Promotion in Ireland **mod warning - first post**

Before I go on, DO NOT mention names here in a negative sense. You will get a 3-day ban.

Daycentbill

I'm starting this thread because, in my opinion, the band promotion system in Ireland is broke. I want to discuss this. How can we do something about it? It has always been about the quick buck and taking young bands for a ride. Daycent Bill, one of our regulars is a promoter that I respect but we do have our occasional run ins. I was going to respond to his quite large post here, but I don't want that thread to go off topic, so I'm starting a new thread.

He's not the bad guy here btw. I don't know another promoter that would come on and discuss this, so fair balls to him.

Daycentbill wrote: »

Ok Im sorry about this lads, but how many of ye can name a well know regurlar gig night in Dublin that pays unsigned bands to play for 20/25minutes or less, I can't actually think of one.

its very hard to win in this business, if you run a successful unsigned band night and make sure there a good crowd there for the bands to play to its not good enough anymore.

Look at this way I've been playing in bands for years, and I know well that unsigned bands never get paid for a 20/30 minute slots, not even for festivals etc thats just the way is is. for example i know 2 well know Irish Bands who played Reading festival in the UK this year and they barely got 50euros each for playing, so they had to pay all there travel costs etc but they did it as there trying to promote themselves to brigger crowds, so if one of the biggest festivals in the UK can barely play well known acts how do you think small time promoters can do it for ''unheard of unsigned bands''.

I think most people dont realize how much work goes into these nights so they reckon if they play they should get paid but actually what were doing at these nights is providing a platform for unsigned bands so they get there name out there by playing to as many people as possible. FREE PROMOTION!!

And now to make things even tougher for us as the bar has brought in new rental fees, €150 extra rental fees per night, if you don't believe me call them today and try and ask to book a night.

So if we had to pay 9 bands that played that night, just say for example we paid each band 30euros which is nothing anyways for one band, so 9 x 30 is €270 plus €150 extra for the venue, so this doesn't leave any profit and there a good chance of making a loss on other nights.

So any nights ran like this wouldn't last long as the promoters wouldn't be arsed making sure the night runs/goes well if there not making any profit!!

I genuinely believe people need an incentive to do something, obviously one of ours is too make bit of profit for the hard work we put in and also to have some purpose in life in this downturn economy.

And unsigned bands incentive should be to play to as many people in the one venue as possible and be happy that there are people running these nights and lots of people get to hear ye.

Lastly we'll try run our nights the best and fairest way possible, and will always try and help bands out in any way we can. If the venue was FREE of charge obviously for our gigs that weren't competitions we d pay bands but these new charges it not possible to make it work on a regular basis.

Also we have taking into account your submissions so now we ll provide some free drinks/tokens/Free band photo-shoots/FREE rehearsal time in practice rooms/ to bands that are bringing 10 or more fans with them on the night. that the best we can do!!

You know what? I disagree. Entirely.

For a bands creativity and growth, you should never have 9 bands on a bill in a night. Start at 8pm (guessing here) finish at eleven in most places, that's 3 hours for 9 bands, 180 minutes total means 20 minutes each including setting up, clearing and leaving the stage.

Why so many? So they bring in 10 people each minimum? So that gives you 90 punters paying in a fiver each gives you 450 quid.

So if we had to pay 9 bands that played that night, just say for example we paid each band 30euros which is nothing anyways for one band, so 9 x 30 is €270 plus €150 extra for the venue, so this doesn't leave any profit and there a good chance of making a loss on other nights.

So any nights ran like this wouldn't last long as the promoters wouldn't be arsed making sure the night runs/goes well if there not making any profit!!

For a start, that gives you 30 quid after paying the bands. Sure 30 quid is nothing, but it covers their petrol or beer money. Or you could pay the venue and get €300 quid for yourself. I take it then the bands you book get all their equipment/rehearsal space/strings/transport for free.

As for promoters not being arsed, well, if you're primarily in promoting new bands for the money, get yourself a real job. You'll never earn enough from it. Instead, you'll stifle them. The same 10 mates come to each gig, listen to the same 6 songs and then get bored, stop coming and you lose your audience.

Why not try something creative instead? Look at what Keiron Black does with the King Kong Club? No entry fee for band or punter (bar the final), he sorts himself out through sponsorship, they have ridiculously good prizes. The prize in 2010 was nine days recording and mixing in Serra Vista, Portugal in Boz Boorer’s (Morrissey’s guitarist and musical director) residential studio, with all expenses (flights, transfers, accommodation, food and drink) paid for and use of all Boz’s array of vintage musical equipment.

How was he able to manage it without charging bands or punters (bar the final)???

At least you're beginning to offer some things, but right now you look like you're out for yourself and not the best intention of the bands.

We're all living in a hell hole of a recession at the moment, the only we'll able to get out of it for ourselves is to be creative with the talents at our disposal. That means the old systems don't work. We can't charge punters or get bands to sell tickets anymore. We need to develop new systems that nurture creativity instead of looking for the quick buck.

Oh, and lastly, free promotion? You can't really be serious. How are you pushing your nights? Do you get them air-time on local radio? Do you set up facebook events? What do you do except print posters and tell them to bring their mates?

We need to come up with new creative ways of promotion in Ireland

JustAddWater

Your thread is on the money... Unfortunately I dont have the answer. I don't think it'll be a quick fix either but change is well overdue

The Master

Pappa Dolla, great thread and I have to say I agree with pretty much everything you've said so far.

Fair play to Daycentbill for giving his side of things, It's been a fair few years since I played or was involved in organising an unsigned band night and your post was a real eye opener for me.

As Pappa Dolla has said, 9 bands in one night in the space of 3 or so hours seems mental to me but I'm sure there are bands out there delighted to get a 20min slot anywhere.

One of the bands I'm involved with will soon find ourselves back on this scene searching for gigs to promote our own music but I honestly can't see us working with the above model as standard practice for a gig.

I'll admit I don't have a better solution myself but the current situation doesn't seem to be of any benefit to the bands at all.

raindog.promo

So if we had to pay 9 bands that played that night, just say for example we paid each band 30euros which is nothing anyways for one band, so this doesn't leave any profit and there a good chance of making a loss on other nights.

Thank you and good night.

raindog.promo

raindog.promo wrote: »

Thank you and good night.

To be fair, I have no problem with people making profit. I have a problem with people making profit at the expense of the bands.
One reason profit has to be included is that time you book a room thinking you'll get it at least 50% full and 7 people turn up due to influences outside your control.
Promoters need to make a profit so they can put on riskier gigs, they have that cushion behind them. But the profit should not come from the band.

At the end of the day, if you do a job, you should get paid. I don't understand why (and it usually happens in this order) The Bar get paid, The Soundman gets paid, The Promoter gets paid, and if there's anything left, the band gets paid. This is the system that needs changing. I'm going to spitballing ideas out as they come to me, often, I'll be wrong, but I don't care. It's just thinking out loud.

In Cyberspace

Where no-one can hear you scream will let you flesh out ideas

raindog.promo

But the attitude that if someone else has to be stiffed for me to make some profit is something I'd be very wary of. Also the "sure it's only 30 quid, what's that to anyone? I may as well take it." rings alarm bells. Not someone who I would leave the arrangements to as it doesn't ring out amicable arrangement but if a stroke can be pulled, it shall.

I've been paid for gigs where other bands on the bill were told that no money was made. So was money made? was it split evenly or was the lion's share witheld? In fact, no band knew how many people had come, what the amount of money taken in was or how much was paid for the venue. Things you learn starting out and probably one of the first jobs of a manager having to be a hard assed **** to be paid what is owed.

I agree. Why should anyone get stiffed? If you do a job, you get paid for it. Soundmen and bars don't take a cut, but a flat fee. The bars taking a flat fee is one thing I've never understood.

We (bands and promoters) are bringing you business.

The more people we get in for you, the better it is for everybody (especially you).

If we're able to pay the bands instead of the bars (who get entertainers to not only pay for free, but who pay for the pleasure!), would it raise the quality of the bands? ie; if you're unprofessional/turn up late/drunk/high or are just unrehearsed and sound like garbage we won't hire you again?

So basically one way is to start dealing with venues differently. Stop playing pay to play venues? Petition the venues? I mean if a promoter, instead of having to pay the bar the room charge of €150 (for example), guaranteed it to be split amongst the bands (at a minimum) instead, would that not work better?

As I said above, spitballing here, feel free to add in/amend

Talaghn

Ok sooo I have just read the whole of this thread....

I have worked with The King Kong Club for the last 2 years... We put on a Gameshow type battle of the bands that the bands get to come to us and play for free and also its free in with drinks promo at the bar...

We only ever charge in the venue when its a semi final or final(just to correct papa) Upstairs.. because its the big venue. We never keep the money... It usually goes into prizes for the bands.... or paying for the room. Its also never more than 8 euro on the door.

We NEVER ask the bands to pay..... we do ask them to bring people with them because, it benefits them as well as it creating an atmosphere on the night. We also provide them, with a back line. Its judged by Clap O Meter so the more people you have there to make the most noise.. the better.. because essentially you win to go into the next round... That is part of the incentive as well as the prizes that you will get. There are a few bands that get annoyed at this kind of thing and the word "popularity contest" gets thrown around a lot..

Even though music is creative and everyone loves it and is passionate about it etc etc, when you enter into the realm of wanting to "be a star" or "make it somewhere" MUSIC IS A POPULARITY CONTEST. The more people that know you the more people will listen to you and the more people get to hear you.. and that starts at home with your parents and friends and ex's and your dog and/or cat wearing "I love *insert band name here*" tee's

We do get sponsorship and all i can say about that is that my partner in crime works very hard to work with our sponsors and give them back promotion for their donation. Again ALL of out donated money goes to prizes... mostly the main prize.. we dont take any of the money.

There are other ways as you can see to get an incentive to a band without blackmailing them and saying the HAVE to bring in 10 people.... You are ONLY gonna be able to get bands that are local or have some sort of friends in the area that MIGHT be able to bring their friends... *popularity contest*

I have also started my own music networking night Noisy Plug Sessions....

I cant say the bands dont have to pay for anything.... because I am getting bands to swap around the country to different venues... BUT I have and will give money from my own pocket to a band if i have it for petrol or parking. I also try and make sure that the local band in the town brings the back line or I have a back line provided.

There has been 2 "swap gigs" so far in Galway.. and one here. I / we dont have to pay for the venue in (Kelly's Bar) Galway but we also dont get to charge into the venue either and if i did.. I would be giving the bands some form or cash straight out. The Only thing i would take is my expenses. The Money that I put in there in the first place to get it running.

As for Dublin, The first venue was The Grand Social... I had to pay for the venue and all my printing costs and all the other costs that come along with deciding to start to run nights like this and knowing you CAN lose money.... But thats not what you do them for... You do them because you think our musicians should be treated like the are in the rest of Europe.

I wasnt able to give money to any of the bands that played on that first night... But I did my best and I bought a few boxes of beer.... The only other thing i can give them.. which is the point of Noisy Plug Sessions... is that they get to go to a new town and play to a new crowd of people.. brought to them by the local towns acts. This then will A. build up their fan base.. B. Break the ice in the town that they havent played before/ tried to play and there was nobody there and C. (the most essential part) Unite music i Ireland and maybe make Irish music attractive for radio play and tv shows and build a new economy in an area that we are ****ing brilliant at... and that is The Arts and Culture!

raindog.promo

I imagine that those at the bottom of the pile have no power and have to do what they can, therefore they will be preyed on by certain individuals and helped as much as possible by certain other individuals. When a band prove they can bring a crowd, then they can call the shots to a greater extent. For some people (venus owners) it's a love of music and sharing that music with others, for (I suspect a greater percentage) others it's just business and they will take the best deal they can get for the best monetary return in the short term.

I never really understood the whole pay to play thing and the gripe some people have with it.

Honestly thinking about it (and feel free to get rid of this part if it leads the thread off topic) I imagine if you put together a small independent film and want to show it, you could ask certain establishments if they would like to show it and pay you for the priviledge. Or you can rent somewhere out and screen it yourself and charge people in to see it. From that you pay the rental of the venue and whoever else needs to be paid (projectionist etc.)

I don't see that being any different from putting on bands. If the film will draw a crowd then venues will pay to show it.

If you want to promote your film to get more people to watch the full feature you might pay other venues to show a bit of the film likewise a band may play for free somewhere in order to drum up more interest.

Have local/small bands ever been paid for going into a radio station to do an interview and play? should they be? if not, why not?

There's a lot of different ways to look at what's going on.
The main outlook seems to be that 1) venues provide a band as entertainment as can be seen in the Mezz (hotel bar?) which pays bands to play or 2) venues provide a room which can be rented out and don't care what happens once they get paid for the room.

SOME OTHER RANDOM THOUGHTS

I personally believe bands should promote and organise their own nights. Then employ someone to promote and organise if touring.

The person booking the bands should be paid by the venue and the bands split any money that is made on the door.

Nights hosting a few bands should vet them as from personal experience, you
don't want to go to a band night put on by *some* greedy bastard who takes any 5/6/7 random bands and sticks them on the stage no matter how ****e they are.

I think the situation will stay the same though unless more people start going out to hear live bands. Also, bands are taking these gigs and unless they all boycott them they'll continue.

Musicians need a union

*You know who you are.

You raise some good points, but it's late and I need to sleep. I'll get back to you on the morrow

ElectricTaurus

Hi all,



interesting thread lots of good arguments here.



I want to play the devil's advocate here, almost 2 years back I organized a gig in The Pint, the place was a dump, the PA was bad as you can imagine, no monitors, the desk was on the stage side ,no backline at all. Was free of charge, we used it a couple of times and then drop it.



Few months later the guys from Live Unsigned start to organize gigs there, and BANG!!!! Everything change, new PA, Monitors, backline, and good sound guys.......then the least you expected, Metal Nights, Doom Day, and now......Orange Goblin are going to play there. You have to give credits to these guys that they resurrected a dump to a venue that attracts international promoters that will use Irish bands as opening acts.


I played with my band twice the Live unsigned nights, the first time we were able to have 4/6 people with us, I played and nobody complained that we did not have the 10 guys, second times we had around 20/25 people.

The way I see these competitions (King Kong,Bandslam Etc.) as a musician is that they give the possibility to new bands to show their talents and to cut their teeth on stage. I don't really care about the prize even if some are good, I have fun to play in front a full room and help us to test our set, if at the end of the night a guy come over to me and say "you guys are good", it makes my day.

Also they help you to know other bands, goods bonds with fellow artists came out from those nights.

My two cents, the guys of Live Unsigned are musicians, they have bands they know what you have to go through as an independent band, if they make a cut of the door I know 100% is going to be invested in their music, they will not become rich out of it.

The promotion problem is not only Ireland, I ‘am Italian our drummer is Argentinian, I know few bands from Spain and England and the issue is everywhere the same.

If you are a new band on the scene these nights are great to gain confidence on stage, after play them few times and then you can move on.

Matt

Electric Taurus

maccored

i agree with the promoter fella. Why the hell should someone take the risk of putting on a gig praying to make 30 quid out of it. Or why should a promoter put on a gig if he isnt to make some profit out of it.

Plus - why dont bands have balls anymore? If a band doesnt like the idea of a promoter organising their gig, paying the venue and providing the backline, then that band should go out and organise their own gigs .... thats what most bands do anyway.

keyboardcook

Do what we are doing. Self help. By a community, for a community.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76872710#post76872710

For young bands and musicians it is all about getting an opportunity to play, and for the chance to meet like minded people by which they can set their own standards.

Promoters are what they are. I work with quite a few as I play for a living. But it cannot be all take take take- in any business.

It is up to experienced players to help nurture young talent.

Isn't that how a society is supposed to work after all?

No point getting angry or disillusioned with what is currently the system. If you feel it needs to change, then become part of the solution.

That's my tuppence worth.

kc

paudgenator

In Australia (where we lived for the past few years) pubs often have "Open Mic" nights. No cost to performers, & no obligation to bring a certain number of supporters. No cover charge. Acts are 20/30 min slots and pubs happy to have extra customers in for food/drinks. Performers usually bring in supporters Some have extra promos for prizes.

Other venues charge a cover charge, but the performers (usually 4 a night) split that between them. So the more supporters they can bring in, the greater the payment to the performers The venue keeps money from food & drinks.

There's very little here for under 18's, would love to see more opportunities for them. I know Swan Lane in Navan have nights - anyone know of another venue?