Dublin City Cameras

kirving

Hi guys,

Just wondering how long CCTV images would be stored from CCTV around Dublin city centre? A few days or would it be far longer, like months or years?
I thought here would be the best place to ask, since I believe some cameras are operated by the Gardai.

If there's a reason why this info can't be shared, fair enough. I can PM a mod if needs be to explain my reason for asking.

Thanks,

Kev

Mutz

Probably not great to put this info on public forum

Shield

Hi there.

I don't believe that information is released by Dublin City Council. I know it's certainly not released by the Gardaí. You could send in an FOI request to the Council and see what kind of reply you get.

kirving

Thanks for the replies. Given the cheap cost of storage these days, I'll try my luck, but it's been a month at this stage. I'm not even sure if there are any camera covering the exact location either.

Zambia

Go to the location stand and look for cameras.

Eru

Most companies wont entertain a request from a person walking in of the street and most arent going to say how long their system stores for obvious reasons

kirving

Was wondering about DCC or Garda camera specifically, I wouldn't expect business in the area to still have footage from so long ago.

kub

That is a question for the data commissioner, in the CCTV world there are general rules etc, that is all that can be said on this forum, again I would encourage you to contact the data commissioner.

kub

kub wrote: »

That is a question for the data commissioner, in the CCTV world there are general rules etc, that is all that can be said on this forum, again I would encourage you to contact the data commissioner.

All he will say is that they have to comply with the rules of storing of personal data.

BrianD

According to the Data Commissioner:

"The images captured should be retained for a maximum of 28 days, except where the image identifies an issue and is retained specifically in the context of an investigation of that issue."

there see,s to be two sets of cameras in action in Dublin. Some have a Garda logo on them and others are council owned (do Gardai have access to these?)

I'm not aware of the Gardai having any opt-out of the general cctv rule above and, even so, there would be no reason for it not to be in the public domain.

On this, If anybody knows that AGS is routinely storing images for longer than this with no legal basis then they should publish here as a civic duty!

parsi

Eru wrote: »

Most companies wont entertain a request from a person walking in of the street and most arent going to say how long their system stores for obvious reasons

They mightn't but they should and often end up having to stump up the info in the end once the data protection commissioner gets involved.

Dataprotection.ie has a good section on CCTV and case studies in their annual reports.

Eru

parsi wrote: »

They mightn't but they should

Why? Companies have far better things for their staff to do than spend all day burning footage because some random person may have lost their phone at some point near their door in the past 24 hours or are simple being nosy.

parsi wrote: »

often end up having to stump up the info in the end once the data protection commissioner gets involved.

Your not entitled to know about the system, your only entitled to make a FoI request when you KNOW you were on camera and can provide details of where and when. You must make the request in writing and may be charged a fee. To qualify as personal data the image in question must be identifiable. A dot in the background doesnt qualify.

BrianD wrote: »

According to the Data Commissioner:

"The images captured should be retained for a maximum of 28 days, except where the image identifies an issue and is retained specifically in the context of an investigation of that issue."

there see,s to be two sets of cameras in action in Dublin. Some have a Garda logo on them and others are council owned (do Gardai have access to these?)

I'm not aware of the Gardai having any opt-out of the general cctv rule above and, even so, there would be no reason for it not to be in the public domain.

On this, If anybody knows that AGS is routinely storing images for longer than this with no legal basis then they should publish here as a civic duty!

The above is not a rule or a law, its a suggestion. For AGS or any other agency to be committing an offence you need to point out where its says they cannot keep footage beyond 28 days. In fact the commissioners own site states that retention for 28 days is "an industry standard" for pubs, etc but by no means a requirement and doesnt pass any comment on a company retaining footage for 31 days. (see case study 11).

The law governing this area of CCTV simple states "shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for" and whats is necessary is a case by case basis. I would imagine AGS could easily justify a longer period than 28 days.

Eru

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Was wondering about DCC or Garda camera specifically, I wouldn't expect business in the area to still have footage from so long ago.

If the Gardai can help they will, just call in and explain why, where and when but as per my comment above, dont expect them to sit watching or even burning hours upon hours of footage trying to see where you dropped your wallet or phone, etc.

parsi

Eru wrote: »

Why? Companies have far better things for their staff to do than spend all day burning footage because some random person may have lost their phone at some point near their door in the past 24 hours or are simple being nosy.



Your not entitled to know about the system, your only entitled to make a FoI request when you KNOW you were on camera and can provide details of where and when. You must make the request in writing and may be charged a fee. To qualify as personal data the image in question must be identifiable. A dot in the background doesn't qualify.




The above is not a rule or a law, its a suggestion. For AGS or any other agency to be committing an offence you need to point out where its says they cannot keep footage beyond 28 days. In fact the commissioners own site states that retention for 28 days is "an industry standard" for pubs, etc but by no means a requirement and doesnt pass any comment on a company retaining footage for 31 days. (see case study 11).

The law governing this area of CCTV simple states "shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for" and whats is necessary is a case by case basis. I would imagine AGS could easily justify a longer period than 28 days.

Oh dear, another person who doesn't understand what FOI is and the area it covers.

Anyways

http://dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=m&fn=/documents/guidance/cctv.htm

"Access Requests

Any person whose image has been recorded has a right to be given a copy of the information recorded. To exercise that right, a person must make an application in writing. A data controller may charge up to €6.35 for responding to such a request and must respond within 40 days."

So yes, a company does have to spend the day burning footage if a person believes that they have been recorded. Doesn't matter if it's out of a point of principle or being nosy or indeed trying to recover property.

Of course all this Third Secret of Fatima rubbish is a bit unfair to the OP who was trying to get a decent answer.

Eru

so what your saying is I was right?

That the data commissioner will NOT make a company tell anyone about their CCTV system, recording devices, camera positions or how long the recording is kept like I said?

That you will need to make a written request and cannot simple walk in off the street and ask like I said?

That you can only request footage of yourself and not just about the systems recordings in general like I said?

That 'The act' refered to by the data commissioner doesnt state a maximum time limit like I said?

The act in question by the way is the Data Protection Act 1988.

If you read section 4, it states:
"An individual making a request under this section shall supply the data controller concerned with such information as he may reasonably require in order to satisfy himself of the identity of the individual and to locate any relevant personal data or information." So yes, you do need to provide details of where and when you walked past the camera in question.

If you read section 1 it states:
“personal data” means data relating to a living individual who can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information in the possession of the data controller;" This is confirmed on the data commissioners site which states "Only Recognisable images captured by CCTV systems are 'personal data'." (http://dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=m&fn=%2Fdocuments%2Fguidance%2Fcctv.htm) so therefore no, you cant just randomly demand footage covering a possible time limit on the basis that some dot in the corner of the cameras vision could be you.

and I answered the OP with a straight forward and honest suggestion to resolve whatever issue it is they are having but without knowing where, when or why its impossible to suggest anything more.

BrianD

Eru wrote: »

The law governing this area of CCTV simple states "shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for" and whats is necessary is a case by case basis. I would imagine AGS could easily justify a longer period than 28 days.

But it certainly does not grant rights to AGS to record and maintain data for longer than this. They have no right to and I'd be interested to see any piece of legislation that allows them to. It's a democracy not a police surveillance state we live in.

BTW the Commissioner is quite clear on the maximum of 28 days. The exception being data that is being used and retained in an investigation.

Eru

BrianD wrote: »

But it certainly does not grant rights to AGS to record and maintain data for longer than this. They have no right to and I'd be interested to see any piece of legislation that allows them to. It's a democracy not a police surveillance state we live in.

BTW the Commissioner is quite clear on the maximum of 28 days. The exception being data that is being used and retained in an investigation.

Did you not read my quotes or links? The actual law covering data retention does not state a maximum limit. It merely states under Section 2(1)(c)(iv) that data "shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for". This is further proven on the commissioners own site where I quote "For a normal security system, it would be difficult to justify retention beyond a month" however it does NOT give a month or even 28 days a maximum. In case study 11 it clearly states that it accepted the company recording for 31 days (IE a calender month) and can be read here (http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?Docid=468&Catid=81&StartDate=1+January+2009&m=c)

In a free country you dont require a law to do something. Theres no law granting you permission to eat either. No law giving you permission to ask people questions. I could go on giving examples but it should be obvious.

So please, show me where keeping footage beyond 28 days is against any law either criminal or civil?

Im editing this to give a very simple reason how AGS can justify keeping footage beyond a month, complaints. People have 6 months to make complaints against Gardai so therefore footage of cell areas being kept for 6 months could be justified on that basis. Missing person cases would also justify keeping extended footage.

King Ludvig

Eru wrote: »

Did you not read my quotes or links? The actual law covering data retention does not state a maximum limit. It merely states under Section 2(1)(c)(iv) that data "shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for". This is further proven on the commissioners own site where I quote "For a normal security system, it would be difficult to justify retention beyond a month" however it does NOT give a month or even 28 days a maximum. In case study 11 it clearly states that it accepted the company recording for 31 days (IE a calender month) and can be read here (http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?Docid=468&Catid=81&StartDate=1+January+2009&m=c)

In a free country you dont require a law to do something. Theres no law granting you permission to eat either. No law giving you permission to ask people questions. I could go on giving examples but it should be obvious.

So please, show me where keeping footage beyond 28 days is against any law either criminal or civil?

Im editing this to give a very simple reason how AGS can justify keeping footage beyond a month, complaints. People have 6 months to make complaints against Gardai so therefore footage of cell areas being kept for 6 months could be justified on that basis. Missing person cases would also justify keeping extended footage.

As far as I remember the 28 days comes from the DPC's recommendations of 'best practice' for data controllers to comply with their data protection responsibilities. You're right in saying there's no legal basis for the 28 days, but if a complaint was to be brought to the DPC for the retention of data for more than a 'justified period of time' (depending on the purpose of the recording and whether it is being retained as part of a criminal investigation) the commissioner can issue an enforcement order requireing its destruction. Failure to comply with the order is a criminal offence.

There is supposed to be a new data protection directive coming from europe this year which should hopefully strenghten Irish data protection law.

Shield

Lads any chance you can take this to Legal Discussion? It doesn't really relate to ES anymore.

Eru

King Ludvig wrote: »

As far as I remember the 28 days comes from the DPC's recommendations of 'best practice' for data controllers to comply with their data protection responsibilities. You're right in saying there's no legal basis for the 28 days, but if a complaint was to be brought to the DPC for the retention of data for more than a 'justified period of time' (depending on the purpose of the recording and whether it is being retained as part of a criminal investigation) the commissioner can issue an enforcement order requireing its destruction. Failure to comply with the order is a criminal offence.

There is supposed to be a new data protection directive coming from europe this year which should hopefully strenghten Irish data protection law.

I agree

Shield,
Im not going to continue anymore, sorry for going so off track

Shield

Lads, I've asked for this to be taken to Legal Discussion and yet I've had to delete posts on it this morning.

I don't want to start handing out warnings or infractions. I'd rather this be done just by asking nicely, so I'll ask nicely again. Can you please take the DPA discussion part of this to Legal Discussion? If you want me to move breakaway posts into a new thread and move it to LD, just tell me which ones and either me or the others will do it.

Back on topic, and no discussion of this moderator direction, please!