Adults only at the Dart ticket machine?

Atlantic Dawn

Spotted this letter in todays Irish Times

A reader from Marino had a bizarre and frustrating experience while trying to bring his young children home from Dublin city centre last weekend.
He went into Pearse Dart station on a Saturday afternoon and noticed that the ticket desk was unmanned. This is not an uncommon occurrence at quiet times, so he thought nothing of it and made his way, with children in tow, to a ticket-vending machine. He bought himself an adult single and paid the full fare. So far, so good. Then he tried to buy his children their tickets, but was unable to find an option to pay a child’s fare.

Kenny said that Irish Rail added child tickets to its ticket-vending machines in October 2009. “However, in the Dart/commuter area, there was a notable level of misuse of child tickets by adults, resulting in loss of revenue,” he said. “Despite our revenue protection officers focusing on penalising such fare evasion, the problem continued, and we decided, in the Dart/commuter area only, to withdraw child tickets for sale from vending machines, in September 2011.”

He said that, in the coming weeks, Irish Rail would be adding a facility to its machines to allow child tickets to be purchased with adult tickets. A child Leap Card is also about to be introduced in Dublin, covering all modes of transport. “While the situation is not ideal, we must – particularly at a time when funding is being cut significantly – take steps to protect revenue, to cover our costs and maintain services to the public,” Kenny said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/pricewatch/2012/0123/1224310621695.html

How is it legal to not allow a child to purchase a ticket through the ticket machine on the basis that no verification exists to verify they are a child? I'd be of the opinion that legally children should travel for free if the machine doesn't allow them to purchase a ticket appropriate to them. The policing of who is and isn't a child should be Irish Rails problem and not the consumers. I'm suprised the Consumers' Association of Ireland isn't on the case.

TheChrisD

See: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76401342

Cookie_Monster

A child fare is just a concession on a full fare and they are well within they're rights not to issue it if they do not wish to.
The problem of course is not IE (for once) but the usual scumbag element of Irish socity that insist on taking the piss and abusing the rules.

foggy_lad

It seems a typical Irish Rail solution though to actually lose money by not selling child tickets in order to stop fraud but if all the adult fraudsters are now buying full adult tickets then the losses will be minimal but how many will have bought a free travel pass off their local thug/dealer/career criminal?

How could Irish Rail simply discontinue offering child fares from its ticket machines and not tell anyone about it?

Because they are not accountable to anyone. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/pricewatch/2012/0123/1224310621695.html

Atlantic Dawn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A child fare is just a concession on a full fare and they are well within they're rights not to issue it if they do not wish to.
The problem of course is not IE (for once) but the usual scumbag element of Irish socity that insist on taking the piss and abusing the rules.

There's fines and a legal system to handle those taking advantage of the system, punishing the entire paying public is crazy. In Spain not only do the ticket machines give concessions for childs tickets but you can also purchase over 55 tickets at a discount. They should either ditch the machines and return to the manned ticket booths or else update the machines. They want to have a referendum on childrens rights in the country this year yet a child can't even purchase a ticket for the train.

If they want to save money chasing people evading fares they should look at the hundreds of people each day who tailgate other commuters going through the automatic turnstyles in the city centre.

n97 mini

The funny thing is this was meant to stop 16-18 year olds intentionally travelling on under-16 tickets.

But instead they probably all just do what under-16s do... travel for free as they can't buy a ticket!

Losty Dublin

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There's fines and a legal system to handle those taking advantage of the system, punishing the entire paying public is crazy. In Spain not only do the ticket machines give concessions for childs tickets but you can also purchase over 55 tickets at a discount. They should either ditch the machines and return to the manned ticket booths or else update the machines. They want to have a referendum on childrens rights in the country this year yet a child can't even purchase a ticket for the train.

If they want to save money chasing people evading fares they should look at the hundreds of people each day who tailgate other commuters going through the automatic turnstyles in the city centre.

The point though is that people who were not entitled to travel with children's tickets were buying them from the machine and using them. I agree that it's not ideal but if people abuse a concessionary fare from a TVM then it isn't surprising when the concession is removed from the TVM.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The point though is that people who were not entitled to travel with children's tickets were buying them from the machine and using them. I agree that it's not ideal but if people abuse a concessionary fare from a TVM then it isn't surprising when the concession is removed from the TVM.

But those same people will just travel without any ticket at all now because the gates at all dart stations are left open/unlocked when the stations are unmanned to allow for DSP pass holders to use the stations.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The point though is that people who were not entitled to travel with children's tickets were buying them from the machine and using them.

And now, along with genuine under-16s, they're not buying any ticket at all, and will claim they're under 16 if asked.

As stated on a previous thread, my 15 year old daughter travels between two unmanned stations every weekend. Prior to this she always bought a ticket, now she never buys a ticket.

n97 mini

I wonder could we find out what impact on overall revenue this decision has made. I wonder do IE even know.

Cookie_Monster

Maybe IE should apply for this jobs bridge thing and get unemployed people to become ticket checkers.

A similar scheme is done in Munich (Germany?), and because of it there are ticket checkers in plain clothes with ID on nearly every train. Fruad is minimised, revenue protected and unemployment reduced a little.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

And now, along with genuine under-16s, they're not buying any ticket at all, and will claim they're under 16 if asked.

As stated on a previous thread, my 15 year old daughter travels between two unmanned stations every weekend. Prior to this she always bought a ticket, now she never buys a ticket.

You are missing the points here.

1) A concessionary fare is just that; a fare with a concession . It isn't always going to be available all the time. You can't get a child fare on a special service to a GAA/Rugby match, a school fare on a Sunday or a DSP pass on a Nitelink.

2) If a concession rate is available from any business or service and it's being abused by customers then you can't complain when it's removed. I agree that it's not ideal but if you can't trust people.....

3) Your daughter is traveling without a ticket; there is nothing stopping her from purchasing a Leap card or an adult fare. I can't wait to hear the whinging out of you when she is caught

thomasj

This was brought up on the fm104 phone show last week.

Basically two children arrived at booterstown, there was no ticket person at the ticket office, and as there is no child options at the ticket machine the train arrived suddenly and they got on.

Ticket inspector got on they gave the fare but he was having none of it and issued the fine.

Atlantic Dawn

The tickets say Adult on them, it doesn't say full fare/non concessionary fare so from a legal point of view it's not valid for a child to purchase one.

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You are missing the points here.

1) A concessionary fare is just that; a fare with a concession . It isn't always going to be available all the time. You can't get a child fare on a special service to a GAA/Rugby match, a school fare on a Sunday or a DSP pass on a Nitelink.

2) If a concession rate is available from any business or service and it's being abused by customers then you can't complain when it's removed. I agree that it's not ideal but if you can't trust people.....

3) Your daughter is traveling without a ticket; there is nothing stopping her from purchasing a Leap card or an adult fare. I can't wait to hear the whinging out of you when she is caught

Yes they are the rules on this matter... But do you think they are a reasonable application of the principles of revenue protection?? I rather don't like considering that many people can easily countenance such a situation. Like a situation where no allowance is made for children who would have had the price of a child's ticket but not an adult one.

I think the Leap Card offers a practical solution to this but I reckon a more discretionary view on this would avoid some clear controversies with people. Irish Rail could spend a lot of money on PR exercises but these kind of things undermine the effectiveness of good PR and customer relations in the eyes of Joe Public.

Cookie_Monster

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The tickets say Adult on them, it doesn't say full fare/non concessionary fare so from a legal point of view it's not valid for a child to purchase one.]

Not true, you are not legally an adult until 18, yet are classed as an adult from 16 on public transport anyway so it's hardly an issue.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You are missing the points here.

1) A concessionary fare is just that; a fare with a concession . It isn't always going to be available all the time. You can't get a child fare on a special service to a GAA/Rugby match, a school fare on a Sunday or a DSP pass on a Nitelink.

2) If a concession rate is available from any business or service and it's being abused by customers then you can't complain when it's removed. I agree that it's not ideal but if you can't trust people.....

3) Your daughter is traveling without a ticket; there is nothing stopping her from purchasing a Leap card or an adult fare. I can't wait to hear the whinging out of you when she is caught

Why on earth did the clowns in Irish rail not properly advertise the fact then that they were doing away with all child tickets fron any station that is unmanned in the short hop zone and also for intercity travel? If parents know they will have to pay full price adult fares for their children it won't be as bad and we won't have any situations where children arrive at stations with only enough for the concession fare.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You are missing the points here.

Like IE you're missing the reality: if she can't buy and under-16 she won't buy an adult. She's not unique.

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Not true, you are not legally an adult until 18, yet are classed as an adult from 16 on public transport anyway so it's hardly an issue.

It's actually the other way around when it comes to travel. Adult is the catch all ticket and that's what you use unless you have the eligilbes/proof for a concession rate. Students are 16+ and they are granted concessionary rates subject to proof; OAPs have concession rates as well, subject to. If you can't prove you are entitled to avail of a concessionary ticket, it's not available and then the adult ticket is what you have to get

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Like IE you're missing the reality: if she can't buy and under-16 she won't buy an adult. She's not unique.

No. She chooses not to buy it.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No. She chooses not to buy it.

That's just a ridiculous argument. You and IE need to wake up and get real.

She can't buy under-16 tickets because IE chose not to sell them.

She won't waste money on adult tickets, because she's entitled to an under-16 ticket.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

She won't waste money on adult tickets, because she's entitled to an under-16 ticket.

No she is not "entitled" to a child ticket.

The whole concept of a child ticket is ridiculous. A child other then an infant takes up the same space as an adult and therefore should pay the same fare.

Irish Rail has decided to give parents a break and give them a reduction for a child ticket, but it is totally up to IR if they want to do this or not. There is no "right" for a child to travel for less. Why should there be?

If your daughter is caught without a ticket, she will be fined.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

That's just a ridiculous argument. You and IE need to wake up and get real.

She can't buy under-16 tickets because IE chose not to sell them.

She won't waste money on adult tickets, because she's entitled to an under-16 ticket.

She is entitled to an U 16 ticket.... If they sold them from machines anymore. The fact that she couldn't get one doesn't mean she can now travel for free; buy her a Leap card and she will save more again

schemingbohemia

n97 mini wrote: »

That's just a ridiculous argument. You and IE need to wake up and get real.

She can't buy under-16 tickets because IE chose not to sell them.

She won't waste money on adult tickets, because she's entitled to an under-16 ticket.

You are chosing to not buy her a leap card or any type of pre-paid ticket to enable her to evade the fare.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

No she is not "entitled" to a child ticket.

The whole concept of a child ticket is ridiculous. A child other then an infant takes up the same space as an adult and therefore should pay the same fare.

Irish Rail has decided to give parents a break and give them a reduction for a child ticket, but it is totally up to IR if they want to do this or not. There is no "right" for a child to travel for less. Why should there be?

If your daughter is caught without a ticket, she will be fined.

With this kind of attitude it is no wonder irish fail are in the poorhouse with the bailiffs banging on the door! They will drive away the few families that still chose to travel with sh1t like this but it is not surprising with the Michael o'leary clone that seems to run the show!

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You are chosing to not buy her a leap card or any type of pre-paid ticket to enable her to evade the fare.

It is not s requirement to have either a leap card or any prepaid ticket to travel, but Irish rail would love to force us to do it their way. What is wrong with buying the child ticket at a ticket office or if they are unmanned the ticket gets bought on board or at the destination? Is that not how Irish rail have advertised it works themselves?

Losty Dublin wrote: »

She is entitled to an U 16 ticket.... If they sold them from machines anymore. The fact that she couldn't get one doesn't mean she can now travel for free; buy her a Leap card and she will save more again

She should be buying the ticket on the train or at the destination station and only if this is not possible does any passenger get to travel free!

There is NO obligation on a child or any other passenger to have a leap card or any other prepaid ticket to use the dart or any Irish fail services!

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

The whole concept of a child ticket is ridiculous. A child other then an infant takes up the same space as an adult and therefore should pay the same fare.

That's a very petty and naive statement. Do you honestly think that there are no economic benefits for Irish Rail in applying price discrimination like this? They're certainly not alone in this regard, almost all transport operators on this island and also abroad also employ this. Though if anything, commuter services like the Dart are the ones with no child concession.

For the various accrued social benefits of allowing an effectively incomeless group of people access to a safe and easily-manageable form of transport (particularly younger adolescents who don't need their hand held), I think it's well worth it. At least for PSO operators here.

And what of the Dart service anyway, where there is substantial standing capacity at peak times whereby children would indeed take up less space??

Carawaystick

bk wrote: »

No she is not "entitled" to a child ticket.

The whole concept of a child ticket is ridiculous. A child other then an infant takes up the same space as an adult and therefore should pay the same fare.

Irish Rail has decided to give parents a break and give them a reduction for a child ticket, but it is totally up to IR if they want to do this or not. There is no "right" for a child to travel for less. Why should there be?

If your daughter is caught without a ticket, she will be fined.

Completely wrong, the nta who fund the CIÉ companies have set a maximum child fare, see table nine in Cie-operators-fares.increases-Dec-2011.pdf published by the nta

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

... with the Michael o'leary clone that seems to run the show!

If that's the case why are IE trains not full to bursting full of people on every journey and making an absolute fortune doing it?

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If that's the case why are IE trains not full to bursting full of people on every journey and making an absolute fortune doing it?

I never said the clone was doing a good job.