Help needed with career choice

Edgar_D

Hi all and apologies in advance for the long post.

I am an experienced engineer looking to switch careers and I am currently considering courses in psychology, psychotherapy and psychoanalysis. I have an interest in the workings of the mind, particularly in the areas of behavior and the unconscious mind and I believe that I might have an aptitude for working in this area.

As well as a couple of general introductions to psychology, I have read around the areas of social psychology, behavior and cognitive science and I enjoy writing and developing my own ideas. I am more attracted to the idea of working with people with real problems than the idea of working solely in research or academia.

I would love to do a higher diploma in psychology (two years part time) and then a masters in a suitable specialist area, however I do not have the luxuries of studying full time (I believe the counselling and clinical psychology are now both three year full time doctorates) or spending a long period in college.

I am therefore drawn towards psychotherapy or psychoanalysis and I am considering a higher diploma followed by a masters in DBS for the former or Independent College Dublin for the latter.

Has anyone here had experience, good or bad, of these courses? Am I missing any options in terms of psychology? Any advice would be welcome.

Odysseus

I would have a lot to say about it, as I did my degree and masters in DSB a long time ago. I also do some work for The Independant College, however; its late and it would take me a while to write it up. So I'll get back to you in a day or two. One question are you aware of the work of Lacan? As both of those courses are very Lacanian.

In the mean time if you can think of any more direct questions, fire them up.

bureau2009

Have you considered the evening course in DBS leading to a BA in Counselling?

I'm sure other people on here have far more knowledge than I have about it. However, I understand that, on completion, graduates are in a position to practise as counsellors (once accredited by a counselling body). It is not a psychology course as such.

Also I think DBS offer a post-grad evening conversion course leading to Diploma in Psychology - equivalent to a primary degree in Psychology.They also offer an evening BA in Psychology.

And I'm sure there's an interesting debate to be had as to whether Psychologists as opposed to Counsellors are best placed and trained to work with people!!! (only sayin'!)

And there's also the question of whether those working with people should have post-grad training as opposed to primary degree level??!

Odysseus

If you like psychoanalysis then go for the H Dip in DBS, from there you could do the clinical MA there or with The Independent College. You could also apply for the Msc in psychoanalysis which is run by UCD in St Vincent’s Hospital. If you do the Masters in DBS you will spend some time in St Vincent’s with the Msc course.


I did my BA in psychoanalysis and my Masters in DBS; I was already working in a clinical position so I did the MA by Research. So my only classes as such attending the clinical case conference in St Vincent’s with the MSc programme. Basically a lot of the lecturers teach on the same courses.

I really enjoyed my time at DBS, though there have been lots of changes since then, but if you are interested in the unconscious, then go for the H Dip in either college. I work in the HSE Addiction Services, there would be about four other therapists working there who started at DBS. However, trying to find a place for the role of speech and language within the HSE can be difficult; however, it can be done. Some of the other professionals I work with think I work within a totally outdated modality; however, they see clients changing their life’s and they keep me busy enough with referrals.

Is that any help to you?

sadie9

My advice would be to first do a Foundation in Counselling & Psychotherapy. There are a few of them around. Usually one night a week for 14 weeks or an intensive over a couple of weekends type of thing. Cost around 850 to 1400 euros or something like that.
This will give you a better idea of what is involved in the practice of counselling & psychotherapy.
You say you like the idea of working with real people rather than academia - so in a counselling foundation course there is plenty of opportunity for that because there would be some group work, role play etc and using each other as clients.

Edgar_D

Thanks Sadie, that's probably a good idea, I'll have a look at some foundation courses.

Bureau2009, my understanding is that the Hdip in psychotherapy DBS is an equivalent qualification to the BA in Councilling & Psychotherapy but can be done in two years as opposed to four, so that would be my preference. Yes, I have looked at the post grad diploma in psychology and I am interested however, can anyone tell me if this is a two year course or a four year course? The web page could be read either way.

Odysseus, I had a reply to your first post, painstakingly typed out on my iPhone and it disappeared somewhere into the ether when I hit submit the other day so I'll answer your first post first:

Yes, I have read a bit about Lacan and I know he is considered very important in psychoanalysis and this is one of the things that bothers me a little about the subject.

There seem to be very good, solid ideas underpinning Lacan's work however it always seems to be presented in a willfully abstract and ambiguous way, almost as though it was more art than science.

Don't get me wrong, I love art, but I think my interest in psychoanalysis lies more in the scientific side of the subject.

Given this, and my time constraints I am also tempted by the intensive, one-year H.Dip in Psychotherapy Studies in Independent College. Does anyone know if this course is sufficient to go on to a masters in psychotherapy or psychoanalysis in DBS if I choose to?

hotspur

If you are scientifically minded then I recommend staying very far away from psychoanalysis. Whatever else it may be, it is not scientific. So when you say that you are more interested in the scientific side of psychoanalysis I am wondering which side that is. About the closest I could point is in relational psychoanalysis (which I am interested in) which has links with attachment theory, intersubjectivity, and interpersonal neurobiology. But I don't think many are into that around these parts.

Also if you are very scientifically minded there is a point to be made that most counselling and psychotherapy courses are not very scientifically informed. The dominant modality within such courses in Ireland is humanistic, and having regard for the scientific method and evidence based practice will likely frustrate you in such environments.

I would suggest that pursuing psychotherapy through a psychology post grad is the best way to remain within the ethos of the scientific. So the H.Dip in psychology in DBS would be the best bet for that road (it is 2 years, they just call night time "part time").

One thing about the H.Dip in counselling and psychotherapy in DBS - my understanding is that course is not a clinical training in psychotherapy.

There are innumerable counselling and psychotherapy courses in Dublin btw. I'm not sure why you have narrowed it down to DBS and Independent Colleges, there are plenty of alternatives.

Also it should be pointed out that one does not necessarily need to have an undergraduate degree or H.Dip in the area of psychotherapy in order to pursue a Master's level training. There are several courses at post graduate level which are 4 year trainings in psychotherapy (first 3 for H.Dip, 4th for Master's) which don't really require a relevant undergraduate degree.

Although the advice to do an upcoming foundation certificate in counselling is good advice. A couple that I am familiar with that are upcoming are PCI's intensive foundation (http://www.pcicollege.ie/Foundation_in_Counselling___Psychotherapy__Intensive_/121) and IICP's one (http://iicp.ie/courses/certificate/).

Edgar_D

hotspur wrote: »

So when you say that you are more interested in the scientific side of psychoanalysis I am wondering which side that is.

Fair point Hotspur - I suppose I meant the scientific side of psychotherapy not psychoanalysis - though to dismiss psychoanalysis as entirely non scientific?... There are people better qualified than me to take up that baton!

hotspur wrote: »

I would suggest that pursuing psychotherapy through a psychology post grad is the best way to remain within the ethos of the scientific.

Can you do that? I'm pretty sure the psychoanalysis lecturer I talked to at DBS told me that if I did the H Dip in psychology I could not use it to get into the Masters in psychotherapy.

The main reason why I am looking at DBS and Independent Colleges is because they offer a route to a masters in four years or under and I couldn't find anywhere else that did (I have looked at PCI and ATI, and IICP amongst others).

If you could point me in the direction of other courses that do I'd be grateful and thanks for your post.

trace51

I'm not really an expert on the topic, but since you are interested in science have you looked at CBT? or some of the third wave behaviour therapies like ACT? They might be of interest to you

hotspur

When I suggested the H.Dip in psychology I kind of meant with the aim of going the psychology route post graduation i.e. training in counselling psychology rather than a Master's in psychotherapy. Although if you are interested in psychoanalysis then you can could progress to a Master's in psychoanalytic psychotherapy in TCD or UCD after such a H.Dip.

Other options for doing your Master's in psychotherapy from scratch that I can think of are DCU's ones - http://www.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=MDPC&originating_school=36 and http://www.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=MCOU&originating_school=36.

Turning Point's (which is accredited by DCU) - http://www.turningpoint.ie/education/integrative-counselling-a-psychotherapy.html?da380cd0de08346810a43c32cd83d05d=fdce14adae68779de4668732d67f373b

Tivoli - http://www.tivoliinstitute.com/professional_course_2006_dublin.asp

Odysseus

After reading the various posts, I think a broad programme in psychotherapy might be best for you. The Msc in UCD is very Lacanian as well, as you appear not to interested in that area; I do not think it would be the place for you.

Can I ask youn to expand in your interest in the unconscious, as most psychotherapies do not place much value in it, well not in my understanding of the unconscious. I ask as the more I read the more confused I am as to where your interest lies.

Edgar_D

trace51 wrote: »

I'm not really an expert on the topic, but since you are interested in science have you looked at CBT? or some of the third wave behaviour therapies like ACT? They might be of interest to you

Thanks Trace, yes I would like to learn about CBT or ACT but I don't see them as a career in themselves.

Thanks Hotspur, will check these out.

Odysseus wrote: »

After reading the various posts, I think a broad programme in psychotherapy might be best for you. The Msc in UCD is very Lacanian as well, as you appear not to interested in that area; I do not think it would be the place for you.

Can I ask youn to expand in your interest in the unconscious, as most psychotherapies do not place much value in it, well not in my understanding of the unconscious. I ask as the more I read the more confused I am as to where your interest lies.

Your confusion probably reflects the fact that I am somewhat confused myself in terms of what I should study. As I said in my first post, ideally I would do psychology, and perhaps thats what I should be looking at.

My interest in the unconscious mind was sparked by Freud and I don’t think that there is such a gulf between at least some of his theories, and science.

It seems to me that science is finally beginning to see that there is a massive amount of brain activity that we are not conscious of, and that there are conflicts within the brain, for example between right & left hemispheres and between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, much as Freud predicted.

Also, while I do not believe in Freud's theory of dreams, I am interested in their significance and I expect that in time science will show that they play a greater role in our decision making than is currently thought.

My interest in therapy stems from a curiosity as to how these things, and others, affect people’s lives and how to help people with these issues.

I’m not sure whether that helps clarify things or makes it more confusing!

JuliusCaesar

Edgar_D wrote: »

Thanks Trace, yes I would like to learn about CBT or ACT but I don't see them as a career in themselves.

CBT is actually a wide field which encompasses Behaviourism and Learning Theory, Cognitive Therapy, ACT, DBT, Schema Therapy, Mindfulness, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, Compassion Focussed Therapy etc etc etc. It's actually a school of related therapies, which have in common an interest in research and being evidence-based, in order to improve effectiveness. It's all heavily based on psychological theory. We have good especially good outcomes in depression and anxiety disorders, including disorders such as OCD which had previously been seen as untreatable. We are working now on improving treatment of psychosis and personality disorders. Beck said "If it works, it's CBT". But we like things not just to be effective, but explainable as well.

So, yes, a lot of people make their careers in this area! (Just ensure that if you do want to look into CBT, that you talk with the right people as everybody and their dog is claiming to be a CBT therapist these days. Links in the stickies.)

Edgar_D wrote: »

My interest in the unconscious mind was sparked by Freud and I don’t think that there is such a gulf between at least some of his theories, and science.

It seems to me that science is finally beginning to see that there is a massive amount of brain activity that we are not conscious of, and that there are conflicts within the brain, for example between right & left hemispheres and between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, much as Freud predicted.

I don't think anyone denies that the unconsious mind runs an awful lot without our conscious awareness - thank heavens. I for one am glad that I don't have to pay attention to have my heart beat, or my blood pressure regulate itself. Yes, of course there are emotional aspects to the unconsious mind too! Look up stuff on the theory of emotion, evolutionary psychology, cognitive biases and other heuristics.

Edgar_D wrote: »

Also, while I do not believe in Freud's theory of dreams, I am interested in their significance and I expect that in time science will show that they play a greater role in our decision making than is currently thought.

Check out some of the papers by Antti Revonsuo.

Edgar_D wrote: »

My interest in therapy stems from a curiosity as to how these things, and others, affect people’s lives and how to help people with these issues.

Without an evidence base, all you have is a belief system.


.

Valmont

Quickly off-topic:

Julius Caesar, would you recommend any book to introduce someone to the field of CBT? I would like to know more about its history, development and future, if you catch my drift.

hotspur

Valmont wrote: »

Quickly off-topic:

Julius Caesar, would you recommend any book to introduce someone to the field of CBT? I would like to know more about its history, development and future, if you catch my drift.

I know you asked JC, but this book is a very good introduction to cognitive therapy:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cognitive-Therapy-Introduction-Diana-Sanders/dp/1412907896

Edgar_D

Thanks for the comprehensive post and the links Julius. Sorry if it sounded like I was dismissing CBT, on the contrary, I think its very important. What I meant is that I would prefer a broader base to whatever career I might end up in.

In terms of the unconscious, the point I was trying to make was that it seems to me that the scientific community is coming to realise that the unconscious mind plays a greater role than previously thought in human behaviour, and this is an area that greatly interests me. I wasn't talking about the autonomic nervous system. I will follow up on your suggestions.

I read Revonsuo's paper on dreams with great interest. It is convincing and incredibly well researched but I can't help feeling that the conclusions fall a little short of the truth.

For what its worth i am currently looking a bit closer at taking the slightly longer route of doing psychology in DBS or OU first and then seeing where that leads me.

Enhtie

Edgar_D wrote: »

Fair point Hotspur - I suppose I meant the scientific side of psychotherapy not psychoanalysis - though to dismiss psychoanalysis as entirely non scientific?... There are people better qualified than me to take up that baton!



Can you do that? I'm pretty sure the psychoanalysis lecturer I talked to at DBS told me that if I did the H Dip in psychology I could not use it to get into the Masters in psychotherapy.

The main reason why I am looking at DBS and Independent Colleges is because they offer a route to a masters in four years or under and I couldn't find anywhere else that did (I have looked at PCI and ATI, and IICP amongst others).

If you could point me in the direction of other courses that do I'd be grateful and thanks for your post.

If you wish to take up a Foundation Course in Counselling as a first step in this discipline the editorial by Sarah Browne in "Therapy Today" may be of interest to you. The full article can be viewed on their website. I think it is very important that people enter these very expensive training courses with a realistic view of the career possibilities at the end of a very long road.



"As long as I’ve been editing this journal we’ve been receiving letters about the amount of people training to be counsellors (and the lack of jobs). The numbers have certainly swelled in recent years. In 2003 The Sunday Times reported that Britain ‘now has more counsellors than soldiers’. And last year I read that counselling had made it into a list for the top 10 most popular careers predicted for 2011. Yet the ratio of CPD adverts to job adverts in these pages has consistently been about 10:1.

There is clearly a lack of paid work or at least paid work that gets advertised. When I did my own training I felt uneasy when I realised that the training organisation were not making this situation clear to prospective students."

barbs77

Hello,

I'm new to the forum, and am having a similar dilemma as Edgar_D. I have done a foundation course in Counselling with NUI Maynooth and already have a BA in an unrelated discipline. On this basis, I would like to do a Masters in Psychotherapy in order to be able to practice as a counsellor and psychotherapist.

I was very interested in the MA in Psychotherapy offered by Independent Colleges, and was going to accept a place on the course starting later this month. But looking at the course content, I've realised that its Freudian/Lacanian focus may not be right for me. I am in fact more interested in the Humanistic / person-centered approach. On this basis, I've started to reconsider the BA in Psychotherapy offered by PCI or the diplomas in psychotherapy offered by Tivoli and the Dublin Counselling Centre. I have also been looking at the BA in psychotherapy in DBS.

One of the things that appealed to me about the Independent Colleges course was that it was possible to have a Masters and be fully qualified within two years, whereas with the other courses, it takes 3 years to do the Diploma and another year to get the BA or Msc, depending on the course.

I'm finding it very confusing. And while I have spoken to the course directors of some of the programmes, it's very difficult to get clarity on which option would be best for me as they are unable to speak impartially. If anyone has any advice, it would be very much appreciated!

Enhtie

It may be worth your while researching ICHAS. Their courses are accredited by HETAC so you may receive credits for previous qualifications received if relevant to their course. The fact that you have already completed a foundation course in Counselling may also be of merit to you.

Their courses are very competitively priced which is very important in today' current climate.

Best of luck with your studies.


Enhtie - do you have a connection with this college? It is important to declare it, if you do; and to say you are not connected if you are not. Two posts suddenly about this college looks suspicious. JC

barbs77 wrote: »

Hello,

I'm new to the forum, and am having a similar dilemma as Edgar_D. I have done a foundation course in Counselling with NUI Maynooth and already have a BA in an unrelated discipline. On this basis, I would like to do a Masters in Psychotherapy in order to be able to practice as a counsellor and psychotherapist.

I was very interested in the MA in Psychotherapy offered by Independent Colleges, and was going to accept a place on the course starting later this month. But looking at the course content, I've realised that its Freudian/Lacanian focus may not be right for me. I am in fact more interested in the Humanistic / person-centered approach. On this basis, I've started to reconsider the BA in Psychotherapy offered by PCI or the diplomas in psychotherapy offered by Tivoli and the Dublin Counselling Centre. I have also been looking at the BA in psychotherapy in DBS.

One of the things that appealed to me about the Independent Colleges course was that it was possible to have a Masters and be fully qualified within two years, whereas with the other courses, it takes 3 years to do the Diploma and another year to get the BA or Msc, depending on the course.

I'm finding it very confusing. And while I have spoken to the course directors of some of the programmes, it's very difficult to get clarity on which option would be best for me as they are unable to speak impartially. If anyone has any advice, it would be very much appreciated!

barbs77

Hi Enhtie,

Many thanks for your reply. The one year programme in ICHAS does look interesting, and is appealing in that it looks like it is possible to get a Masters in a year for approx 5,000 euro, but given some of the comments on this website I'm concerned that the course is not particularly well-respected by the psychotherapy community and that it would not be possible to find employment on the basis of this qualification.

I've put together a full excel spreadsheet with all the possibilities, from DBS to Tivoli to ICHAS to PCI and the Dublin Counselling Centre, in order to fully assess the options, but I'm as confused as ever about which course represents the most sure-fire way of gaining a recognised qualifications which will lead to solid employment. I'd hate to spend 20,000 euro or so on a course over 4 years only to find there was little or no possibility of earning a decent salary from my skills.

The deliberations continue!

bureau2009

I think there are two aspects to consider when choosing a training course:

1. Is it ACADEMICALLY recognised, ie does it lead to a recognised academic qualification, eg Degree from recognised university or HETAC.

2. Is it PROFESSIONALLY recognised, ie does it lead to PRACTITIONER level in that is is recognised by professional bodies. (And then you have to work out which are the most significant professional bodies!!).

Good luck with everything.

barbs77

Thanks Bureau. You've made a good point.

JuliusCaesar

bureau2009 wrote: »

(And then you have to work out which are the most significant professional bodies!!).

Generally, the significant bodies will be large, in existence for quite some considerable period, and be affiliated to a European-wide body.

To take ONE example, the Irish Council for Psychotherapy - which has a number of member organisations - is affiliated to the European Council for Psychotherapy.