Native Austrialians get shoe off Aussie PM Jullian Gillard

dochartaigh

Thought i would post this to stimulate some debate on native aussie land rights it has always been sickening to every fibre of being how native Australians are treated in THEIR own country, there culture is demonised, suppressed and battered to near extinction by the white supremest culture and education system that has brought destruction under the banner of improvement to every where it permeates. When a native Australian or any other indigenous person on this planet encounters the so called civilizing Christian education system and way of life they are quickly turned in into the typical average westerner a egocentric greed based poison addict. Their native Australian culture is one of the oldest and most precious on earth and any immigrating Irish (through no fault of their own) who contribute to this insidious indigenous ethnic cleansing and genocide should should remember their ancestors were once native aboriginals before the hatchet, sword and crucifix of colonial Christianity stamped out the old ways. Yes I have friends and relations who have immigrated their and I know a few who help out the Native Australian land rights but please be kind and respect these people if you happen to find yourself outback.

JustinDee

Pass the bucket...
You yourself are racially stereotyping them already as if they are only found in the bush or hinterland ("finding myself outback").
There are many many Aboriginal folk who live in the cities or main habitation areas and do well for themselves.

The story behind the protestors is they were kicking up over something a minister in her government said regarding the Tent Embassy in Canberra. What he said was twisted out of proportion and away they went.
Hardly the way to protest over such an innocuous comment.

I think you'll find you're behind the times a tad with how they are treated as Australians, particularly with the past five years in mind. You will also find that the majority of the bunch banging on the window and haranguing the car were not in fact Aboriginal but white.

Einhard

dochartaigh wrote: »

quickly turned in into the typical average westerner a egocentric greed based poison addict.

Ha! Insult me to my face, and then expect me to support your position? You have a a way to go yet before you get the hang of this persuasive arguing lark!

dochartaigh

Einhard wrote: »

Ha! Insult me to my face, and then expect me to support your position? You have a a way to go yet before you get the hang of this persuasive arguing lark!

Dont you think Einhard that would be a close summation of our aboriginal Irish ancestors would say if they seen someone today who been through the mind conditioning and brainwashing of the capatalist christian education system with the daily diet of soaps and tv adverts "a egocentric greed based poison addict". Im still trying to get away from my greed and poison addictions and its no easy Were prgrammed for greed and matieralism to satisfy the ego and the addiction to toxic food products, alcohol and tobacco etc all for the individual and f*** everyone else and the planet. Im sure our Irish aboriginal ancestors would stop having sex if they seen even a glimpse of us ;p

dochartaigh

JustinDee wrote: »

Pass the bucket...
You yourself are racially stereotyping them already as if they are only found in the bush or hinterland .
There are many many Aboriginal folk who live in the cities or main habitation areas and do well for themselves.

I think you'll find you're behind the times a tad with how they are treated as Australians, particularly with the past five years in mind. You will also find that the majority of the bunch banging on the window and haranguing the car were not in fact Aboriginal but white.

I respect you point justindee, Im glad to hear that if they are treated better and that there are some people trying to uphold aboriginal land rights
but to elaborate on my point they should not be forced or coerced into adopting western values or "to do well for themselves", of course it is a matter for individual choice and not the wholesale forced schooling that ive heard about. In general, im really concerned about protecting and conserving any indigenous culture throughout the earth, just from the point of veiw that they can teach us much REAL knowledge to make ourselves and the world we share with other life forms a better place, and the shoe incident just sparked me off on above rant

irishh_bob

those pics suggest the prime minister was quite shook up by the demonstrators , if an american president were pushed around like that , thier would have been blood on the floor

JustinDee

I don't think you understand the issues. Do you realise what the people who were attempting to assault their Prime Minister were actually - for want of a better word - protesting?

Your outrage, concern or whatever you want to call it, is out of touch. What is happening these days to make Aboriginal culture disappear? Education in the cities and settled communities? Nobody is co-erced into doing anything. If a pupil doesn't want to or their parents don't want them to attend a local school in town, you can bet your keyster they won't show.

You've got some research to do. Its clear that you're not exactly up-to-speed with Aboriginal, Torres Strait or Solly Island matters.

Jonny7

dochartaigh wrote: »

Dont you think Einhard that would be a close summation of our aboriginal Irish ancestors would say if they seen someone today who been through the mind conditioning and brainwashing of the capatalist christian education system with the daily diet of soaps and tv adverts "a egocentric greed based poison addict". Im still trying to get away from my greed and poison addictions and its no easy Were prgrammed for greed and matieralism to satisfy the ego and the addiction to toxic food products, alcohol and tobacco etc all for the individual and f*** everyone else and the planet. Im sure our Irish aboriginal ancestors would stop having sex if they seen even a glimpse of us ;p

I'm living in the same society as you and don't appear to have these problems.

That said, you are free to leave or live how you chose, the Amish don't have a problem with it.

dochartaigh

JustinDee wrote: »

I don't think you understand the issues. Do you realise what the people who were attempting to assault their Prime Minister were actually - for want of a better word - protesting?

Your outrage, concern or whatever you want to call it, is out of touch. What is happening these days to make Aboriginal culture disappear? Education in the cities and settled communities? Nobody is co-erced into doing anything. If a pupil doesn't want to or their parents don't want them to attend a local school in town, you can bet your keyster they won't show.

You've got some research to do. Its clear that you're not exactly up-to-speed with Aboriginal, Torres Strait or Solly Island matters.

Aye i agree that there has been much progress of late but my concern is more directed towards the cumulative effects of de-aboriginalising Australia, since the union jack (butchers apron!) was raised in 1788 in sandy cove.

Maybe your right Justin dee I dont fully understand the issues, as is the case with any geo political colonial land rights issue, which are by there nature complex, and clouded by the bias of western observers, but I have spoke to people who live there and my overall point stands is that the sum effects of western colonialism on that part of the world (or any other part - including Ireland) on the indigenous peoples is nothing the colonizer should be proud off and it about time we started showing some respect to these people and help them with their land rights issues, whether you or i live/lived in Australia or not.

SInce 1810 there has been a policy of absorbtion/assimillation where native austrialians were forced into mission stations and used as cheap labour. this only ceased in living memory in 1960 when the Western Australian Department of Native Affairs ceases forcefully taking Aboriginal children from their parents and sending them to missions.

Sadly this programme of forced de-indigenousizing still goes on in the amazon basin, largely in the hands of catholic missionaries who think they are doin good.

To conclude I fully support the protests and hope every right thinking Irish person whether living in austrialia or not does the same

BlaasForRafa

dochartaigh wrote: »

Aye i agree that there has been much progress of late but my concern is more directed towards the cumulative effects of de-aboriginalising Australia, since the union jack (butchers apron!) was raised in 1788 in sandy cove.

The aborigines had australia for thousands of years and did f**k all with it. The continent has been settled for just over 200 years and has been turned into one of the greatest nations on the planet. They should be glad that they don't have to wander the outback anymore living off grubs and quit their whining.

dochartaigh

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The aborigines had australia for thousands of years and did f**k all with it. The continent has been settled for just over 200 years and has been turned into one of the greatest nations on the planet. They should be glad that they don't have to wander the outback anymore living off grubs and quit their whining.

best estimates are 70,000 years and in my view makes them the most advanced intelligent peoples on this earth.

Im sure many "americans" would also say that their nations had been turned into one of the greatest nations in the planet following a similar campaign of ethnic genocide over a couple of centuries.

your tone and comment is sadly racist and typical of a tiny minority of non-native aussies

Einhard

dochartaigh wrote: »

best estimates are 70,000 years and in my view makes them the most advanced intelligent peoples on this earth.

I respect (but don't necessarily share) your views, but I'm curious as to how the simple fact of occupying a particular landmass for x amount of time makes any group "the most advanced intelligent peoples on earth." If that's true, then the aborigine peoples of the Americas are the least advanced and intelligent people on the planet. I don't subscribe that, but it follows on from your logic.

It seems to me like you've chosen a lifestyle to follow, are zealous in the pursuit of that choice (to the extent that you disdain all other modes of life), believe that the aborigines once followed a similar lifestyle, and have conflated all of this to the extent that the pre-European aborigine culture is somehow elevated beyond all others. Which, coincidentally enough, not only validates your own choice but makes it superior to other too., ie aborigine way of life is superor to Western ways, therefore my way is superior to yours, therefore I'm superior to you.

Perhaps I'm reading it incorrectly, but in that light your impassioned plea on behalf of the aborigines seems a tad solipsistic.

dochartaigh

Einhard wrote: »

I respect (but don't necessarily share) your views, but I'm curious as to how the simple fact of occupying a particular landmass for x amount of time makes any group "the most advanced intelligent peoples on earth." If that's true, then the aborigine peoples of the Americas are the least advanced and intelligent people on the planet. I don't subscribe that, but it follows on from your logic.

It seems to me like you've chosen a lifestyle to follow, are zealous in the pursuit of that choice (to the extent that you disdain all other modes of life), believe that the aborigines once followed a similar lifestyle, and have conflated all of this to the extent that the pre-European aborigine culture is somehow elevated beyond all others. Which, coincidentally enough, not only validates your own choice but makes it superior to other too., ie aborigine way of life is superor to Western ways, therefore my way is superior to yours, therefore I'm superior to you.

Perhaps I'm reading it incorrectly, but in that light your impassioned plea on behalf of the aborigines seems a tad solipsistic.

maybe i can clarify my position with respect, as an ethno/etheo-botanist, I have come to realise the significance and importance of all pre-colonial cultures whether aboriginal or not.

I am generally eclectic in the approach to my studies of indigenous cultures, but have come to sense a trend in that there does seem to be a correlation between the total centuries of the existance of any culture in any given landmass and the depth of their wisdom. This simply means that the longer any intact culture remains undistrurbed in any given area the more time they have to advance their knowledge of their immediate environs and adapt a sustainable lifestyle although this is not exclusively the case

There is much debate about history of paleo indians who were originally siberian indians who migrated across the beringla land bridge 12-15k years BP. I have done much research on south american ethno botany and yes I would agree with you that they are very advanced but this maybe due to the relative paucity of species in the amazon basin compared to the austrialian continent

no superior tone was meant in my comments, all I really mean is that aboriginal indigenous pre-colonial western cultures are more sustainable and we can learn much from their land practices particularly in the current context of wholesale ecosystem collapse in the face of a global epidemic of capitalist based resource exploitation.

We simply need to halt the destruction of indigenous cultures and ancestoral lands with associated habitats so that we may learn from them a more sustainable lifestyle

BlaasForRafa

best estimates are 70,000 years and in my view makes them the most advanced intelligent peoples on this earth.

That makes them probably the most useless people on earth. 70000 years and pretty much no technological advancement?

Im sure many "americans" would also say that their nations had been turned into one of the greatest nations in the planet following a similar campaign of ethnic genocide over a couple of centuries.

What happened to the american indians was a pity but would I take Manna-hata over Manhattan? No chance.

your tone and comment is sadly racist and typical of a tiny minority of non-native aussies

And you sound like a sandal wearing, tofu eating, tree-hugger who just can't wait to patronise so called indiginous peoples.

MadsL

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The continent has been settled for just over 200 years and has been turned into one of the greatest nations on the planet.

Thank you, one of the biggest laughs I've had all week...

JustinDee

dochartaigh wrote: »

Aye i agree that there has been much progress of late but my concern is more directed towards the cumulative effects of de-aboriginalising Australia, since the union jack (butchers apron!) was raised in 1788 in sandy cove.

Maybe your right Justin dee I dont fully understand the issues, as is the case with any geo political colonial land rights issue, which are by there nature complex, and clouded by the bias of western observers, but I have spoke to people who live there and my overall point stands is that the sum effects of western colonialism on that part of the world (or any other part - including Ireland) on the indigenous peoples is nothing the colonizer should be proud off and it about time we started showing some respect to these people and help them with their land rights issues, whether you or i live/lived in Australia or not.

SInce 1810 there has been a policy of absorbtion/assimillation where native austrialians were forced into mission stations and used as cheap labour. this only ceased in living memory in 1960 when the Western Australian Department of Native Affairs ceases forcefully taking Aboriginal children from their parents and sending them to missions.

Sadly this programme of forced de-indigenousizing still goes on in the amazon basin, largely in the hands of catholic missionaries who think they are doin good.

To conclude I fully support the protests and hope every right thinking Irish person whether living in austrialia or not does the same

Utter rubbish. You're 'protesting' against something that does not occur anymore. There is no "assimilation" or ethnic cleansing. I suggest you stick to a subject you actually know something about. Any Aboriginals I played rugby league with or hung out with would laugh at you. What on earth has the Amazon basin to do with Australia? Zilch.

Jorah

There really is no such thing as native in the context you speak of. Either they're all native (if born there) or none of them are native.

dochartaigh

JustinDee wrote: »

Utter rubbish. You're 'protesting' against something that does not occur anymore. There is no "assimilation" or ethnic cleansing. I suggest you stick to a subject you actually know something about. Any Aboriginals I played rugby league with or hung out with would laugh at you. What on earth has the Amazon basin to do with Australia? Zilch.

As I mentioned ethnic cleansing/ assimilation/genocide of indigenous austrialians was official government policy up until the 60s,

“estimated that 100,000 children were forcibly removed from their families. Official
records have been acknowledged by a number of State Governments to underestimate the number of children removed,”

(The Hon. D. Williams, Attorney-General, House of Representatives, Hansard 406, 10 February 1997.)

However, The failure to reform juvenile justice law and practice, the failure to remedy the social justice issues facing Indigenous youth, and the failure to respect the right of self-determination of Indigenous people means that in practice the human rights of Indigenous young people and their families are being abused means that there effects of the stolen generation are still evident.

The rate of custody per 100,000 of Indigenous young people is 1,333 compared to a rate of 52 for non-Indigenous youth. (National Police Custody Survey, August 1995, Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, Bringing them home, Report of the National Inquiry into the Separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children from Their
Families, AGPS, 1997, p. 492)

To be fair to the non-native austrialian government an official apology was made to stolen children generation by the governments churches across the country as recently as 1997, and the sad genocidal legacy is nothing compared to what when on in candada

It is widley report that the canadian indigenous holocaust seen the forced removal of up to 150,000 children from their families and a minimum of 50,000 children died in the residential school death camps, by forced exposure to disease and subsequent denial of treatment and other horrendus acts including sterilization, medical experiments, rape, murder and torture and this continued right up until 1984.

This was done under the cover government legislation and administered by Protestant and Catholic churches was the deliberate and persistent eradication of aboriginal people and their culture, and the conversion of any surviving native people to Christianity.
(HIDDEN FROM HISTORY: The Canadian Holocaust, The Untold Story of the Genocide of Aboriginal Peoples The Truth Commission into Genocide in Canada, 2001)

Your comment of rugger playing friends having no problem with this is a tad patronising, a bit like an english cricket playing saying his indigenous indian cricket friends have no problem with imperialist India.

the indigenous peoples of the amazon basin, as with all indigenous peoples of this earth in most cases continue to have, issues with land rights, resource exploitation and missionary activity etc , the very least they deserve is a bit of respect, if you find yourself in their country and less of some of the condescending and racist comments posted in this thread

JustinDee

As I suggested, try avoiding the blab on something you have not the slightest inkling of (rugby league and my own friends included).
An evening in Federal, NSW and your tune would change pronto.
Sanctimonious and subjectively regurgitated tosh aimed at flipping a guilt trip at anyone actually just getting on with their lives in a country you've obviously never even been to, is all this diatribe is. Especially in lauding some white hippies assaulting a PM.

JustinDee

And also quit avoiding every govt measure that has taken place on Aboriginal, Torres Strait and Solomon Islander issues since your convenient timeline ended, including the actual acts being passed by the very PM being attacked on Aussie day.

dochartaigh

JustinDee wrote: »

Utter rubbish. You're 'protesting' against something that does not occur anymore. There is no "assimilation" or ethnic cleansing. I suggest you stick to a subject you actually know something about. Any Aboriginals I played rugby league with or hung out with would laugh at you. What on earth has the Amazon basin to do with Australia? Zilch.

dochartaigh wrote: »

As I mentioned ethnic cleansing/ assimilation/genocide of indigenous austrialians was official government policy up until the 60s,

“estimated that 100,000 children were forcibly removed from their families. Official
records have been acknowledged by a number of State Governments to underestimate the number of children removed,”

(The Hon. D. Williams, Attorney-General, House of Representatives, Hansard 406, 10 February 1997.)

However, The failure to reform juvenile justice law and practice, the failure to remedy the social justice issues facing Indigenous youth, and the failure to respect the right of self-determination of Indigenous people means that in practice the human rights of Indigenous young people and their families are being abused means that there effects of the stolen generation are still evident.

The rate of custody per 100,000 of Indigenous young people is 1,333 compared to a rate of 52 for non-Indigenous youth. (National Police Custody Survey, August 1995, Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, Bringing them home, Report of the National Inquiry into the Separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children from Their
Families, AGPS, 1997, p. 492)

To be fair to the non-native austrialian government an official apology was made to stolen children generation by the governments churches across the country as recently as 1997, and the sad genocidal legacy is nothing compared to what when on in candada

It is widley report that the canadian indigenous holocaust seen the forced removal of up to 150,000 children from their families and a minimum of 50,000 children died in the residential school death camps, by forced exposure to disease and subsequent denial of treatment and other horrendus acts including sterilization, medical experiments, rape, murder and torture and this continued right up until 1984.

This was done under the cover government legislation and administered by Protestant and Catholic churches was the deliberate and persistent eradication of aboriginal people and their culture, and the conversion of any surviving native people to Christianity.
(HIDDEN FROM HISTORY: The Canadian Holocaust, The Untold Story of the Genocide of Aboriginal Peoples The Truth Commission into Genocide in Canada, 2001)

Your comment of rugger playing friends having no problem with this is a tad patronising, a bit like an english cricket playing saying his indigenous indian cricket friends have no problem with imperialist India.

the indigenous peoples of the amazon basin, as with all indigenous peoples of this earth in most cases continue to have, issues with land rights, resource exploitation and missionary activity etc , the very least they deserve is a bit of respect, if you find yourself in their country and less of some of the condescending and racist comments posted in this thread

JustinDee wrote: »

As I suggested, try avoiding the blab on something you have not the slightest inkling of (rugby league and my own friends included).
An evening in Federal, NSW and your tune would change pronto.
Sanctimonious and subjectively regurgitated tosh aimed at flipping a guilt trip at anyone actually just getting on with their lives in a country you've obviously never even been to, is all this diatribe is. Especially in lauding some white hippies assaulting a PM.

which part of the discussion above do you disagree with or are you contesting.

This is not diatribe, I have quoted from official sources without an ounce of subjectivity, merely providing offical data of the dark past that some non native austrialians would rather go away like the protestors,

The protestors in my view have a legitimate cause and if that involves a bit of rough handling of a PM, and a lost shoe then all the better, cause its got me and some of the rest of the world interested in what is goin on there.

Is this a typical response for a non native austrailian to someone interested in aboriginal lands rights "An evening in Federal, NSW and your tune would change pronto",

Is that what you do with anyone with native Australian sympathies, lock them away in NSW correctional facility for a good oul beasting session of sphincter therapy with some ex rugger players.

I have no problem with anyone living or immigrating to austrialia, provide that the indigenous population are shown some respect and can live without having to endure some of the preducices as exemplemplified in some of the posts above and the more non native protestors there are (hippies included) the better.

JustinDee

dochartaigh wrote: »

which part of the discussion above do you disagree with or are you contesting

I find your use convenient timeline disingenuous and subjective, as I've said.

dochartaigh wrote: »

This is not diatribe, I have quoted from official sources without an ounce of subjectivity, merely providing offical data of the dark past that some non native austrialians would rather go away like the protestors

You have retroactively searched and quoted in a convenient timeline preceding the actions of the previous three Australian governments.

dochartaigh wrote: »

The protestors in my view have a legitimate cause and if that involves a bit of rough handling of a PM, and a lost shoe then all the better, cause its got me and some of the rest of the world interested in what is goin on there

Assault is not protest. It is simply assault hence the condemnation by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander representatives and tribal elders. If anything, it has alienated and diminished any credibility the Tent Embassy protestors that were present might have once had. And if you had done your homework, you'd know that Tony Abbott (the original target of the protestors) is not actually in the government.

dochartaigh wrote: »

Is this a typical response for a non native austrailian to someone interested in aboriginal lands rights "An evening in Federal, NSW and your tune would change pronto"

I'm saying you have shown that you haven't a realistic iota of what you're 'concerned' about.

dochartaigh wrote: »

Is that what you do with anyone with native Australian sympathies, lock them away in NSW correctional facility for a good oul beasting session of sphincter therapy with some ex rugger players

Again, you're showing that you're far too removed to begin even commenting on what I told you. By your use of the word "rugger" alone, you're insinuating the typical class warrior's stereotypical idea of a rugby union club with not a clue about rugby league, its roots, who plays it and who supports it in Australia.

dochartaigh wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone living or immigrating to austrialia, provide that the indigenous population are shown some respect and can live without having to endure some of the preducices as exemplemplified in some of the posts above and the more non native protestors there are (hippies included) the better.

I have said not one jot in a racist or prejudicial manner so kindly reel that self-righteous insinuation in.

Einhard

dochartaigh wrote: »

As I mentioned ethnic cleansing/ assimilation/genocide of indigenous austrialians was official government policy up until the 60s,

You admit that such despicable practices stopped in the 60s, and admit elsewhere that much has been done since the 90s to seek to make some amends for the historical treatment of aborogines, and yet your initial post castigating Australia and Australians is very much in the present tense:

how native Australians are treated in THEIR own country, there culture is demonised, suppressed and battered to near extinction by the white supremest culture and education system that has brought destruction under the banner of improvement to every where it permeates.

If you wrote this 50 years ago I'd entirely agree with you. Not now though. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Western culture and civilisation in general. That's fair enough. But stop using historical sufferings and wrongs to further your own anti-Western agenda.

sudzs

irishh_bob wrote: »

those pics suggest the prime minister was quite shook up by the demonstrators , if an american president were pushed around like that , thier would have been blood on the floor

I think that was her own security people pushing and dragging her away from the venue. At no point was she pushed by any of the protesters.

CiaranC

JustinDee wrote: »

There are many many Aboriginal folk who live in the cities or main habitation areas and do well for themselves.

Thats a bit of a stretch. I never met a well off aboriginal when I was there. There were barely any at all in Melbourne.

Have you got a source to show that aboriginals are in fact well off urbanites?

JustinDee

CiaranC wrote: »

Thats a bit of a stretch. I never met a well off aboriginal when I was there. There were barely any at all in Melbourne

In a city of how many? 3 or 4 million? You've never come across an Aboriginal doing well for themselves??? It is not a "stretch" of any kind.

CiaranC wrote: »

Have you got a source to show that aboriginals are in fact well off urbanites?

Just people I know and have come across during the years. What sort of "source" do you need? The AFL or NRL? Aboriginals in Business? University masterships? Did you play sport there? What did you do for a living when living in Australia?

What I can tell you for sure is people assuming that the likes of jarwadjali or gunai just live in the bush, on a reservation or in slums is looked down upon. Its akin to assuming that Paddies just work on construction sites, live in houses with twenty others and can't survive without the 'drop'.

randd1

dochartaigh wrote: »

best estimates are 70,000 years and in my view makes them the most advanced intelligent peoples on this earth.

No, 70,000 years does not mean they are not the most advanced, intelligent people on this Earth. It means the are the oldest. Undoubtedly skilled in their own way to have survived so long but they had none of the advancements or intelligence of other cultures, and why they ended up under the thumb of more advanced, more intelligent civilizations. After all gun beats spear and army beats tribe.

dochartaigh wrote: »

Im sure many "americans" would also say that their nations had been turned into one of the greatest nations in the planet following a similar campaign of ethnic genocide over a couple of centuries.

First off, being born and bred in America for generations would make you "American", regardless of colour, creed or ethnicity. Secondly, while it may not be the greatest nation its a far better country than most. And lastly, disease wiped out many, many times more native Americans than any of the genocidal actions of Europeans. And if you knew anything about native american history you would know they were quite capable of, and efficient at, committing genocide themselves, mass ritual sacrifice for example.

dochartaigh

randd1 wrote: »

No, 70,000 years does not mean they are not the most advanced, intelligent people on this Earth. It means the are the oldest. Undoubtedly skilled in their own way to have survived so long but they had none of the advancements or intelligence of other cultures, and why they ended up under the thumb of more advanced, more intelligent civilizations. After all gun beats spear and army beats tribe.
.

ok randdi we have a difference of opinion as to the definition of intelligence/advanced civilizations, my logic is basically is regardless of technological status, intelligence, level of advancement all that really matters for ANY culture on this earth is how long they can persist in their environs and no one to my knowledge come near the indigenous aussie, every so called advanced/technological civilisation from the egyptians to the romans to british colonial to possibly current western industrial civilisation did not last because they were more concerned about other things, mainly the selfish ends and desires of their ruling class and acquisition of more lands and resources to sustain their civilisation and colonial ends.

That is why im so fascinated by the aboriginal culture, maybe it was a product of their geographical isolation or maybe is ways their ingenuity in their land management practices, who knows.

But I cant see our current capatilist western culture with its industrial military pharmaceutical petrochemical economic complex of vested interests lasting for much longer as evident by the current economic/ecological meltdown. If there is a collapse as predicted that means that aboriginal culture beats our own by several orders of magnitude in terms of life span

dochartaigh

randd1 wrote: »

First off, being born and bred in America for generations would make you "American", regardless of colour, creed or ethnicity. Secondly, while it may not be the greatest nation its a far better country than most. And lastly, disease wiped out many, many times more native Americans than any of the genocidal actions of Europeans. And if you knew anything about native american history you would know they were quite capable of, and efficient at, committing genocide themselves, mass ritual sacrifice for example.

I know there is much debate about the numbers involved in the european led genocide of the indigenous populations of the americans but according to one source "American Holocaust", argues that the destruction of the aboriginal peoples of the Americas, in a "string of genocide campaigns" by Europeans and their descendants, was the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world".

I agree that small pox epidemics were beyond control but they were used deliberately by the british and the spanish under the guise of gifts of smallpox infested blankets.

I know that mass ritual sacrifce did take place but i thought this was confined to the mayan/aztec culture and the numbers involved were negligbible compared to the overall indigenous holocaust of the americas which as ive mentioned continued up until 1984 in canada.

I think ultimately when the final page in the book of the history of the world is written the legacy of destruction of indigenous peoples and/or culture all over the world (including our own Irish one) by the colonial, largely Christian European led forces is one of the saddest, shameful episodes in the history of homo sapien.

CiaranC

JustinDee wrote: »

What I can tell you for sure is people assuming that the likes of jarwadjali or gunai just live in the bush, on a reservation or in slums is looked down upon. Its akin to assuming that Paddies just work on construction sites, live in houses with twenty others and can't survive without the 'drop'.

70% of Aborginals live outside major cities, while 70% of all non Aboriginals live in major cities.

Of the 70% who live outside the cities, the average equivalised income is 40% of the corresponding income for non-Aboriginals Australians.

23% of Aboriginals finish year 12, never mind university masterships.

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/statistics/index.html

I worked in IT in various professional industries (defence, finance, IT) in Australia, in QLD and VIC. None of the companies I worked in employed a single Aboriginal in a professional role that I ever came across. In contrast, I have worked with several college educated Maoris here in NZ already. Your characterisation of Aboriginals as just another group of urban Australians is frankly absurd.

Yahew

A bit of "noble savageness" going on here methinks.

The whole thing is a mess of cultural relativism and cultural marxist thought. Bad Christians. Bad Whites. Bad Yurups. Good indigenous, including us, provided we didn't have the arse in our trousers. Now that we are rich, we are guilty. And newly bad.

The problem with fetishing the past is simple - if you believe that is the way to live then live like that. No drugs. No technology. No TV. No foods grown out of season. No mass produced anything. No plastic, no clothing you didn't kill, no iPhone, no chair you didn't chop, no nothing. Grubs for dinner. Grubs for tea. No refrigerated anything. No books - if you are favouring non-literate societies ( although you seem confused about when Ireland was invaded by "Christians", it was Christian ( and literate) before it was invaded by English Catholics. Australia was not literate or Christian).

I think ultimately when the final page in the book of the history of the world is written the legacy of destruction of indigenous peoples and/or culture all over the world (including our own Irish one) by the colonial, largely Christian European led forces is one of the saddest, shameful episodes in the history of homo sapien.

Probably ( although victors make history), but that genocide doesn't mean that there was anything noble, good, or interesting about how people lived. And,as far as I know the Australian aboriginals actually eliminated most of the game in a few centuries. Hence grubs etc.

And if you are hard to get to its easy to survive for centuries. Rome was easy to get to, hence it's collapse. Fetishing the past is noble savagism, unless you would prefer to live like that. The modern Aboriginals, who have a right to more land in Australia, want to live like modern man, some of their culture, but the benefits of Western culture too.

JustinDee

CiaranC wrote: »

70% of Aborginals live outside major cities, while 70% of all non Aboriginals live in major cities.

Of the 70% who live outside the cities, the average equivalised income is 40% of the corresponding income for non-Aboriginals Australians.

23% of Aboriginals finish year 12, never mind university masterships.

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/statistics/index.html

I worked in IT in various professional industries (defence, finance, IT) in Australia, in QLD and VIC. None of the companies I worked in employed a single Aboriginal in a professional role that I ever came across. In contrast, I have worked with several college educated Maoris here in NZ already. Your characterisation of Aboriginals as just another group of urban Australians is frankly absurd.

It isn't absurd that there are Aboriginal folk live a decent life in the city or its surrounding environs.
What is absurd is some transient quoting de facto that they don't and that I must be seeing things.

CiaranC

JustinDee wrote: »

It isn't absurd that there are Aboriginal folk live a decent life in the city or its surrounding environs.
What is absurd is some transient quoting de facto that they don't and that I must be seeing things.

I never said there are no Aboriginals who live in a city and "live a decent life", did I? I said that to pretend that this is the norm is disingenous.

Is there an ethnic minority worse off than Aboriginal Australians anywhere else in the western world?

dochartaigh

I suppose to get back to the core of the issue at hand is the very nature of the austrailia day celebrations.

It is completely understandable that the majority of indigenous austrialians would find such a commerative national day to celebrate the arrival of an evil colonial british empire, offensive to say the least

how would any of us feel if Ireland was that bit more isolated in the atlantic and our indigenous pagan celtic culture had survived the onslaught of all the all the invaders till cromwell came, and he did drive us all to hell or connaught, to the extent, that we were driven to marginal lands and our population had fallen to 2.5% of the total and we had to endure every year a cromwell day, celebrating a the day when they landed on our soil.

Maybe its time for all austrialians to look at changing this day to something like, as suggested by ron barassi, commeration of the The anniversary of the 1967 referendum to amend the constitutional status of Aborigines, 27 May

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/barassi-calls-for-australia-day-move/story-fna7dq6e-1111118657513

and by the way while your at it get rid of that butchers apron (union jack) on the flag, probably the most offensive scrap of cotton ever weaved!

Batsy

Julia Gillard is British. It's good to see the British ruling Australia again.