Should more emphasis be put onto breeding for purpose??

MacraPat

Has show-dog breeding wrecked our pets??
90% + of dogs are pets (or pets with a secondary function),so would it be a good idea if all KC breeding sires or dams had to have a basic good canine citizen qualification? Would this result in better/more biddable pets being bred?

What do you guys think?

ISDW

I thought when I saw the title of the thread, that it was actually going to be about breeding for purpose - i.e. dogs that are able to do the jobs they are supposedly bred for.

I believe that breed standards need to reflect the purpose of the breed, so GSDs (that favourite of the anti show argument:D) should actually be capable of herding. Siberian Huskies should be of a size and build that they can pull something, and with legs long enough to cope with snow. And judges should be judging breeds to those standards.

MacraPat

Yeah that's a fair point but it practically excludes most of the hound, terrier,toy and "working" groups, who have been bred too far from their original role to be useful. Plus you don't want to alienate people who may like say collies but don't own sheep. Implementing breed trials for every breed would be draconian but would have to yield results. At the moment Landrace types are filling what should or could be breed specific roles. At the expense of all this effort would it really be more useful? Most people really just want a biddable, obedient companion.

ISDW

MacraPat wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point but it practically excludes most of the hound, terrier,toy and "working" groups, who have been bred too far from their original role to be useful. Plus you don't want to alienate people who may like say collies but don't own sheep. Implementing breed trials for every breed would be draconian but would have to yield results. At the moment Landrace types are filling what should or could be breed specific roles. At the expense of all this effort would it really be more useful? Most people really just want a biddable, obedient companion.

But you have to understand the breed. No, most people with collies won't have sheep, but to fulfill the needs of that dog, they should probably do agility, obedience, flyball etc with it. Otherwise you could end up with a frustrated dog with issues.

What do you mean Landrace?

MacraPat

"Landraces are local populations of animals that are consistent enough to be considered breeds, but are more variable in appearance than are standardized breeds.

A combination of human and natural selection has shaped the evolution of landrace breeds. Natural selection and geographical isolation have created genetic consistency and adaptation to the local environment."

I think this would typify a lot of working dogs which may or may not have papers like ratting terriers, nondescript farm cattle/sheep dogs or hounds belonging to hunts.

I 100% agree with your point of owners fulfilling a dogs needs.

DamagedTrax

unfortunatly it wouldnt be viable for bullies unless we bring bull baiting and fighting back!!! :eek:

but its well known that some of the best bullies come from the most game bloodlines as they were bred for absolutly zero human aggression. it wasnt until the unskilled breeding of the 80s and 90s that some human aggresive dogs really started appearing in public. the older dog men wouldnt have had any use for a human aggresive dog and they would be put down. strong proven bloodlines is what originally gave the bullies their flawless reputation with humans.

as for fulfilling the dogs genetic needs, i agree totally. just how to go about it safely with certain breeds is the problem. agility and on lead hunting work wonders.

* when i say 'on lead hunting' im reffering to letting my dog hunt and chase squirrels etc but never catch. i'll run with her, she'll even climb a tree but i never let her loose. it does wonders to get rid of the frustrations that build up.

Bullseye1

There was an interesting article on the BBC website yesterday I think about national dog breeds (in the UKs case the English Setter and a number of others) which are almost extinct because people have moved away from keeping them as pets to breeds like the Siberian. Its sad really, but when was the last time you have seen some of the Irish Breeds like the Wolf Hound, Red Setter, Irish Setter, Irish Terrier, Kerry Blue. These are all rare breeds.

ISDW

Thanks for the topic OP, its an interesting one for debate:)

I agree with you to a certain degree about the fact that most dogs are now pets, but if breeders start breeding purely for pet homes, for a dog that fulfils only those criteria that pet homes desire, what would be the point of having different breeds?

Thanks for the Landrace explanation, hadn't seen that before.

DamagedTrax

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There was an interesting article on the BBC website yesterday I think about national dog breeds (in the UKs case the English Setter and a number of others) which are almost extinct because people have moved away from keeping them as pets to breeds like the Siberian. Its sad really, but when was the last time you have seen some of the Irish Breeds like the Wolf Hound, Red Setter, Irish Setter, Irish Terrier, Kerry Blue. These are all rare breeds.

dont forget the pitbull originated in ireland despite getting the amercian tag along the way

Wibbs

Maybe just start with something simple like breeding for overall functional and genetic health? Get rid of the sloped back GSD's, lower the weight and increase the muzzle and leg length on bulldogs, bigger heads on King Charles, that sort of thing. Outbreed to better(older) examples of the breed or even other breeds. Can't see the breeders going for this though and it's squarely at the feet of the breeders.

DamagedTrax

Wibbs wrote: »

lower the weight and increase the muzzle and leg length on bulldogs,

thats working very well for the amercian bulldog which i think are a much better bred dog than the english

english


american

Bullseye1

DamagedTrax wrote: »

dont forget the pitbull originated in ireland despite getting the amercian tag along the way

Did it really? I know alot of blood sports originated here.

Bullseye1

The American Bulldog looks alot closer to how the original BB looked. It looks so much better.

recedite

DamagedTrax wrote: »

* when i say 'on lead hunting' im reffering to letting my dog hunt and chase squirrels etc but never catch. i'll run with her, she'll even climb a tree but i never let her loose.

Maybe it's a Koala Bear you have, not a dog?

DamagedTrax

staffies and pits are great tree climbers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QH916abg-k

TooManyDogs

DamagedTrax wrote: »

dont forget the pitbull originated in ireland despite getting the amercian tag along the way

Do you know the history of it's origins in Ireland? I'd love to know the story, no-one I've asked seems to really know for sure where the breed started or for that matter exactly what a pit looks like! Some point at staff x, other bull breeds etc etc

DamagedTrax

not really, i love pits but i'd be more up on irish staffie origins (long legs/blues).

great info here on the irish and blues http://www.keetchs-irish-staffords.com/

back to your question - basically the pits (like the staffs) came from the old english bull terrier (bull and terrier) and a lot of irish breeders added mastiff and the bigger irish terrier (if i remember correctly) in the mix for a sportier dog that was very game. great for ratting and fighting.

after that you'd need to talk to an expert on the breed. and if im off on the exact details maybe someone who knows will chirp in.

old style bull and terrier


typical example of KC standard staffie bull terrier @ about 16"


irish staff (irish blue troy) @ about 22"


irish staff (my girl dolly) @ about 19"


american pitbull terrier (beautiful and full eared as they should be IMO!) about 25"



it can get very confusing with bullies!

Wibbs

The German Shepherd another one. From these;

That's Rin Tin Tin, world famous dog before Lassie was a gleam in his her mothers eye.


The very first "original" GSD from the hands and extensive efforts of the chap Von Stephanitz who spent a lifetime looking for the "perfect dog". Not just working dog either, he had a whole chapter on social aspects and how good they should be with kids and the whole family. You'll note that both these guys back legs are longer then the front. That's where the power comes from. His first few chapters of the same book look at all sorts of breeds, including wild canids like the wolf(a few of his "seed" dogs had very recent wolf outbreeding). Here's the original in German. Worth a look for the pics of different breeds of the time and not a "mutant" among them.
http://www.archive.org/stream/derdeutschesc00step#page/26/mode/2up Look at the Norwegian Elkhound on the right. Now elkhounds are still cool, not as fooked about with and still look like "proper" dogs, yet quite different to the average today. Thumbing through the book you'll see many examples of dog breeds that look very different today. Funny enough even European wolves seem to look different back then(page 36). Though Rin Tin Tin looks way more like an actual wolf in anatomy(without the mental madness) than 90% of the muppets walking parading around with so called wolf hybrids or selling same on donedeal. Even has the bushy straight tail not going below the hock at rest, the overall bodyshape etc. Only his smaller head and big oul GSD ears give the game away. All the better to hear you with my dear Good actor too

Now to today...

This dog was a show winner;


Heres the breed standard page from the German Shepherd Assoc here in Ireland. For mobile users here are some pics from above;



And an explanation of the anatomy that allows it to be superior as a trotting dog

Yea right. Pardon me if I call BS on that. The original more "wolflike" anatomy would make a trotting master. Thats what wolves are built to do. Trot for days on end covering up to 100miles a day. The original style GSD would be the same. Some of the rarer(to us) Czech and Polish GSD lines would be like this. If they were so good at Police and SAR work, why are they becoming the minority breed in that arena? Go back a generation and they were the dog for that stuff(and as guide dogs and other helper animals). The Belgian malinois shepherd is taking over in competition.


I wonder why...

Then for full effect, lets look at the "standard" in action. The "judge" a guy charged with the breed standard and rewarding the breed standard is quite unbelievable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV7elIy_Aoo

It's very bloody sad. The state of the GSD really grinds my gears I had one many years ago. Gold standard pedigree with many top of class winners in the UK and mostly Germany. But he died at only 7, riddled with arthritis, woeful hips and cardiac failure

DamagedTrax

what in gods name are they doing to the poor dogs? whats the reasoning behind that shaping?

EDIT - ok i missed that little bit on the reason. seems strange but then with KC standards im baffled sometimes. im not wanting to slag off anyone with show dogs, i do love a little show staffie but the differences that are being bred into them are completly removing the breed from what it was.

Wibbs

Yea DT but IMHO the "reason" is clearly and functionally inaccurate. Again IMHO it's just an excuse for the fashion.

ISDW

I know I've said it time and time again, but I truly believe that no dog from a working breed should be allowed to be made a champion until they have shown they can perform the task for which they should have been bred. That doesn't mean making bull breeds fight anything, but there are trials that can be set up to show that a dog is fit for purpose. If the respective kennel clubs want a breed to remain and continue being bred, they need to find some way of measuring whether champion dogs are fit for purpose.

DamagedTrax

ISDW wrote: »

That doesn't mean making bull breeds fight anything, but there are trials that can be set up to show that a dog is fit for purpose.

i agree. weight pulling and agility can show the immense drive that a good bully can have. they certainly dont need to fight to prove thet are hardcore when it comes to competing

lucycat

Really interesting topic OP! I am genuinely shocked at the difference between the British and American bullies - they really DO NOT look similar at all. I was watching a programme last night with Jodie Marsh in it (yes, I know!) and her two British bullies looked so weird, for want of a better word. Not saying its got to do with her at all now, but their eyes were all funny and droopy and their teeth were all crooked and weird - the poor things looked desperate compared to how healthy and great the American guy looks!

I have two toy breed dogs at home, so I think they are fulfilling their purpose very well, seeing as all they do is sit on laps and look down their noses at us mere mortals lol

recedite

Very sad to see those "champion" GS Dogs dragging their hindquarters like that. They are being bred to be disabled. The reason IMO is to conform with a human ideal of a macho "body figure" as epitomised by bodybuilders and cartoon animations of batman/superman; ie big shoulders and a tiny shrunken ass.

I didn't realise the Irish staffordshire was supposed to be bigger. Ignoring the "pit bull" types on either side of the Irish sea, the common and typical house pet staff that you would see in London is bigger and more athletic than the ones you would see in Dublin.

Forumsrule

Artificial slection has wrecked all sorts of animals. Anyone ever see Belgian Blue cattle, they look like body builders. All the muscle means cheaper meat for consumers...

Wibbs

True enough Forumsrule, but it doesn't have to be like that and can improve an animal. A racehorse is going to hammer a wild horse in the running stakes and is arguably a more noble looking beast. Dogs a great example, or were. Wolves could never make companion animals, are scared of their own shadow, highly unpredictable, would never make for a guard, herding or working animal and while some are beautiful to look at most can be fairly rough and mangy looking(IMHO the Iberian wolf being an exception, lovely looking guys). Look what good selection of that original stock has given us. Look what the dog has given us. Without them we'd not be who we are today. It just saddens me that for too many breeds this has been lost and woefully so.

DamagedTrax

recedite wrote: »

I didn't realise the Irish staffordshire was supposed to be bigger. Ignoring the "pit bull" types on either side of the Irish sea, the common and typical house pet staff that you would see in London is bigger and more athletic than the ones you would see in Dublin.

its only really called an irish staff in name, not cause you mostly find them in ireland

borderlinemeath

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There was an interesting article on the BBC website yesterday I think about national dog breeds (in the UKs case the English Setter and a number of others) which are almost extinct because people have moved away from keeping them as pets to breeds like the Siberian. Its sad really, but when was the last time you have seen some of the Irish Breeds like the Wolf Hound, Red Setter, Irish Setter, Irish Terrier, Kerry Blue. These are all rare breeds.

Plenty of Irish Setters about, not too many red and white though.

The Irish setter show dogs are bigger and coats far more feathered than the working stock. People who meet my two always think they're only young because they're smaller than the show dogs but the small size is an advantage in the field.