my mind....

A year ago, when Magda wanted to open a massage studio on the ground floor of her house, her friend whispered: “Not yet. What if – God forbid – there are no clients, then what?

The business will go down, social welfare benefits will be lost, and she will have to toil in some hotel again.” You leave unemployment the smart way – through the ‘backto- work allowance scheme’.

This is a special offer for those who are on welfare for at least two years. An unemployed person who starts his own business, gets the full benefits for the first year, and for another – more than half. You say goodbye to the benefits after two years, when – thanks to state support – your business runs well. In December last year, 927 Polish benefited from the backto- employment programmes. And 465 from “back-to-education” – for the unemployed who want to study.

Magda, in less than half a year, will qualify for the “backto- work” scheme. By this time she will do driving licence, business plan, accounting and marketing courses (everything with [an employment office]).

“Do I have a problem with the fact that I claim social welfare?” she wonders. “Yes. I do not want to live at the expense of the state, so I treat it as a support that will allow me to set up my own business.”

And how people around react to this? “I have never met with unfavourable comments. Maybe it's because a lot of Irish people claim benefits too. And a friend told me once that she prefers that her taxes were spent on me than on the various a**holes from Dublin.” In the afternoon we go for coffee for €3.

"Magda" appears to be well-informed,confident and prepared to utilize every ounce of potential which our Social Welfare system can provide.....not a bad view for a person on welfare to hold I would suggest ?

Whether or not the Irish State can continue to provide these levels of extra supports,incentives and embellishments is the real issue here,rather than any sideline/headline of the nationality of the claimant ?

Dannyboy83

antoobrien wrote: »

Those bits show up two issues with the sw & employment systems here (none of which is the fault of this person):

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whether or not the Irish State can continue to provide these levels of extra supports,incentives and embellishments is the real issue here,rather than any sideline/headline of the nationality of the claimant ?

Completely agree with both comments.

There is a real discussion here which needs to happen.
Unfortunately it has been lost behind the Johnny Foreigner attack.

As I said in the OP, would it not be more appropriate for Senator Jimmy Harte to be outraged by the fact that she makes less money from working than from not working?

In the link which Chucky_The_Tree provided:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfgbididauid/rss2/
he is actively trying to cap social welfare payments.

In relation to this issue, he states that she has taken advantage of the Social Welfare system. But she hasn't. She is just getting the same deal as any other recipient.

Count Dooku

AlekSmart wrote: »

Today's Indo has a clarification of sorts...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/do-i-have-a-problem-with-the-fact-that-i-claim-welfare-yes-3007769.html

only about Magda, not about other

The truth is - says Robert from one phone to another - that is arranged, just different.

- For 8 euros per hour from home do not move. 8 - or more precisely 8.65 - you can earn by washing in a bar or gary tachając boxes at the supermarket. It's better to go on the dole and have peace of mind.

Więcej... http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://wyborcza.pl/1,75480,11028074,Polak_w_Irlandii__Kocham_cie__bezrobocie.html%3Fas%3D4&usg=ALkJrhh7w4oJbrSeuoCiACZILcG_QPyQwA&startsz=x#ixzz1lEHlQ0d4

Kinski

antoobrien wrote: »

Dole is too high if it's a better option than minimum wage

It's not. The ESRI published a study toward the end of last year which showed that people are financially better off working than drawing dole.

A full time minimum wage job (using the standard working week of 39hrs) pays just under 340e p/w. Dole is around 180e a week.

Count Dooku

Kinski wrote: »

It's not. The ESRI published a study toward the end of last year which showed that people are financially better off working than drawing dole.

A full time minimum wage job (using the standard working week of 39hrs) pays just under 340e p/w. Dole is around 180e a week.

It doesn't include other benefits for long term unemployed and costs to be employed (car, lunches, clothes different from pijama etc )
http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/WP395/jacb201155.pdf

antoobrien

Kinski wrote: »

It's not. The ESRI published a study toward the end of last year which showed that people are financially better off working than drawing dole.

A full time minimum wage job (using the standard working week of 39hrs) pays just under 340e p/w. Dole is around 180e a week.

I take it you didn't read either the article or the translation then. The opinion that the person is better off on the dole than on m.w. is hers not mine.

She gets €188 & €59 rent sup & €20 heat allowance during the winter. €247 per week in summer (€267 winter)

That €20 a week more than covers the gas bill for my house btw, so it's not an unreasonable amount.

Compare this with take home pay on €340 per week.
Take away 34.16 = €305.84.
USC - 2.94
PAYE - 22.70 (assuming just paye & single person credits)
PRSI - 8.52

The she fully pays rent & gas of €79 out of this.

Real figure of comparison - €226.84 per week during winter (€20 more in summer).

So tell me, is this person still better off on minimum wage?

Godge

Kinski wrote: »

It's not. The ESRI published a study toward the end of last year which showed that people are financially better off working than drawing dole.

A full time minimum wage job (using the standard working week of 39hrs) pays just under 340e p/w. Dole is around 180e a week.

That ESRI Report has been debunked on here a number of times. In my opinion, it is not worth the paper it is written on and is full of unsustainable assumptions and rediculous leaps of logic.

Kinski

antoobrien wrote: »

I take it you didn't read either the article or the translation then. The opinion that the person is better off on the dole than on m.w. is hers not mine.

I did, and more closely than you apparently, because it doesn't say that the rent supplement covers all her rent, which, if I'm not mistaken, is what I assume you're getting at here:

The she fully pays rent & gas of €79 out of this.

That €20 a week more than covers the gas bill for my house btw, so it's not an unreasonable amount.

Certainly couldn't heat my house for 20 quid a week; there are so many variables to weigh up with that one that I don't consider it worth speculating about.

She also claims that she earned just 200e for what appears to have been a full-time job.

Godge wrote: »

That ESRI Report has been debunked on here a number of times. In my opinion, it is not worth the paper it is written on and is full of unsustainable assumptions and rediculous leaps of logic.

Then link me to one of these debunkings, or show me what flaws you think it contains, rather than just flatly stating that it's "not worth the paper it's written on" or similar such bollocks.

Count Dooku

Kinski wrote: »

Certainly couldn't heat my house for 20 quid a week;

Since when a single person can get whole house?
if she is sharing, then it should be enough

antoobrien

Kinski wrote: »

I did, and more closely than you apparently

Didn't say that it did. It is €59 that she doesn't have to fork out of her own earnings if she was earning minimum wage.

Kinski wrote: »

Certainly couldn't heat my house for 20 quid a week

I suggest you get your insulation checked then. The total gas bill for house I live in came to about €120 in the bill to December for the 2 month billing period (and would rarely go above €160). Lets see €120/8=€15 per week. Oops. Btw I'm sharing with 3 others so I paid €30 (and €20 for the electricity).

Kinski wrote: »

She also claims that she earned just 200e for what appears to have been a full-time job.

sounds vaguely illegal as it's way the hell under m.w. - dealt with in an earlier post:

antoobrien wrote: »

Some employers are severely exploiting workers (but this is nothing new).

I notice you've totally ignored the calculations. Since you seem to believe I'm wrong, are you going to tell me how I've messed up my calculations?

Godge

Kinski wrote: »

Then link me to one of these debunkings, or show me what flaws you think it contains, rather than just flatly stating that it's "not worth the paper it's written on" or similar such bollocks.

Count Dooku in post 41 I think pointed out some of the obvious ones.

Quite simply, it took the question literally, if you were better off by €1 being at work, then life on the dole did not pay. This is no way took account of the utility value of time off, there was no account taken of childcare cost for someone who worked, no account taken of travel to work, clothes and lunches at work, ancillary costs of working etc. There was no account taken of other benefits available to those on the dole such as the back-to-education payments in September, the money from the HSE for communions, etc.

I can't remember what thread or post I put it in, but once you factored those things in, I think I estimated that 40% of those on the dole were better of (or no worse off) than working.

I am not going to do the work again for your benefit.

Godge

Kinski wrote: »

I


Certainly couldn't heat my house for 20 quid a week; there are so many variables to weigh up with that one that I don't consider it worth speculating about.

.

I am on gas and for a four-bed semi, the average is €40 a month, there is someone in the house 90% of the time.

Granted I use the facility to spread the payments evenly over 12 months but 6 months of fuel allowance at €20 per week would easily cover my gas bill. You must be using it too much.

Kinski

antoobrien wrote: »

I notice you've totally ignored the calculations. Since you seem to believe I'm wrong, are you going to tell me how I've messed up my calculations?

I didn't totally ignore them. I needed clarification on the 59e - the typo threw me. I'll respond when I get a chance to refamiliarise myself with the ESRI report.

Godge wrote: »

Quite simply, it took the question literally, if you were better off by €1 being at work, then life on the dole did not pay. This is no way took account of the utility value of time off, there was no account taken of childcare cost for someone who worked, no account taken of travel to work, clothes and lunches at work, ancillary costs of working etc. There was no account taken of other benefits available to those on the dole such as the back-to-education payments in September, the money from the HSE for communions, etc.

You're asking for the inclusion of things that are difficult to quantify in the report. The "utility value" of free time? Care to put a figure on that? Travel, food, etc. vary too much. Some drive to work daily and eat at Starbuck's, others cycle and bring a packed lunch.

Childcare costs can't be used in this context. If someone decides not to take a minimum wage job because the cost of childcare is too high, then the disincentive is the cost of childcare (remember, welfare recipients are supposed to be available for and actively seeking work - "staying home with the kids" is not a reason not to take a job.)

I'm not sure why you're bringing BTEA into it. People on BTEA are considered to be studying, not unemployed (during term, anyhow). I assume "communion allowance" is a one-off.

I can't remember what thread or post I put it in, but once you factored those things in, I think I estimated that 40% of those on the dole were better of (or no worse off) than working.

Then there is no point mentioning it; it can't carry any weight in this argument.

I am on gas and for a four-bed semi, the average is €40 a month, there is someone in the house 90% of the time.

Granted I use the facility to spread the payments evenly over 12 months but 6 months of fuel allowance at €20 per week would easily cover my gas bill. You must be using it too much.

Nope, I just live in a bigger house than you. This is another variable; someone on the dole, even in a small residence, may have to contend with poor insulation and an inefficient heating system, which they're not in a position to change. Others may well cover their heating bill with the allowance. So what's the point in speculating?

Godge

Kinski wrote: »

.



You're asking for the inclusion of things that are difficult to quantify in the report. The "utility value" of free time? Care to put a figure on that? Travel, food, etc. vary too much. Some drive to work daily and eat at Starbuck's, others cycle and bring a packed lunch.

Childcare costs can't be used in this context. If someone decides not to take a minimum wage job because the cost of childcare is too high, then the disincentive is the cost of childcare (remember, welfare recipients are supposed to be available for and actively seeking work - "staying home with the kids" is not a reason not to take a job.)

I know people who don't qualify for JSB or JSA who take the cost of childcare into account and opt out of the workforce.

Of course, there are the exceptional cases for whom going to work costs nothing (I have yet to meet one by the way but I am sure they exist). The point is the ESRI report put no value on the cost of going to work, it put no value on ancillary social welfare benefits and it put no value on the utility of free time. That makes it a case of rubbish in, rubbish out and its conclusions do not stand up as a result. As all of the factors mentioned only act in one way - they increase the disincentive to work - the conclusion that there is no disincentive to work is inherently flawed.

Kinski wrote: »

.

I'm not sure why you're bringing BTEA into it. People on BTEA are considered to be studying, not unemployed (during term, anyhow). I assume "communion allowance" is a one-off.

Wasn't talking about BTEA at all. There is a payment to social welfare recipients facilitated through the schools and/or the HSE that covers the cost of school uniforms and books etc. that working parents have to cover themselves. Just another example of the ancillary social welfare benefits that make the ESRI Report pointless.

Kinski wrote: »

.

Nope, I just live in a bigger house than you. This is another variable; someone on the dole, even in a small residence, may have to contend with poor insulation and an inefficient heating system, which they're not in a position to change. Others may well cover their heating bill with the allowance. So what's the point in speculating?

OK, you might live in a bigger house than me but if most social welfare recipients living in a bigger house than me (which is what we are talking about - the fuel allowance), then that just means there is an even bigger problem with the social welfare system than I thought. And, by the way, I have serious insulation problems that I am hoping to address so it is not that either.

alphanine

Check out this quote, it isn't lost in translation:

"The purpose of claiming social welfare is to have time to reflect on a person’s life. For example, I discovered that I no longer want to work for someone. I like to do things my way"

There are very very few countries in the world that would allow non-nationals come here and take this attitude at tax payers expense.

Can no-one else see the madness of this system?? Forget the Indo trash, the glaring problem is our public finances. Our government have had to cut blind peoples allowance FFS let alone our medical, education and capital budgets.