Garda bosses raid budget to pay €12m bill for staff taxes

bluetop

Wednesday January 25 2012

GARDA bosses have been forced to raid their annual budget to pay €12.4m to the Revenue Commissioners, after a series of allowances to gardai were wrongly left untaxed.

The demand for back taxes was delivered by Revenue officials after they won a battle with the garda authorities on whether the allowances should come into the tax net.

Allowances for plainclothes duties, using bicycles, and officers sitting on interview boards have all now been deemed fully taxable.

In addition, 40pc of the value of special payments for detective work, wearing uniforms and boots, and working as community relations or juvenile liaison officers are also taxable.

Dividing out the back payments among the nation's almost 14,000 gardai would have resulted in an average deduction of around €885 per member.

But the rank and file have escaped picking up the cost of the backdated tax themselves, although they will pay tax on these allowances from now on. Management decided that the back taxes should be paid from the force's budget, rather than attempt to implement deductions from individual pay slips.

This means the annual budget for police work will be raided -- with one senior garda officer last night claiming that it was the only feasible and realistic arrangement.

Members of the gardai are in receipt of several different allowances and exact calculations vary among ranks, categories and postings of gardai. Since the start of the year gardai of all ranks have been paying taxes on six specific allowances which had previously been regarded as outside the scope of the Revenue.

But Revenue officials began taking a closer look at the payment of allowances to gardai more than a year ago after the force's chief administration officer made a voluntary disclosure of them to the tax officials.

The results of the study sparked off a round of talks involving the Revenue with garda management, and members of the four staff associations. For more than a year there were arguments that the allowances had traditionally been tax free.

But the Revenue ruled that back payments totalling €12.4m to take account of the force's PAYE and PRSI liabilities should be handed over.

Senior gardai said the back taxes were paid before Christmas -- around the same time that the force received €27m to meet the costs of providing security earlier in the year for the visits of Queen Elizabeth and US President Barack Obama.

- Tom Brady Security Editor

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-bosses-raid-budget-to-pay-12m-bill-for-staff-taxes-2998923.html

aujopimur

The bit about the bicycle allowance is gas.

KindOfIrish

so if Garda in plainclothes using bicycles, they get double allowance they have it good while country is in trouble...

Bannasidhe

KindOfIrish wrote: »

so if Garda in plainclothes using bicycles, they get double allowance they have it good while country is in trouble...

well since the bicycle riding Guards have to wear a uniform does that mean they really do get 2 allowances - the bicycle one and the special payment for wearing a uniform?

bluetop

Good question

cursai

Article is inaccurate and misleading about the amount and number of allowances an individual member can receive. Most only receive the boot and uniform (maintenance-theres a whole pile of it) allowance and the Rent (being forced to work a good distance from your home) allowance.
Nobody gets plain clothes and bike allowance. I imagine a lot of it is back dating due to members claiming where they haven't before in the past.
Irish Indo = Trash

Bannasidhe

cursai wrote: »

Article is inaccurate and misleading about the amount and number of allowances an individual member can receive. Most only receive the boot and uniform (maintenance-theres a whole pile of it) allowance and the Rent (being forced to work a good distance from your home) allowance.
Nobody gets plain clothes and bike allowance. I imagine a lot of it is back dating due to members claiming where they haven't before in the past.
Irish Indo = Trash

So the bicycle riding guards could be getting a payment for riding a bike plus a payment to maintain their uniforms?

cursai

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So the bicycle riding guards could be getting a payment for riding a bike plus a payment to maintain their uniforms?

Correct but remember they have two sets of uniform to maintain(bicycle and regular). But they wont get the uniform payment twice. Just the bike and uniform.
Also only about one in six have the bike course.
Its the allowances for higher managerial ranks that create the huge payments. Office Duty allowance......

Eru

Are people really bitching about an allowance of 1.56 per week?

The real question is why do management that sit in offices get 3 times the uniform allowance that Gardai that walk the beat and deal with criminals every day get?

Bannasidhe

Eru wrote: »

Are people really bitching about an allowance of 1.56 per week?

The real question is why do management that sit in offices get 3 times the uniform allowance that Gardai that walk the beat and deal with criminals every day get?

Speaking for myself, I wasn't bitching - I was only asking a simple question. I think we are allowed to do that still..:)

Delancey

As I understand it , boot allowance was to cover the cost of footwear worn on duty which is fair enough but given that nowadays Gardai wear issued footwear is that not an allowance that really has no place ?

Delancey

Delancey wrote: »

As I understand it , boot allowance was to cover the cost of footwear worn on duty which is fair enough but given that nowadays Gardai wear issued footwear is that not an allowance that really has no place ?

It goes some of the way towards paying for plasters for the blisters that I get when wearing the boots!

Victor

Eru wrote: »

Are people really bitching about an allowance of 1.56 per week?

So you won't mind if its taken away?

It does add up to about a million a year.

mathepac

Eru wrote: »

... The real question is why do management that sit in offices get 3 times the uniform allowance that Gardai that walk the beat and deal with criminals every day get?

Because a lot of them are three times the size of a working Garda and have more decorations and shiny bits to be cleaned (on their uniforms that is, I'm not referring to their necks).

goldie fish

Victor wrote: »

So you won't mind if its taken away?

It does add up to about a million a year.

A drop in the ocean compared to what the pensions of the TDs who got us in this mess costs.

Mr Jinx

Victor wrote: »

So you won't mind if its taken away?

It does add up to about a million a year.

Why should it be taken away? just because you dont agree with it?

and where are you getting the figure of a million euro a year from?

goldie fish

Mr Jinx wrote: »

Why should it be taken away? just because you dont agree with it?

and where are you getting the figure of a million euro a year from?

Presume that every garda gets it, 52 weeks a year.

Mr Jinx

goldie fish wrote: »

Presume that every garda gets it, 52 weeks a year.

Not every Garda gets it. Only members who are mountain bike trained. I'd say 3,000 at most.

Eru

Victor wrote: »

So you won't mind if its taken away?

Couldnt care less. Would rather that than being charged a special tax based on my occupation of approx 6-7% like I was hit with but then people would find it harder to complain

However as said before, only uniform gardai get it and its subject to tax at 40% so its worth about 6000 gardai x 1.56 = 9360. 9360 per week by 52 weeks = 486720. take away 40% leaves the actual payment as 292032.

So yeah, take away my 48 euro per year allowance, boo hoo

goldie fish

Mr Jinx wrote: »

Not every Garda gets it. Only members who are mountain bike trained. I'd say 3,000 at most.

Never let facts get in the way of an anti PS rant. You know we'll all get a 400k grat when we retire also, of course...

unichall

Minor issue i know but to set the record straight, no garda gets a bicycle allowance, not even those on the mountain bikes.

It is an allowance from many moons ago where if a garda provided his own bicycle to perform duty he/she was entitled to an alowance, the key wording is provide their own, since every bike trained garda is provided with a bike by the state they are not entitled to this allowance

Terrontress

I had always believed that it is illegal for an organisation or individual to pay someone else's tax for them. What should happen is the funds be given to the person liable and they pay the tax themselves. Of course, for a Garda to receive €885, he'd need to be given €1,500.

Something doesn't seem right about how they have gone about this.

Terrontress

Terrontress wrote: »

Something doesn't seem right about how they have gone about this.

Now if it was pensioners there might be a different angle to the Revenue looking for back tax on something that was NEVER taxed before...

Terrontress

foreign wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

Something doesn't seem right about how they have gone about this.

Now if it was pensioners there might be a different angle to the Revenue looking for back tax on something that was NEVER taxed before...

Two wrongs don't make a right. We are not discussing pensioners here.

Edit: by the way, my thoughts are that expenses reimburse what you have had to shell out for from your own pocket, be it dry cleaning a uniform, buying boot polish or changing a tyre on a bike. The money you have paid for that has already had paye tax taken from it so why should expenses by taxed?

dahamsta

goldie fish wrote: »

A drop in the ocean compared to what the pensions of the TDs who got us in this mess costs.

Slightly OT and I'm not commenting on this million in particular because I haven't read the details yet, but I'm sick to death of this argument being bandied about here, there and everywhere.

Every million saved is a million less we have to cover. Every million that someone calls "a drop in the ocean" is part of a billion ocean that we HAVE to spend on hospitals or roads, or more accurately NOT spend because someone thought or said "Sure It's Just A Million, What Harm?"; and someone else thought "Sure If They Can Do It, Why Shouldn't I?"

Did no-one ever tell these people to save your pennies? I do, and I've paid for a car and a half from it, and started a business, and more besides. Think what we could do with those slightly bigger "pennies" that are "a drop in the ocean".

I can come up with a hundred things to do with a million, a thousand; starting with putting that drop in our debt ocean and getting our country back a drop quicker.

Adam

Terrontress

Terrontress wrote: »

Two wrongs don't make a right. We are not discussing pensioners here.

Edit: by the way, my thoughts are that expenses reimburse what you have had to shell out for from your own pocket, be it dry cleaning a uniform, buying boot polish or changing a tyre on a bike. The money you have paid for that has already had paye tax taken from it so why should expenses by taxed?

I probably misunderstood your post.

And they are not expenses, members of the Oireachtas get them, unvouched too, ours are an allowance.

MagicSean

It's such a stupid situation. The Garda budget comes out of the same pot that revenue pays into. We don't have a hypothecated tax system so it is a ridiculous set up. If the Gardai overspend this year they will just take the money back. It's just like the stupid situation with paying for the queens visit. It all comes from the same bloody place.

As an aside, I would gladly give up uniform and boot allowance and just claim back any expense through the PAYE online system.

Eru

dahamsta wrote: »

Slightly OT and I'm not commenting on this million in particular because I haven't read the details yet, but I'm sick to death of this argument being bandied about here, there and everywhere.

Every million saved is a million less we have to cover. Every million that someone calls "a drop in the ocean" is part of a billion ocean that we HAVE to spend on hospitals or roads, or more accurately NOT spend because someone thought or said "Sure It's Just A Million, What Harm?"; and someone else thought "Sure If They Can Do It, Why Shouldn't I?"

Did no-one ever tell these people to save your pennies? I do, and I've paid for a car and a half from it, and started a business, and more besides. Think what we could do with those slightly bigger "pennies" that are "a drop in the ocean".

I can come up with a hundred things to do with a million, a thousand; starting with putting that drop in our debt ocean and getting our country back a drop quicker.

Adam

If everyone simple saved their pennies instead of spending them there would be no economy or businesses like yours to make money. Circulation of funds helps the economy and in fact, tax returns

dahamsta

I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about government and public service; the clue is in the word "millions", and what those millions are used for, millions that come nowhere near my business or any other business in most cases.

Did you read a single post in this thread before firing out the first thing that came into your head?

Eru

dahamsta wrote: »

I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about government and public service. Did you read a single post in this thread before firing out the first thing that came into your head?

So the government doesnt spend real pennies into the economy and the public sector dont use real pennies to pay the staff, tax or buy goods and services needed by the departments? Damn I knew the monopoly man shouldnt be on a 20 euro note

dahamsta

So you can't read a thread title?

dahamsta

dahamsta wrote: »

Did you read a single post in this thread before firing out the first thing that came into your head?

In fairness did you read his post about the real cost of the allowance?

dahamsta

Did I reference their post, or any of their posts? Did I address them, or any point they made, in any way, shape or form? I made a general point about a nonsense argument, the fact that this user decided to butt in as if they're the shining light of this thread is none of my concern.

Eru

dahamsta wrote: »

Did I reference their post, or any of their posts? Did I address them, or any point they made, in any way, shape or form? I made a general point about a nonsense argument, the fact that this user decided to butt in as if they're the shining light of this thread is none of my concern.

correction, you made a silly statement that went against reality and how could I be butting in to a thread I was posting in before you arrived?

You stated that you would use this money to pay off some of our debt so to a business man, sending money out of the country is better than curculating it through the local economy or perhaps we should just increase commercial tax like the eu keep suggesting? That would raise a lot more than a quarter of a million