Irish rugbys conservatism

profitius

I was listening to EOS on the radio the other day. Hes doing plenty of media of work this season actually and its interesting listening to him. Interestingly you can see why Ireland never won anything under him (I don't think triple crowns are anything worth shouting about).

Theres 2 reasons. The first is he is very opinionated but we all knew that. The second reason became clear to me the other day. Speaking about the Ireland/Wales match he was asked about the number 10 position. He said without hesitation that he would go with ROG. The reasons were that he thought ROG was the safer option and Ireland should try slow the game down and not take on Wales in a fast paced game of running rugby. Its that fear that prevented Ireland from winning more 6 nations titles in the last 10 or 11 years.

So lets look at that statement from a neutral point of view. Irish provincial teams are flying in Europe playing some excellent rugby and performing far higher than the Welsh teams but, when it comes to international rugby we should change our tactics at home for fear of the Welsh!

Irish coaches are also obsessed with experience. Experienced players are better than inexperienced players only if they are equally talented. Younger more talented players who would make the team better are left out due to lack of experience. This is because the coaches fear something going wrong. I don't want caps to be handed out willy nilly but Irish rugby needs to get the balance right.

Once players are selected that seems to be that. They have to do something special to get dropped. The selection process seems to be very political.

When Munster crashed out of the HEC last season Tony McGahan in Munster changed the way he selected the team. He was bold enough to actually start rewarding form players! Since then the Munster team, although in transition, have been on an upward curve. McLoughlin in Ulster has played the young lads and Joe Schmidt has been great for Leinster.

I hope the next gen of Irish coaches are more forward thinking. Conor O'Shea has gotten Quin playing great rugby which is positive and fearless. They beat knocked Munster out of the Amlin last season and won away to Toulouse. All this despite having a limited squad. Its too early to be writing off Kidney but O'Shea would be my choice to be next Irish coach for those reasons.

Tox56

profitius wrote: »

I was listening to EOS on the radio the other day. Hes doing plenty of media of work this season actually and its interesting listening to him. Interestingly you can see why Ireland never won anything under him (I don't think triple crowns are anything worth shouting about).

Theres 2 reasons. The first is he is very opinionated but we all knew that. The second reason because clear to me the other day. Speaking about the Ireland/Wales match he was asked about the number 10 position. He said without hesitation that he would go with ROG. The reasons were that he thought ROG was the safer option and Ireland should try slow the game down and not take on Wales in a fast paced game of running rugby. Its that fear that prevented Ireland from winning more 6 nations titles in the last 10 or 11 years.

So lets look at that statement from a neutral point of view. Irish provincial teams are flying in Europe playing some excellent rugby and performing far higher than the Welsh teams but, when it comes to international rugby we should change our tactics at home for fear of the Welsh!

Irish coaches are also obsessed with experience. Experienced players are better than inexperienced players only if they are equally talented. Younger more talented players who would make the team better are left out due to lack of experience. This is because the coaches fear something going wrong. I don't want caps to be handed out willy nilly but Irish rugby needs to get the balance right.

Once players are selected that seems to be that. They have to do something special to get dropped. The selection process seems to be very political.

When Munster crashed out of the HEC last season Tony McGahan in Munster changed the way he selected the team. He was bold enough to actually start rewarding form players! Since then the Munster team, although in transition, have been on an upward curve. McLoughlin in Ulster has played the young lads and Joe Schmidt has been great for Leinster.

I hope the next gen of Irish coaches are more forward thinking. Conor O'Shea has gotten Quin playing great rugby which is positive and fearless. They beat knocked Munster out of the Amlin last season and won away to Toulouse. All this despite having a limited squad. Its too early to be writing off Kidney but O'Shea would be my choice to be next Irish coach for those reasons.

Leinster7

and Schmidt would be mine. The problem here isn't conservatism within Irish coaches but conservatism within the IRFU.

Fishooks12

Good post

You only need to watch some of the tries scored by the provinces this season to realise that something isn't right with the national team's playing style

Podge_irl

It's a bit of a throw back mentally to when Ireland's best hope was a wet and windy day where they'd simply try and stop the opposition playing and hope to get the bounce of the ball. It's going to take a fairly drastic change in attitude to move away from that. I think a foreign coach would help hugely personally.

profitius

I wouldn't mind seeing Schmidt there myself. He has the right attitude.

lologram

I agree, good post.

I'd like to add that I think the conservatism manifests itself in a willingness to settle for less.

On Off The Ball's Rugby slot last week, Thornley (admittedly not with too much fervour) argued that the lack of 6N titles in the last 10 years was ok given that we won a few Triple Crowns. Matt Williams almost lost it at the suggestion. He told it like it is; that Triple Crowns are a nothing prize. Sometimes it seems like Irish rugby is too introspective and conservative to see these things and needs outsiders to put them in their right context.

I don't care if the 6N prize-giving committee lumps in an extra piece of silver to keep the Championship trophy company in the cabinet, but anyone who argues that we should be celebrating winning the Triple Crown as some great achievement should take a serious look at themselves.

Kayless

There's also a counter argument that would suggest EOS and DK are right and that is experience over youth take EOM for example... id say Gatland would have him starting and yeah i know we don't have any other fit 13s but Mcfadden and Earls are still more experienced players. Its almost like a right of passage, it might explain why we have so many crowns and so few slams

At one end you have a fit young 13 playing well and ready to go but with less experience and on the other end you have two talented players filling in at 13 with more experience at this level, its catch 22 situation.

Leinster7

I read about how Joe Schmidt conducts himself with the players and that he talks with each of them individually after training sessions when he is selecting his teams. He lets the ones that are both selected and not selected know what he is happy about and what he wants them to work on. They discuss why they were selected or why they weren't selected and what he wants from them going forward and he listens to the players and works with them.

Seems simple eh? Simple man management that keeps the players motivated and in perceived control of their destinies.

Instil this with his philosophy of how the game should be played and how well he manages his coaching team and a bunch of young raw talent at his disposal and you have a recipe for success.

molloyjh

profitius wrote: »

I was listening to EOS on the radio the other day. Hes doing plenty of media of work this season actually and its interesting listening to him. Interestingly you can see why Ireland never won anything under him (I don't think triple crowns are anything worth shouting about).

Theres 2 reasons. The first is he is very opinionated but we all knew that. The second reason became clear to me the other day. Speaking about the Ireland/Wales match he was asked about the number 10 position. He said without hesitation that he would go with ROG. The reasons were that he thought ROG was the safer option and Ireland should try slow the game down and not take on Wales in a fast paced game of running rugby. Its that fear that prevented Ireland from winning more 6 nations titles in the last 10 or 11 years.

So lets look at that statement from a neutral point of view. Irish provincial teams are flying in Europe playing some excellent rugby and performing far higher than the Welsh teams but, when it comes to international rugby we should change our tactics at home for fear of the Welsh!

Irish coaches are also obsessed with experience. Experienced players are better than inexperienced players only if they are equally talented. Younger more talented players who would make the team better are left out due to lack of experience. This is because the coaches fear something going wrong. I don't want caps to be handed out willy nilly but Irish rugby needs to get the balance right.

Once players are selected that seems to be that. They have to do something special to get dropped. The selection process seems to be very political.

When Munster crashed out of the HEC last season Tony McGahan in Munster changed the way he selected the team. He was bold enough to actually start rewarding form players! Since then the Munster team, although in transition, have been on an upward curve. McLoughlin in Ulster has played the young lads and Joe Schmidt has been great for Leinster.

I hope the next gen of Irish coaches are more forward thinking. Conor O'Shea has gotten Quin playing great rugby which is positive and fearless. They beat knocked Munster out of the Amlin last season and won away to Toulouse. All this despite having a limited squad. Its too early to be writing off Kidney but O'Shea would be my choice to be next Irish coach for those reasons.

I agree with pretty much everything there but that last bolded bit. When is it ok to write off Kidney? How many years of underachieving and dire rugby is enough for us to be able to say "hold on something's got to give"? Honest question are now, I'm not being smart. We get this a lot, the "ah sure give him a chance before judging" kind of thing. But when does enough become enough?

Leinster7

molloyjh wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything there but that last bolded bit. When is it ok to write off Kidney? How many years of underachieving and dire rugby is enough for us to be able to say "hold on something's got to give"? Honest question are now, I'm not being smart. We get this a lot, the "ah sure give him a chance before judging" kind of thing. But when does enough become enough?

2 years ago losing to Scotland and being mauled by the ABs at home was enough.

Kidney's pre WC results from when the new rules were instilled:
(45% win record at home and 2 losses to Scotland, just scraping by Italy etc etc...)

Sat 6th Feb 10 14:30 6N Ireland 29 - 11 Italy Croke Park
Sat 13th Feb 10 17:30 6N France 33 - 10 Ireland Stade de Fr
Sat 27th Feb 10 16:00 6N England 16 - 20 Ireland Twickenham
Sat 13th Mar 10 14:30 6N Ireland 27 - 12 Wales Croke Park
Sat 20th Mar 10 17:00 6N Ireland 20 - 23 Scotland Croke Park
Sat 12th Jun 10 19:35 F NZ 66 - 28 Ireland
Sat 26th Jun 10 20:00 F Australia 22 - 15 Ireland
Sat 6th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa
Sat 13th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 20 - 10 Samoa
Sat 20th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 18 - 38 New Zealand
Sun 28th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 29 - 9 Argentina
Sat 5th Feb 11 15:30 6N Italy 11 - 13 Ireland
Sun 13th Feb 11 15:00 6N Ireland 22 - 25 France AVIVA
Sun 27th Feb 11 15:00 6N Scotland 18 - 21 Ireland Murrayfield
Sat 12th Mar 11 17:00 6N Wales 19 - 13 Ireland Millennium
Sat 19th Mar 11 17:00 6N Ireland 24 - 8 England AVIVA
Sat 6th Aug 11 14:15 F Scotland 10 - 6 Ireland Murrayfield
Sat 13th Aug 11 20:45 F France 19 - 12 Ireland Chaban
Sat 20th Aug 11 17:00 F Ireland 22 - 26 France AVIVA
Sat 27th Aug 11 14:30 F Ireland 9 - 20 England AVIVA

shuffol

lologram wrote: »

I agree, good post.

I'd like to add that I think the conservatism manifests itself in a willingness to settle for less.

On Off The Ball's Rugby slot last week, Thornley (admittedly not with too much fervour) argued that the lack of 6N titles in the last 10 years was ok given that we won a few Triple Crowns. Matt Williams almost lost it at the suggestion. He told it like it is; that Triple Crowns are a nothing prize. Sometimes it seems like Irish rugby is too introspective and conservative to see these things and needs outsiders to put them in their right context.

I don't care if the 6N prize-giving committee lumps in an extra piece of silver to keep the Championship trophy company in the cabinet, but anyone who argues that we should be celebrating winning the Triple Crown as some great achievement should take a serious look at themselves.

If they gave out a trophy for finishing second we'd probably celebrate winning that too.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything there but that last bolded bit. When is it ok to write off Kidney? How many years of underachieving and dire rugby is enough for us to be able to say "hold on something's got to give"? Honest question are now, I'm not being smart. We get this a lot, the "ah sure give him a chance before judging" kind of thing. But when does enough become enough?

i am a bit fan of connor o shea personally but dk hasn't been bad he's getting a lot of crap off people and i dont know y we don't have new Zealand's roster the fact is we are never going to be winning the 6 nations 5 years in a row its just 2 competitive a competition hes won us a grand slam and before you say it was in an off year we did win a grand slam and you cant do much better than that. he had 1 disappointing 6 nations last year but started blooding a few young players and we were playing well in the world cup bar 1 game against in my opinion the in form side in the tournament. by no means is dk untouchable but i think hes done a better job than people give him credit for.

profitius

molloyjh wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything there but that last bolded bit. When is it ok to write off Kidney? How many years of underachieving and dire rugby is enough for us to be able to say "hold on something's got to give"? Honest question are now, I'm not being smart. We get this a lot, the "ah sure give him a chance before judging" kind of thing. But when does enough become enough?

Thats a fair question. I'll give him until the summer. If theres no sign of improvement by then it'll be time for somebody knew. By 'improvement' I'm not talking about results I'm talking about performances ie getting the best out of the team by playing good rugby. Results will come if the team starts to perform as they can.

Podge_irl

Ximena Whining Shin wrote: »

i am a bit fan of connor o shea personally but dk hasn't been bad he's getting a lot of crap off people and i dont know y we don't have new Zealand's roster the fact is we are never going to be winning the 6 nations 5 years in a row its just 2 competitive a competition hes won us a grand slam and before you say it was in an off year we did win a grand slam and you cant do much better than that. he had 1 disappointing 6 nations last year but started blooding a few young players and we were playing well in the world cup bar 1 game against in my opinion the in form side in the tournament. by no means is dk untouchable but i think hes done a better job than people give him credit for.

Marc Lievremont won a Grand Slam...

Cpt_Blackbeard

Leinster7 wrote: »

2 years ago losing to Scotland and being mauled by the ABs at home was enough.

Kidney's pre WC results from when the new rules were instilled:
(45% win record at home and 2 losses to Scotland, just scraping by Italy etc etc...)

Sat 6th Feb 10 14:30 6N Ireland 29 - 11 Italy Croke Park
Sat 13th Feb 10 17:30 6N France 33 - 10 Ireland Stade de Fr
Sat 27th Feb 10 16:00 6N England 16 - 20 Ireland Twickenham
Sat 13th Mar 10 14:30 6N Ireland 27 - 12 Wales Croke Park
Sat 20th Mar 10 17:00 6N Ireland 20 - 23 Scotland Croke Park
Sat 12th Jun 10 19:35 F NZ 66 - 28 Ireland
Sat 26th Jun 10 20:00 F Australia 22 - 15 Ireland
Sat 6th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa
Sat 13th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 20 - 10 Samoa
Sat 20th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 18 - 38 New Zealand
Sun 28th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 29 - 9 Argentina
Sat 5th Feb 11 15:30 6N Italy 11 - 13 Ireland
Sun 13th Feb 11 15:00 6N Ireland 22 - 25 France AVIVA
Sun 27th Feb 11 15:00 6N Scotland 18 - 21 Ireland Murrayfield
Sat 12th Mar 11 17:00 6N Wales 19 - 13 Ireland Millennium
Sat 19th Mar 11 17:00 6N Ireland 24 - 8 England AVIVA
Sat 6th Aug 11 14:15 F Scotland 10 - 6 Ireland Murrayfield
Sat 13th Aug 11 20:45 F France 19 - 12 Ireland Chaban
Sat 20th Aug 11 17:00 F Ireland 22 - 26 France AVIVA
Sat 27th Aug 11 14:30 F Ireland 9 - 20 England AVIVA

What is this supposed to tell us, other than you can suit any argument with selective quoting. We performed terribly in the nothing warm ups, no complaints but, if you are to include those failures, you should include the WC wins.

Other than that, the Scotland game is the only slip up and the loss to Wales doesn't really count. Every other game was played against a team better than ourselves and is nothing to throw in a coaches face.

Terrible argument.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Marc Lievremont won a Grand Slam...

that french team got to a world cup final the players took over how much do you think he actually did.

molloyjh

Leinster7 wrote: »

2 years ago losing to Scotland and being mauled by the ABs at home was enough.

To be fair I thought the NZ game was a really positive step forward. Okay we lost on the day due to falling off the pace for 15 or so mins around half time. But we finally looked like we were embracing an expansive game and looked like we weren't far off delivering that for 80 mins.

I was really encouraged by that going into last years 6 Nations. I was even willing to accept not winning the tournament as long as we saw progress in that area. The first 2 games were a little worrying but the noises from camp had been that they were close and if they clicked we'd be away. Then came the Scotland and Wales games where Kidney utterly abandoned any form of expansive play. Either he didn't trust himself, the coaching staff, the players or all of the above to deliver it, regardless we took a huge step back from which we didn't recover. Or at least haven't yet. That to me was the single most damning thing Kidney did. And for me was the last straw.

also england,france and possibly wales are as good if not better than us

molloyjh

Ximena Whining Shin wrote: »

i am a bit fan of connor o shea personally but dk hasn't been bad he's getting a lot of crap off people and i dont know y we don't have new Zealand's roster the fact is we are never going to be winning the 6 nations 5 years in a row its just 2 competitive a competition hes won us a grand slam and before you say it was in an off year we did win a grand slam and you cant do much better than that. he had 1 disappointing 6 nations last year but started blooding a few young players and we were playing well in the world cup bar 1 game against in my opinion the in form side in the tournament. by no means is dk untouchable but i think hes done a better job than people give him credit for.

Agreed. Personally I think once every 3 years is reasonable though right now given the rude health Irish rugby is in.

profitius wrote: »

Thats a fair question. I'll give him until the summer. If theres no sign of improvement by then it'll be time for somebody knew. By 'improvement' I'm not talking about results I'm talking about performances ie getting the best out of the team by playing good rugby. Results will come if the team starts to perform as they can.

Yeah fair enough, I can understand that. I think this 6 Nations could be interesting given that Gaffney has moved on. There's still the optimist in me half expecting positive moves forward. But after last years about-face I'd need a few consistent performances before being convinced. 1 good game a la England and Australia won't cut it.

Damn it, the closer we get to Sunday the more expectant I become. So much for not being arsed with it this year....

shuffol

Forget performances, I'd settle for a bit of vision as to how we want to play, since 09 we've looked directionless in most games. The fact that we keep alternating between outhalves who play different styles hints at this. I think Kidneys main concern is with keeping players happy.

Leinster7

shuffol wrote: »

Forget performances, I'd settle for a bit of vision as to how we want to play, since 09 we've looked directionless in most games. The fact that we keep alternating between outhalves who play different styles hints at this. I think Kidneys main concern is with keeping his job.

you all seem to forget the days when a all losses and a victory against england made people happy yes we have 3 provinces playing very well but thats 3 teams to pick our players out of so it seems silly to discount france and england for that reason this is a good irish team but there not a super team like people seem to think. they can win the 6 nations and i hope to god they do but they can not they should.

Eoin

profitius wrote: »

Interestingly you can see why Ireland never won anything under him (I don't think triple crowns are anything worth shouting about).

Yet I think we played our most exciting rugby under him. We were unlucky not to win the grand slam under him in 07 and lucky to win it under Kidney in 09. Also, the triple crown might not mean much now, but the first one we won with him did mean a lot at the time. It was the start of Ireland stringing wins together in one season, of being a genuine contender for the title every year and not being content to avoid the wooden spoon.

Whatever about saying that winning one now means nothing, but saying that the first one was no big deal is belittling it unnecessarily.

That aside - while it's great seeing Fijian style rugby, sometimes it's not the best approach to take. Trying to run the ball too much and too early has cost us on occasion, though with Gaffney gone, maybe our back line will deliver more.

I agree with a lot of what you said though; in particular how it's seemingly harder to get off the team than on it.

jacothelad

profitius wrote: »

I was listening to EOS on the radio the other day. Hes doing plenty of media of work this season actually and its interesting listening to him. Interestingly you can see why Ireland never won anything under him (I don't think triple crowns are anything worth shouting about).

Theres 2 reasons. The first is he is very opinionated but we all knew that. The second reason became clear to me the other day. Speaking about the Ireland/Wales match he was asked about the number 10 position. He said without hesitation that he would go with ROG. The reasons were that he thought ROG was the safer option and Ireland should try slow the game down and not take on Wales in a fast paced game of running rugby. Its that fear that prevented Ireland from winning more 6 nations titles in the last 10 or 11 years.

So lets look at that statement from a neutral point of view. Irish provincial teams are flying in Europe playing some excellent rugby and performing far higher than the Welsh teams but, when it comes to international rugby we should change our tactics at home for fear of the Welsh!

Irish coaches are also obsessed with experience. Experienced players are better than inexperienced players only if they are equally talented. Younger more talented players who would make the team better are left out due to lack of experience. This is because the coaches fear something going wrong. I don't want caps to be handed out willy nilly but Irish rugby needs to get the balance right.

Once players are selected that seems to be that. They have to do something special to get dropped. The selection process seems to be very political.

When Munster crashed out of the HEC last season Tony McGahan in Munster changed the way he selected the team. He was bold enough to actually start rewarding form players! Since then the Munster team, although in transition, have been on an upward curve. McLoughlin in Ulster has played the young lads and Joe Schmidt has been great for Leinster.

I hope the next gen of Irish coaches are more forward thinking. Conor O'Shea has gotten Quin playing great rugby which is positive and fearless. They beat knocked Munster out of the Amlin last season and won away to Toulouse. All this despite having a limited squad. Its too early to be writing off Kidney but O'Shea would be my choice to be next Irish coach for those reasons.

Ireland played some of the best rugby they have produced in their history when EOS was coach. His bad year of 2008 isn't much different to the last two of Kidney's 6Ns. As for not winning anything, we were a POC dropped restart away from a GS and his win\loss ratio is far superior to Kidney's. The problem with EOS and Ireland is that he was allowed to stay too long and became institutionalised to what he had created.

CouchSmart

We've just so happened to have had two quite conservative coaches over the past decade. Previous to that, for example, we had Gatland starting O'Driscoll who wasn't even starting at Leinster.

With EOS we had 15 players who couldn't get out of the team even if they wanted. Though the depth wasn't as obvious as it is today.

With Kidney we have a squad of about 35 potential players but for the most part there's a definite 15. So while he has 'developed' a squad, he rarely used it and to be honest I wouldn't hold that against him too much. Why use your whole squad if your best 15 are performing at peak capacity - this is were Kidney falls down. Year and year, game after game it's the same story. The lad deserves another go or some other excuse until he literally has to make the change.

For example, Fitzgerald last season (I'm purposely using a Leinster player so no accusations of blue glasses please). He was playing terribly at fullback. So much so that you could nearly say he single handedly lost us the game against France with his poor fielding. And yet every week until the English game he was picked. Now I know we were a bit stuck but still, play anyone else - I don't think it could've gotten any worse.

So whatever Kidney picks for Sunday is what he thinks is his strongest 15. That's grand, but if they don't perform as a team or individually then he needs to decide on a better 15 not keep giving the same lads a crack to make up for it. It's only 5 games, there's not enough time for lads to get into form, build continuity etc.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Leinster7 wrote: »

2 years ago losing to Scotland and being mauled by the ABs at home was enough.

To be fair I thought the NZ game was a really positive step forward. Okay we lost on the day due to falling off the pace for 15 or so mins around half time. But we finally looked like we were embracing an expansive game and looked like we weren't far off delivering that for 80 mins.

I was really encouraged by that going into last years 6 Nations. I was even willing to accept not winning the tournament as long as we saw progress in that area. The first 2 games were a little worrying but the noises from camp had been that they were close and if they clicked we'd be away. Then came the Scotland and Wales games where Kidney utterly abandoned any form of expansive play. Either he didn't trust himself, the coaching staff, the players or all of the above to deliver it, regardless we took a huge step back from which we didn't recover. Or at least haven't yet. That to me was the single most damning thing Kidney did. And for me was the last straw.

The New Zealand game was really positive. I agree. As was the 2011 England game. As was the Australia game in the world cup. Probably our 3 best team performances under Kidney.

The one constant in those games being a Reddan-Sexton axis. How they haven't been trusted together more is beyond me.

fitz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The New Zealand game was really positive. I agree. As was the 2011 England game. As was the Australia game in the world cup. Probably our 3 best team performances under Kidney.

The one constant in those games being a Reddan-Sexton axis. How they haven't been trusted together more is beyond me.

I think that's what frustrates people.
DK seems to have this wilfully wrong-headed, stubborn adherence to what he thinks is his "best team", despite clear and obvious evidence that his favoured selections aren't the ones that produce our best performances and results.
It's maddening.

Until we get rid of this extreme conservatism in our coaching structure, we're not going to realise the full potential of the players we have available for the national team.

Someone mentioned BOD getting started by Gatland when he wasn't starting at Leinster...look how that turned out.
Also, having seen him up close at the RWC and how intensely invested he seemed even keeping warm from the bench, I would say that Donnacha Ryan's form this year is down to his selection for the RWC squad. It seems to have brought his game to another level, whether that's the influence of being around the squad, or that it just gave him a taste that drove him on to better things. You have to take a punt on potential Internationals sometime, and I'd wonder are we missing opportunities to bring players on that final step, just by not giving them the chance to show they can do it.

desertcircus

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Leinster7 wrote: »

2 years ago losing to Scotland and being mauled by the ABs at home was enough.

Kidney's pre WC results from when the new rules were instilled:
(45% win record at home and 2 losses to Scotland, just scraping by Italy etc etc...)

Sat 6th Feb 10 14:30 6N Ireland 29 - 11 Italy Croke Park
[COLOR="red"]Sat 13th Feb 10 17:30 6N France 33 - 10 Ireland Stade de Fr[/COLOR]
Sat 27th Feb 10 16:00 6N England 16 - 20 Ireland Twickenham
Sat 13th Mar 10 14:30 6N Ireland 27 - 12 Wales Croke Park
[COLOR="red"]Sat 20th Mar 10 17:00 6N Ireland 20 - 23 Scotland Croke Park[/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]Sat 12th Jun 10 19:35 F NZ 66 - 28 Ireland
Sat 26th Jun 10 20:00 F Australia 22 - 15 Ireland[/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]Sat 6th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa[/COLOR]
Sat 13th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 20 - 10 Samoa
[COLOR="red"]Sat 20th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 18 - 38 New Zealand[/COLOR]
Sun 28th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 29 - 9 Argentina
Sat 5th Feb 11 15:30 6N Italy 11 - 13 Ireland
[COLOR="red"]Sun 13th Feb 11 15:00 6N Ireland 22 - 25 France AVIVA[/COLOR]
Sun 27th Feb 11 15:00 6N Scotland 18 - 21 Ireland Murrayfield
[COLOR="red"]Sat 12th Mar 11 17:00 6N Wales 19 - 13 Ireland Millennium [/COLOR]
Sat 19th Mar 11 17:00 6N Ireland 24 - 8 England AVIVA
[COLOR="Red"]Sat 6th Aug 11 14:15 F Scotland 10 - 6 Ireland Murrayfield
Sat 13th Aug 11 20:45 F France 19 - 12 Ireland Chaban
Sat 20th Aug 11 17:00 F Ireland 22 - 26 France AVIVA
Sat 27th Aug 11 14:30 F Ireland 9 - 20 England AVIVA[/COLOR]

What is this supposed to tell us, other than you can suit any argument with selective quoting. We performed terribly in the nothing warm ups, no complaints but, if you are to include those failures, you should include the WC wins.

Other than that, the Scotland game is the only slip up and the loss to Wales doesn't really count. Every other game was played against a team better than ourselves and is nothing to throw in a coaches face.

Terrible argument.

What makes those teams better than us?

Cpt_Blackbeard

desertcircus wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Leinster7 wrote: »

2 years ago losing to Scotland and being mauled by the ABs at home was enough.

Kidney's pre WC results from when the new rules were instilled:
(45% win record at home and 2 losses to Scotland, just scraping by Italy etc etc...)

Sat 6th Feb 10 14:30 6N Ireland 29 - 11 Italy Croke Park
[COLOR="red"]Sat 13th Feb 10 17:30 6N France 33 - 10 Ireland Stade de Fr[/COLOR]
Sat 27th Feb 10 16:00 6N England 16 - 20 Ireland Twickenham
Sat 13th Mar 10 14:30 6N Ireland 27 - 12 Wales Croke Park
[COLOR="red"]Sat 20th Mar 10 17:00 6N Ireland 20 - 23 Scotland Croke Park[/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]Sat 12th Jun 10 19:35 F NZ 66 - 28 Ireland
Sat 26th Jun 10 20:00 F Australia 22 - 15 Ireland[/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]Sat 6th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa[/COLOR]
Sat 13th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 20 - 10 Samoa
[COLOR="red"]Sat 20th Nov 10 17:30 GS Ireland 18 - 38 New Zealand[/COLOR]
Sun 28th Nov 10 14:30 GS Ireland 29 - 9 Argentina
Sat 5th Feb 11 15:30 6N Italy 11 - 13 Ireland
[COLOR="red"]Sun 13th Feb 11 15:00 6N Ireland 22 - 25 France AVIVA[/COLOR]
Sun 27th Feb 11 15:00 6N Scotland 18 - 21 Ireland Murrayfield
[COLOR="red"]Sat 12th Mar 11 17:00 6N Wales 19 - 13 Ireland Millennium [/COLOR]
Sat 19th Mar 11 17:00 6N Ireland 24 - 8 England AVIVA
[COLOR="Red"]Sat 6th Aug 11 14:15 F Scotland 10 - 6 Ireland Murrayfield
Sat 13th Aug 11 20:45 F France 19 - 12 Ireland Chaban
Sat 20th Aug 11 17:00 F Ireland 22 - 26 France AVIVA
Sat 27th Aug 11 14:30 F Ireland 9 - 20 England AVIVA[/COLOR]

What is this supposed to tell us, other than you can suit any argument with selective quoting. We performed terribly in the nothing warm ups, no complaints but, if you are to include those failures, you should include the WC wins.

Other than that, the Scotland game is the only slip up and the loss to Wales doesn't really count. Every other game was played against a team better than ourselves and is nothing to throw in a coaches face.

Terrible argument.

What makes those teams better than us?

Better players and far superior basic skills.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Better players and far superior basic skills.

Whilst that is obviously subjective, we could be so much better than we are. We have the players to play like Leinster, and be the best team in NH, but we don't.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Tox56 wrote: »

Whilst that is obviously subjective, we could be so much better than we are. We have the players to play like Leinster, and be the best team in NH, but we don't.

There is a huge gap between provincial and international rugby. Just because Leinster are capable of near dominating European rugby doesn't mean that Ireland can do the same at international level if they copy the same gameplan.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There is a huge gap between provincial and international rugby. Just because Leinster are capable of near dominating European rugby doesn't mean that Ireland can do the same at international level if they copy the same gameplan.

(A+B+C) > A+B+C for Scotland/ Wales/ Italy/ Argentina / AN Other country
(A+B+C) < A+B+C for Ireland though

That's the argument you're putting forward.

Why should any other country in the world be able to "exploit" their resources and use them in synergy any more than we should be able to?

vkid

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There is a huge gap between provincial and international rugby. Just because Leinster are capable of near dominating European rugby doesn't mean that Ireland can do the same at international level if they copy the same gameplan.

+1.

JustinDee

Tox56 wrote: »

Whilst that is obviously subjective, we could be so much better than we are. We have the players to play like Leinster, and be the best team in NH, but we don't.

Playing like Leinster in RaboDirect Pro12 or the two ERC comps and playing like Leinster in the Six Nations or RWC are actually different propositions. There is, as another poster points out, a considerable gap between this level of comps and international level.

The Six Nations has not even begun yet you appear to have written off the Irish team. Unfortunately the other five "NH" teams haven't.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

(A+B+C) > A+B+C for Scotland/ Wales/ Italy/ Argentina / AN Other country
(A+B+C) < A+B+C for Ireland though

That's the argument you're putting forward.

Why should any other country in the world be able to "exploit" their resources and use them in synergy any more than we should be able to?

How exactly did I say that we are less than the sum of our parts? All I said is that just because Leinster are good at the provincial level, it doesn't mean Ireland will be good at the international one; I mentioned nothing about the remaining provinces.

Provincial success does not equate to success on the international stage. It should be a good indicator that we will be competitive but, its nothing more.

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

Playing like Leinster in RaboDirect Pro12 or the two ERC comps and playing like Leinster in the Six Nations or RWC are actually different propositions. There is, as another poster points out, a considerable gap between this level of comps and international level.

The Six Nations has not even begun yet you appear to have written off the Irish team. Unfortunately the other five "NH" teams haven't.

please try and answer the above question with regards to this.

What makes the gap "closeable" for the Scottish teams? The Italian teams etc?

Yet makes it impossible to breach for the Irish teams?

This supposed gap is bandied around week in week out, they're the same players!

A team is the sum of its players. A poor team is worth less than the sum of its players, and a great team is worth more than the sum of its players.

What makes other international teams able to perform better than the sum of their parts? Why don't we have that?

I've never once heard a legitimate answer for that.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

How exactly did I say that we are less than the sum of our parts? All I said is that just because Leinster are good at the provincial level, it doesn't mean Ireland will be good at the international one; I mentioned nothing about the remaining provinces.

Provincial success has previously not equated to success on the international stage. It should be a good indicator that we will be competitive but, its nothing more.

fyp

please do not imply that results infer causation, especially considering your diatribe on the implications of correlation and causation earlier in the week.

The question has been redefined above, if you'd care to attempt to answer it, logically and rationally, I'd be pretty impressed.

JustinDee

Deleted User wrote: »

please try and answer the above question with regards to this.

What makes the gap "closeable" for the Scottish teams? The Italian teams etc?

Yet makes it impossible to breach for the Irish teams?

This supposed gap is bandied around week in week out, they're the same players!

A team is the sum of its players. A poor team is worth less than the sum of its players, and a great team is worth more than the sum of its players.

What makes other international teams able to perform better than the sum of their parts? Why don't we have that?

I've never once heard a legitimate answer for that.

What have the Scots and Italians won apart from a game or two each season and why are they the apparent and sudden model for success?
What gap have they closed exactly? I'd like to see the same question above asked were Scotland or Italy as one of the tournament favourites (since you bring them up as examples). There are many reasons that see through an underdog winning a game.

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

What have the Scots and Italians won apart from a game or two each season and why are they the apparent and sudden model for success?
What gap have they closed exactly? I'd like to see the same question above asked were Scotland or Italy as one of the tournament favourites (since you bring them up as examples). There are many reasons that see through an underdog winning a game.

so you can't answer the question.

Italy beat France last year, yet their provincial teams get mullered week in week out in the Pro12.

ed7890

Do any other Heineken Cup team have such a high concentration of homegrown internationals as Leinster?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

please try and answer the above question with regards to this.

What makes the gap "closeable" for the Scottish teams? The Italian teams etc?

Yet makes it impossible to breach for the Irish teams?

This supposed gap is bandied around week in week out, they're the same players!

A team is the sum of its players. A poor team is worth less than the sum of its players, and a great team is worth more than the sum of its players.

What makes other international teams able to perform better than the sum of their parts? Why don't we have that?

I've never once heard a legitimate answer for that.

What international teams, do you propose, are performing as greater than the sum of their players?

We have a similar quality of eligible players as Wales and are a similarily good international team because of this.

We have a slightly better quality of eligible players as England and are a slightly better international team because of this.

We have a slightly worse quality of eligible players as France and are a slightly worse international team because of this.

Of course there will be the occasional game/run of games where a team performs above/below their own standard but, I've no clue as to the basis of your hypothesis.

skregs

JustinDee wrote: »

There is, as another poster points out, a considerable gap between this level of comps and international level.

There is also, a massive difference in the on-field performances of Leinster players on the pitch for Leinster and on the pitch for Ireland. You can talk about different levels all you want, but that doesn't explain the shoddy tactics, poor team selection and lack of intelligence the Ireland team are burdened with.

The reason Leinster/Munster players play better for their provinces is because both Tony and Joe are better coaches than Kidney. He is absolutely killing the team every time they go out onto the pitch.

JustinDee

skregs wrote: »

There is also, a massive difference in the on-field performances of Leinster players on the pitch for Leinster and on the pitch for Ireland. You can talk about different levels all you want, but that doesn't explain the shoddy tactics, poor team selection and lack of intelligence the Ireland team are burdened with.

The reason Leinster/Munster players play better for their provinces is because both Tony and Joe are better coaches than Kidney. He is absolutely killing the team every time they go out onto the pitch.

If Ireland won the Six Nations, had a good tour, won Nov tests and earned the rankings this year for top four RWC seed spots and set up 2012/13 nicely for further development of the squad, would you still moan about them?

JustinDee

Deleted User wrote: »

so you can't answer the question.

Italy beat France last year, yet their provincial teams get mullered week in week out in the Pro12.

I did answer the question. There are more than a few reasons that an underdog team can win a test.
You appear to be saying Italian sides are finding it easier to win than in the RaboDirect Pro12? A tad subjective, wouldn't you say?

You're holding Italy's performances as somehow setting the standard for the type of play you want to see. As I asked, apart from one or two wins each Six Nations by Scotland or Italy, how are they examples to be setting alongside to?

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

I did answer the question. There are more than a few reasons that an underdog team can win a test.
You appear to be saying Italian sides are finding it easier to win than in the RaboDirect Pro12? A tad subjective, wouldn't you say?

You're holding Italy's performances as somehow setting the standard for the type of play you want to see. As I asked, apart from one or two wins each Six Nations by Scotland or Italy, how are they examples to be setting alongside to?

I don't appear to be doing anything, please avoid putting words in my mouth.

My point was that other teams have managed to improve upon their individual teams performances, while we seem to take a step back at international level.

I gave an example of Italy beating France, rising to a level above what the Italian sides were able to do.

Ireland play below the level of it's constituent teams. - That is the point.

profitius

jacothelad wrote: »

Ireland played some of the best rugby they have produced in their history when EOS was coach. His bad year of 2008 isn't much different to the last two of Kidney's 6Ns. As for not winning anything, we were a POC dropped restart away from a GS and his win\loss ratio is far superior to Kidney's. The problem with EOS and Ireland is that he was allowed to stay too long and became institutionalised to what he had created.

EOS is technically a good coach but flawed. There must have been a reason why a coach with such a good record failed to win anything. Listening to him the other day revealed to me why.

I remember one year EOS saying that Ireland passed the ball the most as opposed to kicking the ball the most in the previous season.

On a couple of occasions Ireland lost the championship on points difference. On the last day of the championship, away to Italy, Ireland played great rugby and were scoring for fun (until the Italians got a few tries back late on). They needed to win by a big margin and they did. You'd have to wonder why they didn't play like that more often.

Another frustrating thing about Ireland is their inability to put teams away. The Aussies look to win by the highest possible margin when they go in front. Ireland look to hang on for the win.

smurphy29

I hear you Kenna Shaggy Topic. To the erstwhile Captain and JustinDee, I don't think anyone is claiming that the Leinster team could take on all comers in the 6N. But if you take the core of that team and strengthen it with the likes of Best, O'Connell, Ryan, Ferris, Trimble and Bowe, and play to a similar gameplan, then I think it would be successful.

Leinster have a style of play that is clearly identifiable as the Leinster style. Phenomenal aggression at the breakdown, flooding the support channels, backrow coming on to the ball from depth, offloads onto trailer runners, all that stuff. There's nothing overly complicated about it - it's just good, accurate play. When you watch them you can see they are a well coached side where everyone has bought into the mode of play.

Can the same be said of Ireland? Do they have a style of play that you can readily identify? Do the players look like they are on the same page as one another? Does accurate breakdown work and passing and playing to a clear gameplan suddenly become ineffective at international level? A number of players recently admitted that their attacking play was poor and predictable at the RWC. Word is they're looking to address it this Six Nations. Let's see.

JustinDee

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't appear to be doing anything, please avoid putting words in my mouth

Its the subject (me, for example) who perceives what you appear to be posting. Not you. Nobody putting any words into your mouth at all. Its what you're appearing to say.

Deleted User wrote: »

My point was that other teams have managed to improve upon their individual teams performances, while we seem to take a step back at international level.

I gave an example of Italy beating France, rising to a level above what the Italian sides were able to do.

Ireland play below the level of it's constituent teams. - That is the point.

Every now and again the teams you mention have managed pull a win out of the bag. This is hardly the same as Ireland narrowly losing out last year (Cardiff was hardly comprehensive for the Welsh, French loss the same). This makes Ireland worse off than Italy or Scotland? What if Ireland win this year? Still worse off?

According to you, the players/teams doing well at ERC level are not managing the same at international level. Well, I have explained about the difference in levels being a factor here.

Performances are WORLDS apart between province and country.

We've seen Munster, Ulster and Leinster this season put in defining performances. Ulster v Clermont, Munster v Northhampton, Leinster v Bath.
Players playing with confidence, not afraid to try things, incredibly dogged when needs be, but able to play with a flourish when required.

Results come from the back of good performances, we'd all be happier to see our team play good rugby and fail when another team simply manages to do it better than us on the day, instead of whimpering from game to game being afraid to play any rugby at all in case it costs us a precious notch in the bedpost.

The metric that Kidney gets judged on at the end of the day is his wins column, not his performance column. But there's surely the most obvious connection that the poor performances that we've been putting in have attributed to our poor results in the period? Albeit with some outlying good performances v England and Australia last year.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The New Zealand game was really positive. I agree. As was the 2011 England game. As was the Australia game in the world cup. Probably our 3 best team performances under Kidney.

The one constant in those games being a Reddan-Sexton axis. How they haven't been trusted together more is beyond me.

This is true. But I wonder if there isn't more to it? We seem to be able to pull out one performance and result per tournament/round of games we play in. They are normally the backs to the wall, no one is giving us a chance, let's show them type games. It's been true of the last 3 series we've been in, i.e. NZ in the 2010 AIs, England in the 2011 6Ns and Oz in the RWC. I'm not sure what that says per se. Does it mean Kidney can only get the team riled up and firing on all cylinders in those types of situations? Is it coincidence?

JustinDee wrote: »

If Ireland won the Six Nations, had a good tour, won Nov tests and earned the rankings this year for top four RWC seed spots and set up 2012/13 nicely for further development of the squad, would you still moan about them?

That's a big if. Of course we would all be delighted. But we'd all be very surprised as well given that we haven't looked even remotely capable of doing that over the last 2+ years. We can't comment on what hasn't yet happened. Only what has. And what has happened hasn't exactly been inspiring.