Schools Rugby: Doping And Supplements

rugbyman2015

Having read that article in the Irish Times there last week about the schools players and their supplements and the announcement of drugs testing back in November, what are peoples opinions on schools rugby today? (in both an Irish context and in other countries)

Are players going to the extremes to bulk up for the cup tournaments and what should be done to control this gym culture?

Sindri

Do you have a link to the article?

mikedragon32

It was discussed here a week or so ago, but here's a link to the article in the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0116/1224310310136.html

amacachi

Teenagers with pimples on their faces and short tempers? Sounds like an epidemic of creatine usage.

justsomebloke

a badly written piece of utter tripe. I suppose they are at least getting the message out there that eating beef is bad for you and gives you "beef rage" and pimples

its_phil

justsomebloke wrote: »

a badly written piece of utter tripe. I suppose they are at least getting the message out there that eating beef is bad for you and gives you "beef rage" and pimples

So you dont think there is drugs in schools rugby?

justsomebloke

its_phil wrote: »

So you dont think there is drugs in schools rugby?

the article has nothing to do with drugs

ray jay

It's funny that all the things they mention (protein, creatine, caffeine) are all in food that no one would blink an eye at consuming, but if you have a tub of whey or creatine then you get referred to a medical professional! I suspect the reason their use is discouraged is to get the kids to develop the more important habit of eating well to start with. Eat plenty of beef and drink a coffee before hitting the gym and you don't need those supplements.

justsomebloke

The Australian Institute of sport have creatine and whey in group A which are

wrote:

These sports foods and supplements:
provide a useful and timely source of energy and nutrients in the athlete's diet, or
have been shown in scientific trials to benefit performance, when used according to a specific protocol in a specific situation in sport.

here is a pdf from the same source on creatine


*note* before anyone thinks of taking supplements please make sure yourself aware of the correct manner in which to take them

its_phil

justsomebloke wrote: »

the article has nothing to do with drugs

The article has been inspired by drug testing being introduced, which was brought in especially after the case in South Africa with the four schoolboys being caught with performance enhancers.

Huge acne can be a result of players taking these enhancers. Obviously puberty as well, but if you were to look through photos of senior games in the past few years you would be very surprised at a couple of players size and their faces.

WeeBushy

its_phil wrote: »

The article has been inspired by drug testing being introduced, which was brought in especially after the case in South Africa with the four schoolboys being caught with performance enhancers.

The article itself, not the headline, focuses on supplements. Primarily protein and creatine. Neither of which are performance enhancing drugs.

its_phil wrote: »

Huge acne can be a result of players taking these enhancers. Obviously puberty as well, but if you were to look through photos of senior games in the past few years you would be very surprised at a couple of players size and their faces.

Correlation =/= causation.

Creatine and protein do not cause acne; find me one proper study that says otherwise. You'll be looking for a while...

justsomebloke

its_phil wrote: »

The article has been inspired by drug testing being introduced, which was brought in especially after the case in South Africa with the four schoolboys being caught with performance enhancers.

Yes the article is inspired by drug testing but that is where it's associations with drug stops.

The article is just a scare mongering piece on supplements with little to no reference to any actual studies to back up the claims made in it.

It's sensationalist crap at is best by a reporter who has no compression of what they are talking about

ray jay

justsomebloke wrote: »

It's sensationalist crap at is best by a reporter who has no compression of what they are talking about

This line really stood out to me:

"The general concern [about creatine] is the long-term effect of something that supplies between two and three times the amount of energy that can be gleaned from a very high protein diet."

Everything in that sentence is wrong.

Stanza2

Upsetting in the extreme ! have a young lad (16) who plays rugby, loves the game, trains hard and has never taken a milk shake nevermind a protein shake but ........... has really bad achne, been to Doctor got all the creams in the world. keep telling him it will pass as it did for me. He got very upset reading that article as we all did. Unless there is serious proof that high end lads are doing this, then this is not just a bad piece of sensationalist journalism, it is wholly irresponsible. Young men (and girls) and pimples go hand in glove. The one with muscles are now druggies?

Bad and Sad piece of writing

its_phil

WeeBushy wrote: »

The article itself, not the headline, focuses on supplements. Primarily protein and creatine. Neither of which are performance enhancing drugs.



Correlation =/= causation.

Creatine and protein do not cause acne; find me one proper study that says otherwise. You'll be looking for a while...

Your not reading what I said properly. There is testing now in schools rugby to catch drug cheats. I've trying to make the point of illegal performance enhancing drugs such as anabolic steroids. I know protein and creatine aren't illegal, where did I say they cause acne? Christ I use protein and creatine and I think they are great. Never had a problem with them, I even championed for them to be used when I was in school, when my old school started banning them.

But anabolic steroids do cause serious acne, which is the point I'm trying to make. And if you were to flick through schools photos from the last couple years you will see that huge bulk and acne come hand in hand in a lot of these photos.

Illegal supplements are being used in the schools game and that's the point I'm making. I'm not trying to make the point of "oh acne and muscles, must be steroid user!" as much as it does come across, I really am not because I do feel for poor lads who have it and are in a honest very self-conscience situation, but I've seen the effects and know people who've done it so I'm always going to be suspicious which I am very sorry to say.

ray jay

its_phil wrote: »

Illegal supplements are being used in the schools game and that's the point I'm making.

Prove it.

its_phil

ray jay wrote: »

Prove it.

I'm not naming and shaming on here but I'll gladly PM you in the confidence that you will not reiterate or repost on this forum.

Fair enough?

amacachi

its_phil wrote: »

Your not reading what I said properly. There is testing now in schools rugby to catch drug cheats. I've trying to make the point of illegal performance enhancing drugs such as anabolic steroids.

In the article an apparently top-level coach says he thinks they do.


As usual when it comes to anything to do with drugs it seems this country is going with the "Just say it's all awful" line and will then be surprised when it doesn't work out. Supplements are fine in principle. In some of them there are substances that will cause a positive result. Generally they'll be at such low levels that they'll have no effect but will still show up in a test. Are the Union advising that kids should be told which ones to avoid and which to go for? No, they're just saying "Don't take anything". That's not going to happen, kids will go for whatever gets the best reviews and in some cases it'll lead to a ban for a genuine mistake.

Idiocy of the highest order.

ray jay

its_phil wrote: »

I'm not naming and shaming on here but I'll gladly PM you in the confidence that you will not reiterate or repost on this forum.

Fair enough?

Yep, I'll agree to that. I would be very surprised if steroids are used, though I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that ephedrine or yohimbine are being taken. All pretty unnecessary in my opinion, teenagers are well capable of piling on muscle or losing fat with good nutrition and training.

Stanza2

I am sure that your intention is honourable Phil, and all kids should be actively discouraged from partaking in supplements of any kind to be honest, up to a certain age at least. It is just the link between achne and muscles that I find strange. Lots of boys can work hard in the Gym and eat the correct food, improve their bodies for the games that they play (not just rugby, GAA too) and still get lots of spots!!!! our climate is not condusive to silky smooth skin and the wonderful vitamin D (which sunlight gives) is rare in our land.

The article links both and I think that it should be worded more carefully. Never turn a blind eye to cheats or things that could harm our future generations. Teenagers, male and female are super sensitive about appearances. Achne is unavoidable in most of them and you do put it down as the "tell tale" sign.

amacachi

Stanza2 wrote: »

I am sure that your intention is honourable Phil, and all kids should be actively discouraged from partaking in supplements of any kind to be honest, up to a certain age at least. It is just the link between achne and muscles that I find strange. Lots of boys can work hard in the Gym and eat the correct food, improve their bodies for the games that they play (not just rugby, GAA too) and still get lots of spots!!!! our climate is not condusive to silky smooth skin and the wonderful vitamin D (which sunlight gives) is rare in our land.

The article links both and I think that it should be worded more carefully. Never turn a blind eye to cheats or things that could harm our future generations. Teenagers, male and female are super sensitive about appearances. Achne is unavoidable in most of them and you do put it down as the "tell tale" sign.

I don't see the issue with supplements in and of themselves, they're just most convenient than frying some steak and and drinking a litre of skimmed milk. It should be a case-by-case thing that managers, coaches and family can keep and eye on and educate the players about it. From the sounds of it it seems some of the coaches could do with some education on the matter as well.

its_phil

Stanza2 wrote: »

I am sure that your intention is honourable Phil, and all kids should be actively discouraged from partaking in supplements of any kind to be honest, up to a certain age at least. It is just the link between achne and muscles that I find strange. Lots of boys can work hard in the Gym and eat the correct food, improve their bodies for the games that they play (not just rugby, GAA too) and still get lots of spots!!!! our climate is not condusive to silky smooth skin and the wonderful vitamin D (which sunlight gives) is rare in our land.

The article links both and I think that it should be worded more carefully. Never turn a blind eye to cheats or things that could harm our future generations. Teenagers, male and female are super sensitive about appearances. Achne is unavoidable in most of them and you do put it down as the "tell tale" sign.

I am completley 100% sympathetic with what your saying. But it's a, not "the" tell tale sign to me that makes me suspicious and like I said I am sorry that's the way I think but it is unfortunately the way I am.

rugbyman2015

Have to agree and I knew it myself that the irish times article was mostly rubbish but what worries me is that we are seeing some players losing the run of themselves using all those pre-workout drinks, fat burners and even a few going for testosterone boosters and other anabolic precursors. The protein/creatine debate should be put to bed because we all know they are fine and are legal under WADA rules. However, with the cases in south africa and having heard from a relative involved in underage rugby in wales, some schoolboys have no problem using anabolic steroids.

We need to stamp out the use of these dangerous supplements and encourage players what are the 'good' and beneficial supplements. If we let this continue and the testing isn't strict enough in terms of how many players they will screen and when, then a bad influence will only spread and irish schools rugby could be badly compromised.

I have looked at New Zealand schools rugby and have picked up a few things.

-Skill plays a huge role in every team and training is centered around that
- Players are not overly exposed to the gym and are instead given a concise and functional programme. Further player physical development is left to the franchises once the players leave school.
-The pace of games is frantic and as a result, fitness training is performed regularly rather than an extra weights session.

Paparazzo

The article is written in the Daily Mail style. Nice cut and paste from wiki too.

Article:

There’s that dirty word. Creatine. This nitrogenous organic acid occurs naturally in vertebrates and helps to supply energy to all cells in the body, primarily muscle

First line on Wiki avout Creatine:

Creatine is a nitrogenous organic acid that occurs naturally in vertebrates and helps to supply energy to all cells in the body, primarily muscle.

That just gives you an idea of how much effort Gavin Cummiskey put into the article.

WeeBushy

That's really really poor journalism. I did think it sounded a bit odd in the context of the article when reading it.

rugbyman2015

Be nice if gerry thornley was interested in writing a few articles on the schools rugby.

When I heard the times were doing a report on the schools and supplements, I really expected something of far more substantial quality than the article we got that went in endless circles.