So when is a war crime a war crime?

jackiebaron

This charming character murdered 24 civilians. His punishment, a pat on the back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16712488

My question is this.....should soldiers be allowed to murder and rape?

MyKeyG

jackiebaron wrote: »

This charming character murdered 24 civilians. His punishment, a pat on the back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16712488

My question is this.....should soldiers be allowed to murder and rape?

No of course they shouldn't but the authorities invariably have to accept some hard facts. They desensitise these men and condition them to change a mindset moulded by a society that dictates taking life is unnatural.

I think this says it all 'They said his decision to send his squad to attack nearby homes went against his training. They think they can turn these people into killing machines and control the result. They trained them to be killers and killers is what they became. There is nobody qualified to ensure a human being can be conditioned to take life selectively.

Bobo78

Americans and British are always allowed to do whaterever they want and to get away with it.
There is no law for them.:rolleyes:

Brussels Sprout

Silly OP, War Crimes can only be carried out by people from the developing world* :rolleyes:



* or the former Yugoslavian nations

Manach

From a historical perspective, very few countries ever prosectute their own soldiers for war crimes against enemy civilians. When it does come to trial, minor sentences are usually handed out - for instance, but this does not mean I'm singling out the US, the Mai Li incident during the Vietnam war.
However, the Obama administration is implementing a more controlled rules of engagement in Afganistan, and is under criticism for doing so - link.

Jonny7

I still think they are far too lenient in some of these cases, and esp. those of XE (previously Blackwater) - probably changed their name again since.

War is a murky business, as bad as these abuses are, the Brits and the Americans are ironically more transparent and accountable than most other military forces and armies in the world, e.g. Russia, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, etc.

RichieC

when a brown person carries it out.

Memnoch

So when is a war crime a war crime?

When you are on the losing side of the war. Or when you win the war and someone bigger and stronger than you comes in and kicks your ass or gets to decide your fate.

If you are the US, China, Russia, Britain or protected by a veto of these countries at the UN you cannot commit war crimes. No matter how many people you kill or many countries you pillage.

Jonny7

A war crime really seems to be defined upon the intention to kill innocents.

Maybe there should be a new category - war negligence.

Manic Moran

It is a war crime when it contravenes the laws of war, simple enough.

One is guilty of a war crime when sufficient evidence has been presented in a court of law to convince a jury of the guilt of the accused.

It is possible for one to have committed a war crime and not be guilty of it.

Pretty simple legal concepts, really.

NTM

cyberhog

Survivor Awis Fahmi Hussein, who had been shot in the back, said: "I was expecting that the American judiciary would sentence this person to life in prison and that he would appear and confess in front of the whole world that he committed this crime, so that America could show itself as democratic and fair."

Some would call that delusional thinking but I don't blame the guy for feeling that way as it does seem unthinkable that one of the evildoers could go unpunished.At least the decision makes it abundantly clear that US military courts are a well oiled machine of unfair and biased legal procedure.

randd1

Isn't war just sanctioned murder anyway? And seeing as murder is a crime isn't every act of killing in a war therefore a crime?

I'm not supporting this guys actions, but these things happen in every war, always have, always will. At least the Americans got a guilty plea out of him and some accountability. And this is generally a rare enough occurrence with American/British/Western forces. Do you think any of the the Taliban, the Sudanese, the Iranians or Pakistanis would have even had a hearing? They'd be given medals and accolades and for having done a hell of a lot worse. Not mention these massacres occur regularly under these guys.

At least the Americans went forward with a prosecution, not matter how menial.

cyberhog

randd1 wrote: »

I'm not supporting this guys actions, but these things happen in every war, always have, always will.

That these things happen in war does not surprise anyone. I think what surprises people is that a guy who shot women and children in the head at point-blank range only got a slap on the wrist.

NYT: An Iraqi Massacre, a Light Sentence and a Question of Military Justice


WASHINGTON — The collapse this week of the prosecution of a Marine for a civilian massacre in Haditha, Iraq — a striking outcome, even in a military justice system with a mixed record of charging soldiers for war crimes — has not only outraged Iraqis but also stunned some American military law specialists.

“It’s a travesty,” said Eric S. Montalvo, a former prosecutor and defense counsel in the Marine Corps who is now in private practice specializing in military law. “I don’t believe that justice was served.”

...

“There is a surprising pattern of acquittals,” said Eugene R. Fidell, who teaches military justice at Yale Law School. “I think there is an unwillingness in some cases of military personnel to convict their fellow soldiers in the battle space.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/us/an-iraqi-massacre-a-light-sentence-and-a-question-of-military-justice.html?_r=1

MountainSniper

In 95 percent of war movies, a soldier goes away to war and finally comes back home to his family and tries to put his life back together. It's all over with, and the movie can either end, or switch to showing the dramatic consequences of his war experience. One way or the other, that part of his life is behind him.In reality, military life isn't like that. If you end up deploying to war these days, chances are that you won't go just once. Instead, you'll go there and come back. And then go again. Then come back. And so forth. Repeat three, four or even more times depending on how unlucky you are. How long you're gone depends on your job: Army troops might get 12 months away, then two years back; other services might give you six months on and 12 months off. So instead of having one unique learning experience and coming home with a grim or hopeful life lesson to share with the audience, you have to learn to cope with going back to the same place (or the same type of place) again, and then go back and try to readjust again in the six or so months you've got before you're due to go again. You can imagine what that does to relationships, or to children. A family member who is fine with you going away for a year won't be so happy the third time it happens. Life in the military is allot more than most of you may know, and much more difficult to cope for some than others. When in combat, all you know is whats here, whats now. Your previous "life" isn't even an afterthought. Kill or get killed, if your head pops up, it might come off. Just some perspective, salute friends.

jackiebaron

MountainSniper wrote: »

In 95 percent of war movies, a soldier goes away to war and finally comes back home to his family and tries to put his life back together. It's all over with, and the movie can either end, or switch to showing the dramatic consequences of his war experience. One way or the other, that part of his life is behind him.In reality, military life isn't like that. If you end up deploying to war these days, chances are that you won't go just once. Instead, you'll go there and come back. And then go again. Then come back. And so forth. Repeat three, four or even more times depending on how unlucky you are. How long you're gone depends on your job: Army troops might get 12 months away, then two years back; other services might give you six months on and 12 months off. So instead of having one unique learning experience and coming home with a grim or hopeful life lesson to share with the audience, you have to learn to cope with going back to the same place (or the same type of place) again, and then go back and try to readjust again in the six or so months you've got before you're due to go again. You can imagine what that does to relationships, or to children. A family member who is fine with you going away for a year won't be so happy the third time it happens. Life in the military is allot more than most of you may know, and much more difficult to cope for some than others. When in combat, all you know is whats here, whats now. Your previous "life" isn't even an afterthought. Kill or get killed, if your head pops up, it might come off. Just some perspective, salute friends.

And what's you're point? What specifically are you saying? Are you stating that a soldier who cracks is justifiable in killing and raping? Are you saying that if he goes back to the "f**kin world" and slashes his girlfriend"s throat then it's ok?

A dumb punk who gets caught with some weed, you want banged up for 30 years yet you have these coked-up lunatics coming back from a war zone, who are an utter danger to society and you have nothing to say about these PTSD psychos.?

Well, I hope one moves in next door to you. You'll have more to fear from him than any muslim 10,000 miles away.

MountainSniper

jackiebaron wrote: »

And what's you're point? What specifically are you saying? Are you stating that a soldier who cracks is justifiable in killing and raping? Are you saying that if he goes back to the "f**kin world" and slashes his girlfriend"s throat then it's ok?

A dumb punk who gets caught with some weed, you want banged up for 30 years yet you have these coked-up lunatics coming back from a war zone, who are an utter danger to society and you have nothing to say about these PTSD psychos.?

Well, I hope one moves in next door to you. You'll have more to fear from him than any muslim 10,000 miles away.

Having fought in both wars, while serving 16 years in the US Army, First platoon, A company, 2nd Brigade Combat Team 10th mountain div, I am speaking for the conditions he lives in. Have you ever spent a week without a wink of shuteye? While in a constant firefight? Seen your friends lose their heads in mid sentence? Had your car blow up while driving down the street? I watched my friend pick up a dead dog in the road, to throw it off to the side. He's dead. The dog exploded. An Iraqi child was standing in the middle of an alley with an AK 47 in his hand. Maybe he was 12 or 13. I could here voices behind a dumpster yelling at the kid in arabic. It was a battle, guns being fired from not far away. The kid picked the rifle up and fired. He's also dead. I'm not condoning the incident, I'm speaking for his mindset or lack there of. So before tell me who you hope moves in next door to me, think, maybe one is me.

opinionated3

MountainSniper wrote: »

jackiebaron wrote: »

And what's you're point? What specifically are you saying? Are you stating that a soldier who cracks is justifiable in killing and raping? Are you saying that if he goes back to the "f**kin world" and slashes his girlfriend"s throat then it's ok?

A dumb punk who gets caught with some weed, you want banged up for 30 years yet you have these coked-up lunatics coming back from a war zone, who are an utter danger to society and you have nothing to say about these PTSD psychos.?

Well, I hope one moves in next door to you. You'll have more to fear from him than any muslim 10,000 miles away.

Having fought in both wars, while serving 16 years in the US Army, First platoon, A company, 2nd Brigade Combat Team 10th mountain div, I am speaking for the conditions he lives in. Have you ever spent a week without a wink of shuteye? While in a constant firefight? Seen your friends lose their heads in mid sentence? Had your car blow up while driving down the street? I watched my friend pick up a dead dog in the road, to throw it off to the side. He's dead. The dog exploded. An Iraqi child was standing in the middle of an alley with an AK 47 in his hand. Maybe he was 12 or 13. I could here voices behind a dumpster yelling at the kid in arabic. It was a battle, guns being fired from not far away. The kid picked the rifle up and fired. He's also dead. I'm not condoning the incident, I'm speaking for his mindset or lack there of. So before tell me who you hope moves in next door to me, think, maybe one is me.

Well said.

cyberhog

MountainSniper wrote: »

I'm not condoning the incident,

Would you agree that justice has not been served?

Sindri

To put it simply, the mental states and situations one experiences in war, I believe (rather poetically ) to be a crime against humanity.

MountainSniper

cyberhog wrote: »

Would you agree that justice has not been served?

In this incident, justice probably wasn't served, that wasn't really my point.

Belfast

jackiebaron wrote: »

This charming character murdered 24 civilians. His punishment, a pat on the back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16712488

My question is this.....should soldiers be allowed to murder and rape?

A war crime is only a war crime if you are on the losing side.

Overheal

Did he personally murder all 24, or was he part of the group that murdered 24.

Was it a pat on the back, or "three months confinement, reduction in rank and forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay"?

Is it really charming, or is it the Deprogramming and Reprogramming of soldiers for the military gone wrong when "seeing a friend blown apart by a bomb"? Hell, have you read some of the things the plebians in AH want to do to some of the people they hear about in the news? I've heard life term incarceration, murder, rape, and castration frequently touted as justifiable responses to crimes. And at a guess, those are just the impulsive outbursts of a few Irish keyboard warriors. Now what would actually happen if I was in a war zone and I just saw my friend transform from being one thing, to several small bloody things, traveling in multiple parabolic trajectories?

This isn't exactly a situation where he is going to walk away after 3 months (or indeed 8 years and 3 months) and still be psychologically intact afterwards.

cyberhog

MountainSniper wrote: »

In this incident, justice probably wasn't served, that wasn't really my point.

Well it does happen to be the point of the thread, but I can see you would rather focus on the conditions marines endure in the hope that you can garner some sympathy for these trained killers. Well this may come as a surprise to you but war is no picnic for the civilians either. How do you think the families of the unarmed Iraqi civilians slaughtered by your marine buddies feel? Have you ever seen a member of your family shot in the head at point blank range? How do you think Iraqi civilians feel when they see their loved ones being gunned down right before their eyes?

We could just as easily ask where is your compassion for the families of the unarmed civilians slaughtered by your marine buddies? However this thread is not about who we should feel sympathy for, it's about the unwillingness of the US military justice system to punish cold blooded killers accordingly.

MountainSniper

cyberhog wrote: »

Well it does happen to be the point of the thread, but I can see you would rather focus on the conditions marines endure in the hope that you can garner some sympathy for these trained killers. Well this may come as a surprise to you but war is no picnic for the civilians either. How do you think the families of the unarmed Iraqi civilians slaughtered by your marine buddies feel? Have you ever seen a member of your family shot in the head at point blank range? How do you think Iraqi civilians feel when they see their loved ones being gunned down right before their eyes?

We could just as easily ask where is your compassion for the families of the unarmed civilians slaughtered by your marine buddies? However this thread is not about who we should feel sympathy for, it's about the unwillingness of the US military justice system to punish cold blooded killers accordingly.

Actually, Its exactly my point, the military obviously took into account several factors you are not taking into account. The military often sends good soldiers away for a long time for much less than what happened here. Google Michael Behenna. The military releases much less evidence than does civilian court, so there is a strong probability you dont know this whole story, or even any of it other than 24 civilians were killed by marines.

Vadakin

When is a war crime a war crime? When the US or it's allies aren't the ones committing the act. Israel, for example, is guilty of numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity under international law but it will never be held to account because it is a western democracy allied to the United States.

Democracy and tyranny aren't mutually exclusive.

Memnoch

Overheal wrote: »

Did he personally murder all 24, or was he part of the group that murdered 24.

Was it a pat on the back, or "three months confinement, reduction in rank and forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay"?

Is it really charming, or is it the Deprogramming and Reprogramming of soldiers for the military gone wrong when "seeing a friend blown apart by a bomb"? Hell, have you read some of the things the plebians in AH want to do to some of the people they hear about in the news? I've heard life term incarceration, murder, rape, and castration frequently touted as justifiable responses to crimes. And at a guess, those are just the impulsive outbursts of a few Irish keyboard warriors. Now what would actually happen if I was in a war zone and I just saw my friend transform from being one thing, to several small bloody things, traveling in multiple parabolic trajectories?

This isn't exactly a situation where he is going to walk away after 3 months (or indeed 8 years and 3 months) and still be psychologically intact afterwards.

I'm sorry overheal, but you need to remember that the victims are the 24 people who were murdered. Even if he only killed one person, it's still murder and the crime should be punished as such.

This is why there is terrorism, this is why there is so much hatred against the West in Muslim countries. Not because they hate our way of life. But because innocent people get killed in cold blood, but rather than talking about how shameful it is that all of those families whose lives have been shattered are not going to get any justice, we are talking about how 3 months is a slap on the wrist or the psychological impact of going to war is punishment enough.

We go on and on about every single western soldier killed in duty. Look at the recent outcry over the 6 British soldiers that died. Yet there is very little comparitive acknowledgement of the lives lost as a result of our actions, time and time again.

What we are doing and saying every time is that western lives are worth more. And when we do that, especially when we are invading and dropping bombs and firing missiles from drones with impunity and without caring for civilian loss of life (something that would never happen if the civilians were Americans) then how can they not hate us? If we were in their shoes we would feel the same.

MountainSniper

Memnoch wrote: »

I'm sorry overheal, but you need to remember that the victims are the 24 people who were murdered. Even if he only killed one person, it's still murder and the crime should be punished as such.

This is why there is terrorism, this is why there is so much hatred against the West in Muslim countries. Not because they hate our way of life. But because innocent people get killed in cold blood, but rather than talking about how shameful it is that all of those families whose lives have been shattered are not going to get any justice, we are talking about how 3 months is a slap on the wrist or the psychological impact of going to war is punishment enough.

We go on and on about every single western soldier killed in duty. Look at the recent outcry over the 6 British soldiers that died. Yet there is very little comparitive acknowledgement of the lives lost as a result of our actions, time and time again.

What we are doing and saying every time is that western lives are worth more. And when we do that, especially when we are invading and dropping bombs and firing missiles from drones with impunity and without caring for civilian loss of life (something that would never happen if the civilians were Americans) then how can they not hate us? If we were in their shoes we would feel the same.

The argument that Muslims are only mad because we are occupying their land is nonsense. The first war America had overseas was against muslim terrorists, at that time called pirates, after they kidnapped Americans. Were we occupying their land in 1801?For centuries the Muslim pirates had cruised the Mediterranean Sea, capturing ships and taking prisoners, forcing Christian nations to pay tribute for freedom of passage. To avoid such confrontations, some Christian nations were willing to appease the Islamic enemy by signing treaties requiring them to pay a certain amount of tribute each year. It was a form of extortion that Muslims could impose on Christians.
The pirates also raided coastline villages and took prisoners. The reason why so many Christian Greek coastal villages were built up in the hills was to provide protection against the depredations of the Muslims. Millions of Africans and thousands of Christian Europeans and Americans were enslaved by these raiders, who killed many non-Muslim older men and women and kidnapped young women and children to be sold as concubines. The boys were often mutilated to create eunuchs for use in harems and as servants.
In 1786, Thomas Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and John Adams, then the American ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Tripolitan ambassador to Britain. American merchant ships had been captured by the Barbary corsairs and their crews and passengers imprisoned. They could only by freed by the payment of large ransoms. The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty to spare their ships these piratical attacks. Congress was willing to appease the Barbary pirates if only they could gain peace at a reasonable price.
During the meeting, Jefferson and Adams asked the ambassador why Muslims held such hostility toward America, a nation with which they had had no previous contacts. Jefferson later reported to John Jay what the ambassador had told them: the reason for the Muslims’ enmity was that it was written in their Koran that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every Muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to Paradise.

Memnoch

Seriously?

I don't mean to attack you personally, but I think if your mindset reflects that of the average American soldier then it's obvious why atrocities and abuses happen. You've been brainwashed to the point you just hate Muslims and you clearly think you/we are better than them. The kind of stuff you are talking about suggests you would have been more comfortable living in the era of the crusades. You need to open up your eyes and realise that Muslims by and large are no different to any other group of people on Earth.

The hardcore extremist muslims are very similar in almost all of their outlooks to the American christian right, which I would say make up about 20% of the US electorate.

I guarantee you, the vast majority of Muslims just want to raise their families, live in peace and go about their business. If we weren't constantly invading, installing dictators, supporting war lords, oppressing the palestinians etc. the region would slowly sort itself out.

The only negative generalisation I would have about Islam is that it is a few decades behind in terms of its evolutionary progress when compared to most other religions, but this is understandable because of how many Islamic countries have had west supported dictators. They just haven't had a true taste of freedom and all that brings.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Memnoch wrote: »

The hardcore extremist muslims are very similar in almost all of their outlooks to the American christian right, which I would say make up about 20% of the US electorate.

rofl

The only negative generalisation I would have about Islam is that it is a few decades behind in terms of its evolutionary progress when compared to most other religions, but this is understandable because of how many Islamic countries have had west supported dictators. They just haven't had a true taste of freedom and all that brings.

decades? try centuries.

Memnoch

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

rofl



decades? try centuries.

Rule of religion/Reduced separation of religion and government.
Less respect for women's rights.
Homophobia, personally and in politics.
Promotion of religion over science.
Hatred/distrust of anyone who is not them.

If this was in another thread, the above could easily reflect the thinking of the American right, the kind who vote for Santorum and Gingrich.

Like I said. Most of the people who hate Muslims are actually very similar in mindset to extremist muslims.

This is not surprising since extremist Muslims are hardcore right wingers, and so are the people that hate all Muslims.

Foghladh

Memnoch wrote: »

I guarantee you, the vast majority of Muslims just want to raise their families, live in peace and go about their business. If we weren't constantly invading, installing dictators, supporting war lords, oppressing the palestinians etc. the region would slowly sort itself out.

Well so long as you can guarantee it, that's good enough for me!