Only violent criminals, paedophiles, rapists and major fraudsters should be jailed...

Worztron

Only violent criminals, paedophiles, rapists and major fraudsters should be jailed -- all others should do community service to work off their debt.

For example, jailing someone for cashing a fake €50 cheque is nuts -- the cost of court, jail, etc. will amount to way more than a poxy amount of €50.

For the likes of low lifes like Seán FitzPatrick -- they must be jailed as they can never work off their ill gotten gains.

mike65

If someone breaks in to my house I'd like them to do jail time to be honest. I doubt a bit of community work would really cut it.

Paddy Cow

Host hard core criminals were once normal people who started off doing petty crimes, got dealth with lightly by the courts, didn't learn any respect and decided to continue screwing the system, working their way up the criminal ladder.

Maybe if they were tougher in the beginning it might put people off becoming a career criminal?

Feeona

Worztron wrote: »

For example, jailing someone for cashing a fake €50 cheque is nuts --

And I think inmates shouldn't have access to the internet :mad:

Worztron

Feeona wrote: »

And I think inmates shouldn't have access to the internet :mad:

Agreed.

Jaafa

Clearly a point that has been well developed and thought out, over many months, taking into account the many intricacies of the matter. Good work OP.

davet82

Worztron wrote: »

Only violent criminals, paedophiles, rapists and major fraudsters should be jailed.

Whip the violent ones, castrate the pervs and jail the fraudsters.

Feeona

Worztron wrote: »

Agreed.

My head hurts :eek:

davet82

Jaafa wrote: »

Clearly a point that has been well developed and thought out, over many months, taking into account the many intricacies of the matter. Good work OP.

So you are giving him an F ? :rolleyes:

Lawrence1895

Politicians should be charged for treason, if they break pre-election promises, imo.

Worztron

Jaafa wrote: »

Clearly a point that has been well developed and thought out, over many months, taking into account the many intricacies of the matter. Good work OP.

What is your suggestion? Keep going with the current garbage system?

Jaafa

Worztron wrote: »

What is your suggestion? Keep going with the current garbage system?

That you reconsider your idea.

The current system may be bad, but your one is so general and vague it'd defiantly be worse.

Seachmall

davet82 wrote: »

Whip the violent ones, castrate the pervs and jail the fraudsters.

Whip the fraudsters and jail the violent ones imo.

But I like your style!

Worztron

Jaafa wrote: »

That you reconsider your idea.

The current system may be bad, but your one is so general and vague it'd defiantly be worse.

Its a start, it can be modified.

Nothingbetter2d

so drug dealing but not being a violent one is acceptable in your opinion OP? heroin destroys familes but as long as the dealer aint violent they can get away with it? NO NO NO

KTRIC

mike65 wrote: »

If someone breaks in to my house I'd like them to do jail time to be honest. I doubt a bit of community work would really cut it.

You're very leanient to be honest. If someone breaks into my house , they don't leave

landsleaving

Worztron wrote: »

What is your suggestion? Keep going with the current garbage system?

Are you saying we need a new sanitation commissioner?

Chuck Stone

Worztron wrote: »

Only violent criminals, paedophiles, rapists and major fraudsters should be jailed -- all others should do community service to work off their debt.

I would agree with the general gist of this.

People who commit fraud should have all their assets and property seized and should lose their rights to own property or travel out of the state.

Feeona wrote: »

And I think inmates shouldn't have access to the internet :mad:

Access should be restricted to educational and reference sites.

Worztron

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

so drug dealing but not being a violent one is acceptable in your opinion OP? heroin destroys familes but as long as the dealer aint violent they can get away with it? NO NO NO

Yes, add drug dealers to the jailed list. Definitely.

Jaafa

Worztron wrote: »

Its a start, it can be modified.

In that case you should know full well the types of modifications AH is going to suggest.

Batsy

Worztron wrote: »

Only violent criminals, paedophiles, rapists and major fraudsters should be jailed

No. They should be hanged.

Worztron

Jaafa wrote: »

In that case you should know full well the types of modifications AH is going to suggest.

AH?

Seachmall

Worztron wrote: »

Yes, add drug dealers to the jailed list. Definitely.

We could always sentence them to 10 years or whatever of community service. If they're not violent then they only pose a threat when dealing. Forcing them to clean my gutters will keep them from dealing and will keep my gutters clean.

Win/Win.

Worztron

Reviewed list:
burglars (certainly to homes)
drug dealers
major fraudsters
paedophiles
rapists
violent criminals

Jaafa

Worztron wrote: »

AH?

Chuck Stone

Worztron wrote: »

Reviewed list:
burglars (certainly to homes)
drug dealers
major fraudsters
paedophiles
rapists
violent criminals

Drugs should be legalised and regulated so I wouldn't have any dealers in my fantasy jail in my fantasy dictatoraucracy.

mikom

Worztron wrote: »

Only violent criminals, paedophiles, rapists and major fraudsters should be jailed -- all others should do community service to work off their debt.

For example, jailing someone for cashing a fake €50 cheque is nuts -- the cost of court, jail, etc. will amount to way more than a poxy amount of €50.

For the likes of low lifes like Seán FitzPatrick -- they must be jailed as they can never work off their ill gotten gains.

The UK seems to be coming around to your way of thinking...

Caught with six kilos of cannabis and you could still avoid jail

Drug runners and dealers could avoid prison even if caught with heroin, cocaine or thousands of pounds worth of cannabis.

Sentencing guidelines issued today say that offenders who play a “limited” role in gangs could face community orders for intent to supply Class A drugs.
Dealers caught with 6kg of cannabis, valued at £17,000 and enough to fill 30,000 joints or keep an average user in supply for 17 years, could also avoid prison.




The sentences on drug “mules” will be cut substantially, while workers in small cannabis “farms” could escape custody. Courts will be told for the first time to reduce sentences for cannabis possession if it is being used for medicinal purposes.




The guidelines maintain tough sentences for gang leaders and those who sell directly to the public, especially to children.



Rank and file police leaders said the guidelines were “daft” and warned that gang leaders would be able to escape jail by claiming that they were lesser members. Peter Smyth, the chairman of the Metropolitan branch of the Police Federation, said: “How can a court be expected to differentiate between the person who says I am very low in the chain and those high up? “No matter how big a role I played, if I was in their shoes and arrested for drugs I would say I was a low-level player or forcedinto it. If they can see a loophole then of course they will go through it.”



The guidelines, which come into effect next month, have been drawn up by the Sentencing Council and detail how the role and quantity of drugs should impact on sentencing. They were written after research for the council concluded that the public had “little support” for custody for possession offences or long prison terms for “small-scale supply” offences.


The publication comes after Sir Richard Branson, the Virgin chief executive, said in The Daily Telegraph that drugs should be decriminalised to free the police to tackle other crimes. Under the guidelines, courts are being told to treat those who perform “lesser” roles more leniently. They include minor members of drug-dealing gangs, such as a runner who ferries drugs from one gang member to another, someone who has “no influence on those above in the chain” or someone who has been coerced.



Low-level operatives caught with 6kg of cannabis, 20 Ecstasy tablets, valued at £80, or five grams of heroin, valued at £300, or five grams of cocaine, valued at £250, are likely to receive a community sentence. People who supply similar amounts to friends for no personal gain could also avoid prison.


The amounts have been significantly reduced since the Sentencing Council published draft guidelines last year when the levels proposed were 50 grams of Class A drugs and up to 99 Ecstasy pills. The final document also stressed that those who supplied directly to drug users and for a profit, such as street dealers or more significant criminals in the drug trade, could expect prison sentences.


Those selling Class A drugs face a starting point of four and a half years, with up to 16 years for a single incident, depending on the quantity of drugs involved. For the first time, anyone dealing to those aged under 18 will also face tougher treatment by judges.


Offenders in a leading role in the production or cultivation of 11lb (5kg) of heroin or cocaine or tens of thousands of Ecstasy tablets could face up to 16 years in prison, with a starting point of 14 years’ custody.
Those producing industrial quantities of cannabis for commercial purposes could also face up to 10 years in jail under the new guidelines.
Minor members of gangs operating cannabis farms of up to 28 plants could be given a community penalty.
The guidelines also state that possessing cannabis “to help with a diagnosed medical condition” is a mitigating factor.



Drug “mules” who can argue they were vulnerable targets and exploited by organised gangs may also receive a lighter sentence. Such offenders, often women forced or tricked into the crime, caught bringing in up to 1kg of Class A drugs would face a starting point of six years instead of the 11 for those playing a more significant role in the trafficking.



Lord Justice Hughes, the deputy chairman of the Sentencing Council, said: “Drug offending has to be taken seriously. Drug abuse underlies a huge volume of acquisitive and violent crime and dealing can blight communities.
“Offending and offenders vary widely so we have developed these guidelines to ensure there is effective guidance for sentencers and clear information for victims, witnesses and the public on how drug offenders are sentenced.



“Drug dealers can expect substantial jail sentences.”
The Association of Chief Police Officers said the move offered police “consistent guidance yet still provides the courts with flexibility to deal with each case on its own merits where appropriate”.
Martin Barnes, the chief executive of DrugScope, said: “We have long had concerns about the numbers of women involved in low-level supply and other offences as a result of violence and intimidation: far too many end up in the courts and in our prisons.
“We believe that these guidelines are a positive step forward in addressing this problem.”



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...#disqus_thread

Worztron

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Drugs should be legalised and regulated so I wouldn't have any dealers in my fantasy jail in my fantasy dictatoraucracy.

What? All drugs? No way! Sure, I have no problem with cannabis but draw the line with the likes of heroin, cocaine, etc.

Come up with constructive criticism instead of watery statements.

Worztron

Seachmall wrote: »

We could always sentence them to 10 years or whatever of community service. If they're not violent then they only pose a threat when dealing. Forcing them to clean my gutters will keep them from dealing and will keep my gutters clean.

Win/Win.

Community service should be utilised far more.

MyKeyG

I agree with the OP. Prison time should be reserved for serious crime or repeated minor transgression. Three strikes and you're out sort of thing. Giving petty criminals three weeks here and six weeks there is completely farcical. My mate went down for six weeks for a public offence. He chilled out and made some new friends at €2500 per week to the tax payer.

I've seen a number of cases where judges handed out time and the only conceivable reason was that they were in a bad mood. Most notably was an incident where a Clare judge sentenced one week imprisonment to a member of the public who forgot to turn off their mobile phone.

Chuck Stone

Worztron wrote: »

What? All drugs? No way! Sure, I have no problem with cannabis but draw the line with the likes of heroin, cocaine, etc.

Come up with constructive criticism instead of watery statements.

Yes all drugs. Take it out of the hands of gun-toting criminals and leave it to the market and regulated by the state.

Read this.

Paddy Cow

Seachmall wrote: »

We could always sentence them to 10 years or whatever of community service. If they're not violent then they only pose a threat when dealing. Forcing them to clean my gutters will keep them from dealing and will keep my gutters clean.

Win/Win.

Unless they are doing community service 24/7 under constant supervision, what makes you think they still won't continue dealing? At least in jail they'd only be able to deal to other criminals. Plus cleaning your gutters will give them great survellience on your house. I'm sure most drug dealers are fine upstanding citizens but would you really trust them not to come back and relieve you of your materialistic positions when you are at work?

charlemont

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

so drug dealing but not being a violent one is acceptable in your opinion OP? heroin destroys familes but as long as the dealer aint violent they can get away with it? NO NO NO

As it is Heroin dealers are being treated very leniently by the courts and Gardaí, A bit too lenient if you catch my drift !!

Now try getting caught growing Weed ???

Worztron

charlemont wrote: »

As it is Heroin dealers are being treated very leniently by the courts and Gardaí, A bit too lenient if you catch my drift !!

Now try getting caught growing Weed ???

Yep. I've never heard of someone on weed (only) attacking someone. I've heard stories of kids coming home with needles stuck in them (I remember a story on news about such an instance).

Helix

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

so drug dealing but not being a violent one is acceptable in your opinion OP? heroin destroys familes but as long as the dealer aint violent they can get away with it? NO NO NO

heroin users destroy families

heroin doesn't have any say in the matter

Seachmall

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Unless they are doing community service 24/7 under constant supervision, what makes you think they still won't continue dealing? At least in jail they'd only be able to deal to other criminals. Plus cleaning your gutters will give them great survellience on your house. I'm sure most drug dealers are fine upstanding citizens but would you really trust them not to come back and relieve you of your materialistic positions when you are at work?

Enforce curfew.
Monitor with Ankle Bracelet.

mackg

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

so drug dealing but not being a violent one is acceptable in your opinion OP? heroin destroys familes but as long as the dealer aint violent they can get away with it? NO NO NO

Alcohol and gambling are legal and addiction to them does the same thing. Should a publican who serves a chronic alcoholic with a family not be in the same bracket as a heroin dealer by that logic?

Paddy Cow

Seachmall wrote: »

Enforce curfew.
Monitor with Ankle Bracelet.

Phone a friend.
Get % for every house that is successfully robbed.

Seachmall

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Phone a friend.
Get % for every house that is successfully robbed.

So, both these men are criminals and likely to rob my house?

In my scenario only one is capable of robbing my house, which is twice as good as both of them being capable of robbing my house.

If them having line-of-sight to my house is the issue, and not the fact that they're criminals, then I think we're going the wrong way with this whole "legal system" of ours anyway...

Paddy Cow

Seachmall wrote: »

So, both these men are criminals and likely to rob my house?

In my scenario only one is capable of robbing my house, which is twice as good as both of them being capable of robbing my house.

If them having line-of-sight to my house is the issue, and not the fact that they're criminals, then I think we're going the wrong way with this whole "legal system" of ours anyway...

I don't understand what you are saying?

Seachmall

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I don't understand what you are saying?

Having him perform community service during the day and enforcing a monitored curfew during the night is, arguably, a decent system. If he uses his access to look into houses and informs his friends of his findings then it's a non-issue because his friends could scope and burglarize houses anyway. This way he is at least costing less than if he were in prison (presumably anyway, I don't know) and if his friends are caught burglarizing houses he could possibly be done on conspiracy charges or for violating the terms of his community service.

Chuck Stone

Just have them cleaning graffiti and clearing scrub from overgrown streams and stuff. They don't need to be near anyone's property.

Seachmall

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Just have them cleaning graffiti and clearing scrub from overgrown streams and stuff. They don't need to be near anyone's property.

I think you'll find my gutters are a threat to public safety and must be maintained by the soft touch of a convicted drug dealer.

bfocusd

I think people who are constantly committing petty crimes should be enrolled in the army, part time or full time depending on the sentence. it would teach them to respect authority and they could complete tasks and things that give back to the community, like maintaining areas seen as deprived and general tasks, maintaining playgrounds and public spaces. Nothing like fixing roads etc.

It's better than locking them up for a week or whatever and will teach them self respect

Paddy Cow

Seachmall wrote: »

Having him perform community service during the day and enforcing a monitored curfew during the night is, arguably, a decent system. If he uses his access to look into houses and informs his friends of his findings then it's a non-issue because his friends could scope and burglarize houses anyway. This way he is at least costing less than if he were in prison (presumably anyway, I don't know) and if his friends are caught burglarizing houses he could possibly be done on conspiracy charges or for violating the terms of his community service.

Ok that makes more sense. I still wouldn't like a drug dealer cleaning my gutters though. I think there is a risk that he would know some dodgey people who would take advantage of his knowledge of homes.

Paddy Cow

bfocusd wrote: »

I think people who are constantly committing petty crimes should be enrolled in the army, part time or full time depending on the sentence. it would teach them to respect authority and they could complete tasks and things that give back to the community, like maintaining areas seen as deprived and general tasks, maintaining playgrounds and public spaces. Nothing like fixing roads etc.

It's better than locking them up for a week or whatever and will teach them self respect

The army don't want them though.

Seachmall

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Ok that makes more sense. I still wouldn't like a drug dealer cleaning my gutters though. I think there is a risk that he would know some dodgey people who would take advantage of his knowledge of homes.

The original mention of gutters was tongue-in-cheek. I don't really expect the government to pay for my house to be maintained.

All is well in the Seachmall household anyway, gutters seem to be in check afaik.

SeanW

I'd add vandals to your list, you know, people who smash windows, cut public utility wires and set fire to cars and buildings just for kicks.

Either that or hang the f***ers.

Cuddlesworth

Well jail as a concept has failed. In the same way our drugs policy's have. Norway's prison system has a 20% re-conviction rate rather then our 50-60%. I'd like to see a similar concept here with a traditional prison and much longer sentences for those hard-core criminals who will simply never learn.

44leto

I am all for building more prisons and even more over crowding. I would pack them in sidewards.

As i was walking down Talbot Street a few nights ago I watched a scumbag kicking the glass door till the glass shattered of a Spar shop then racially abusing the clerks who challenged him, the scummer just walked away with no fear, knowing he would get away with it.

Fourteen

AH is like the Adrian Kennedy show +1. The same topics a day later.