No debt writedown while establishment vastly overpays itself

femur61

According to Stephen Donnelly said there will no debt writedown while many of our civil cervants are vastly overpaid compared to our european counterparts. He said the EU it amamzing we are borrowing money off them to pay our civil servants more money than they earn.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1132102

We have three teachers running the country Kenny, Noonan and Howlin so if the CS/PS wage is targeted their ex colleagues will be in the firing line. He did say senior civil servants but to me all the same. Unions are running (ruining) the country.

coolshannagh28

Agreed ,the amazing thing is that we appear to be borrowing vast sums of money so that PS workers can save it ,if the stats coming from the banks on savings rates can be believed .
However the Troika are treating Ireland leniently because they need a result ,austerity has failed in Greece and Portugal and Ireland is the poster boy so we must succeed .
This may appear good but in reality a default would be preferable since only then will the glaring structural problems in our economy be addressed ,Iceland being an an example of what is really required.

Gumbo

femur61 wrote: »

According to Stephen Donnelly said there will no debt writedown while many of our civil cervants are vastly overpaid compared to our european counterparts. He said the EU it amamzing we are borrowing money off them to pay our civil servants more money than they earn.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1132102

We have three teachers running the country Kenny, Noonan and Howlin so if the CS/PS wage is targeted their ex colleagues will be in the firing line. He did say senior civil servants but to me all the same. Unions are running (ruining) the country.

Make up your mind, is it PS your bashing here, or Unions??
Or just another bash at both :rolleyes:

How on earth can an intelligent person class senior CS staff earning 100k+ in the same bot as normal staff earning 20, 30 or 40k is beyond me, and reality as it seems :rolleyes:

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Agreed ,the amazing thing is that we appear to be borrowing vast sums of money so that PS workers can save it ,if the stats coming from the banks on savings rates can be believed.

Surely you could be sacked for releasing infomation like that?
In order to have that kind of infomation, you must work in a senior position in a bank, otherwise its just barstool talk.........

do you work in a bank, or did you hear that from a mates cousin who knows a fella that lives in the same estate as a PS employee??

How on earth anybody knows the exact banking transactions of 300,000 public servants :rolleyes:

juan.kerr

Survival of the CPA looking less and less likely. I think the continuation of Increments is the final straw for many in the private sector.

woodoo

juan.kerr wrote: »

Survival of the CPA looking less and less likely. I think the continuation of Increments is the final straw for many in the private sector.

How do you come to that conclusion. The troika and the heavy weights in Government are behind it.

Simon Harris and a ragtag of nobody's (7 or so) are against it. It looks more secure than ever i think.

juan.kerr

woodoo wrote: »

Simon Harris and a ragtag of nobody's (7 or so) are against it. It looks more secure than ever i think.

Wishful thinking I fear.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/troika-targets-top-public-execs-in-savings-plan-2996229.html

The_Thing

juan.kerr wrote: »

Survival of the CPA looking less and less likely.....

Well it would seem to me that this is all the more reason therefore for public-sector workers such as myself to squeeze every last cent out of the system while they still can.

washman3

Thought Donnelly was excellent on The Suturday Night show.
very interesting to hear what he said about meeting the Troika.
we have'nt heard this side before,from either the present or previous governments. actually its mostly what the likes of McWilliams/Mogan Kelly state. i wonder why this is the case
seems to me that the government are quite happy to have the Public and Private sectors at war with each other. looks like it deflects attention away from themselves.

Idbatterim

you know I posted this here before, how badly are we off if we can still afford likes of CPA? Id agree with them not to write off any debt, without actually sorting out the elephants in the room first. In some way requiring a bailout is best thing to happen to this country, the Troika will get things done that would never be otherwise, ie introducing competition is legal & medical professions for a start. Also its time those in the Ps actually stood up to the union leaders and those on insane pay. You are not all in the same boat, your taking pay cuts across the board so those at the top can continue on the gravy train!

coolshannagh28

Since average pay in the Private sector is e600 per week it seems fairly obvious there can't be much saving going on there contrast that with 900 in the PS ?

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

How on earth can an intelligent person class senior CS staff earning 100k+ in the same bot as normal staff earning 20, 30 or 40k is beyond me, and reality as it seems :rolleyes:

I never understand this logic. The salary of a person does not necessarily dicate whether they are overpaid or not. As an example, if a person is earning 100k a year but their equivalent in the private sector is earning 150k it could be said that they are underpaid. However if a person is earning 35k a year doing a job that pays 25k in the private sector then it it could be said that they are overpaid. Unfortuantely both the present and the previous governments abandoned the principles of benchmarking and thus we get the kind of arguments above.

washman3

Idbatterim wrote: »

you know I posted this here before, how badly are we off if we can still afford likes of CPA? Id agree with them not to write off any debt, without actually sorting out the elephants in the room first. In some way requiring a bailout is best thing to happen to this country, the Troika will get things done that would never be otherwise, ie introducing competition is legal & medical professions for a start. Also its time those in the Ps actually stood up to the union leaders and those on insane pay. You are not all in the same boat, your taking pay cuts across the board so those at the top can continue on the gravy train!

good post. as Donnelly stated,its how the Troika see us,they actually see us as being well off. just at the moment it seems the Troika are asking to bring back x-amount in cuts but have'nt specified where. so the government have just opted for the easy targets probably in the hope that by the time a real solution comes around the cronies will still be protected thus avoiding "the pain"
i have read the draft ot the Troika agreement and all that you have mentioned are contained in it,and lots more. but right now they seem to be well down on the Governments list of priorities.

Godge

sarumite wrote: »

I never understand this logic. The salary of a person does not necessarily dicate whether they are overpaid or not. As an example, if a person is earning 100k a year but their equivalent in the private sector is earning 150k it could be said that they are underpaid. However if a person is earning 35k a year doing a job that pays 25k in the private sector then it it could be said that they are overpaid. Unfortuantely both the present and the previous governments abandoned the principles of benchmarking and thus we get the kind of arguments above.

Exactly, and everyone seems to miss this point. There have been pay cuts and pension levys while some parts of the private sector have seen increases. A correction to some degree has occurred already.

This may mean nurses are overpaid but prison officers are underpaid. Clerical Officers overpaid but Executive Officers underpaid. Teachers overpaid but gardai underpaid. Very senior managers overpaid but their immediate juniors underpaid. Nobody knows at this stage.

Dannyboy83

kceire wrote: »

How on earth can an intelligent person class senior CS staff earning 100k+ in the same boat as normal staff earning 20, 30 or 40k is beyond me, and reality as it seems

Em.......isn't this what the Unions do?
Isn't this what the CPA does????

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

Exactly, and everyone seems to miss this point. There have been pay cuts and pension levys while some parts of the private sector have seen increases. A correction to some degree has occurred already.

This may mean nurses are overpaid but prison officers are underpaid. Clerical Officers overpaid but Executive Officers underpaid. Teachers overpaid but gardai underpaid. Very senior managers overpaid but their immediate juniors underpaid. Nobody knows at this stage.

That was the point of benchmarking. Unfortunately at the time it was poorly implemented and since the onset of the recession it has been completely abandoned. Many of those who were once eager for benchmarking now shy away at the merest mention of the word. The principles behind the idea of benchmarking PS pay had merit regardless of the economic situation. It is a shame that such a good idea was so easily discarded.

Gumbo

juan.kerr wrote: »

Wishful thinking I fear.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/troika-targets-top-public-execs-in-savings-plan-2996229.html

In fairness, that will not hit most PS posters on here. Most PS posters on here would be in the 20, 30 and 40k wage brackets i would imagine.

Max Power1

Idbatterim wrote: »

you know I posted this here before, how badly are we off if we can still afford likes of CPA? Id agree with them not to write off any debt, without actually sorting out the elephants in the room first. In some way requiring a bailout is best thing to happen to this country, the Troika will get things done that would never be otherwise, ie introducing competition is legal & medical professions for a start. Also its time those in the Ps actually stood up to the union leaders and those on insane pay. You are not all in the same boat, your taking pay cuts across the board so those at the top can continue on the gravy train!

Thing is, we cant
Hence the loans!

Icepick

There are various reasons why they don't want to reform PS wages and pensions.
For example:

Revealed: the senior ministers in teacher pensions outrage


Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin
Finance Minister Michael Noonan
Social Protection Minister Joan Burton

irishh_bob

Godge wrote: »

Exactly, and everyone seems to miss this point. There have been pay cuts and pension levys while some parts of the private sector have seen increases. A correction to some degree has occurred already.

This may mean nurses are overpaid but prison officers are underpaid. Clerical Officers overpaid but Executive Officers underpaid. Teachers overpaid but gardai underpaid. Very senior managers overpaid but their immediate juniors underpaid. Nobody knows at this stage.

gardai are most certainly not underpaid in this country , quite the opposite

out da lough

According to the news today, the secretary general of the Department Of Health is to retire in April at the age of 56. He will be eligible for a pension of €107,795, a lump sum of €323,385 and a severance gratuity of €107,795.

So he will be paid €430,000 for retiring, and will then receive a pension of €107,795 every year for the rest of his life.

I think that this is too much, given the fact that the country is broke.


Source:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0125/1224310710037.html

jonnyfingers

Firstly it's not my intention to bash the PS, I'd just like to comment on a point made earlier in the thread. The point made about PS workers being overpaid or underpaid compared to the private sector is invalid in my opinion. The wage of the employee should be linked to how healthy the employer is.

When I was working for a private sector company, when things were going well we received good pay, stable working conditions and some nice bonuses. However when the company was in a bit of trouble there were redundancies, pay freezes, short time and even pay cuts for some people. My wages and benefits had no relation to what I might have been earning in the PS at the time.

Currently Ireland the country, as the employer of the PS workers, is not in a healthy state. As a result the wages and benefits need to reflect that. While I hate to see anyone lose money, it has to happen to reduce our debt. It should be the risk of working in the public sector, when the country is doing well you'll do the same, when it's not doing well you can't expect everything to stay the same.

So PS wages and numbers will have, and have had, to be cut. Ridiculously inflated pensions can not be given out anymore. What a person might be earning if they worked in the private sector should have no bearing at all. It might not be fair but that's the way it is unfortunately.

Mr. Presentable

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Since average pay in the Private sector is e600 per week it seems fairly obvious there can't be much saving going on there contrast that with 900 in the PS ?

Where is that 900 figure sourced? I know several PS workers and none are getting any more than the 600 you mention.

Gumbo

out da lough wrote: »

According to the news today, the secretary general of the Department Of Health is to retire in April at the age of 56. He will be eligible for a pension of €107,795, a lump sum of €323,385 and a severance gratuity of €107,795.

So he will be paid €430,000 for retiring, and will then receive a pension of €107,795 every year for the rest of his life.

I think that this is too much, given the fact that the country is broke.


Source:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0125/1224310710037.html

Thats a joke, i wont even get into the figures involved, but the fact he can get it all at 56 is a joke! He should be made wait until retirement at 60/65 depending on contract.

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Where is that 900 figure sourced? I know several PS workers and none are getting any more than the 600 you mention.

+1
It takes me a week to earn what Luke Charleton of accountancy firm Ernst & Young is charging Kildare Credit Union for an hours work :eek:

Source

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

Exactly, and everyone seems to miss this point. There have been pay cuts and pension levys while some parts of the private sector have seen increases. A correction to some degree has occurred already.

This may mean nurses are overpaid but prison officers are underpaid. Clerical Officers overpaid but Executive Officers underpaid. Teachers overpaid but gardai underpaid. Very senior managers overpaid but their immediate juniors underpaid. Nobody knows at this stage.

Godge we have been down this road...

How many people in the private have seen 100% vs Public sector?
How many people in the private sector have seen a pay and hours cut vs the Public
Annual increments mean that there also pay rises going on in the public sector
How much of a cut in the last couple of years ???

I aggree with the sentiment if we can afford these generous wages why would these guys agree a cut in our borrowings...

coolshannagh28

Sunday independent prints these numbers every week

Mr. Presentable

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Sunday independent prints these numbers every week

But what are they based on?

ardmacha

How many people in the private sector have seen a pay and hours cut vs the Public

fliball123, perhaps you could state categorically that you accept that a smaller proportion of the private sector have had wage cuts than the public sector.

jonnyfingers

ardmacha wrote: »

fliball123, perhaps you could state categorically that you accept that a smaller proportion of the private sector have had wage cuts than the public sector.

Obviously I'm not fliball123, but I'm wondering what point you're trying to make here?

I presume it's that more public sector workers have had wage cuts compared to those in the private sector. If that is you're point I'm not sure how that matters?

Simply put the country is heavily in debt. PS workers are employees of the country. If the country can't afford to pay them why should they not take pay cuts?

As for the public sector worker his employer could be doing great and can afford to pay him. Or as in many cases the public sector company has not been doing well and jobs have been lost as a result.

I really hate the comparison of public and private sectors when it comes to pay and conditions. The only thing they have in common is that you work for an employer in both cases, the employer for the Public sector just happens to be Ireland.

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

fliball123, perhaps you could state categorically that you accept that a smaller proportion of the private sector have had wage cuts than the public sector.

percentage wise yes numbers wise no

irishh_bob

fliball123 wrote: »

percentage wise yes numbers wise no

seeing as all public sector workers are employed by a single entity , that fact is obvious , its a moot point

fliball123

irishh_bob wrote: »

seeing as all public sector workers are employed by a single entity , that fact is obvious , its a moot point

Its not moot ...in fact your post makes a valid point..the private sector looks after itself if its profitable they survive no paycuts and if they make a decent profit they will pay workers who they deem necessery to thier opperation pay in both pay rises and bonuses...You can bet your bottom dollar that a private sector co will not pay an increment to an employee regardless of how sh1t hot they are if they are borrowing to keep the lights on ... Same goes with our trioka masters they have to be laughing at us seeing this goon of an exec who retiring from the health service (what a bang up job he did) with nearly 500k of a lump sum and then over 100k in pension a year and then we are asking for a writedown on our debt....They must be p1ssing themselves laughing at us in Germany

MysticalRain

A lot of private sector cuts are not counted in the official stats eg daily market rates for contractors being reduced because of less demand etc.

irishh_bob

fliball123 wrote: »

Its not moot ...in fact your post makes a valid point..the private sector looks after itself if its profitable they survive no paycuts and if they make a decent profit they will pay workers who they deem necessery to thier opperation pay in both pay rises and bonuses...You can bet your bottom dollar that a private sector co will not pay an increment to an employee regardless of how sh1t hot they are if they are borrowing to keep the lights on ... Same goes with our trioka masters they have to be laughing at us seeing this goon of an exec who retiring from the health service (what a bang up job he did) with nearly 500k of a lump sum and then over 100k in pension a year and then we are asking for a writedown on our debt....They must be p1ssing themselves laughing at us in Germany

sorry fliball , i quoted your post by mistake , in that context you can see that i agree entirely with you

by virtue of the fact that all public sector workers have the one employer , its obvious that a higher percentage of public sector workers than private sector workers would have had a pay cut , its a red herring

CamperMan

€20 billion a year for PS pay!...

how the feck does Ireland think it's going to keep paying this on top of welfare, pensions, and all the other things like hospitals, schools, roads, etc. etc.?

woodoo

CamperMan wrote: »

€20 billion a year for PS pay!...

how the feck does Ireland think it's going to keep paying this on top of welfare, pensions, and all the other things like hospitals, schools, roads, etc. etc.?

I have some good news for you PS pay is 15 billion. You'll sleep a abit easier tonight.

Chucky the tree

Who cares if the private sector have or haven't been cut? Taxes aren't paying their wages. If a private sector company wants to pay their staff for terrible performances then it doesn't bother me. However when my tax's pay for the overpaid and underperforming public sector then it does bother me.

CamperMan

woodoo wrote: »

I have some good news for you PS pay is 15 billion. You'll sleep a abit easier tonight.

still.. that's an awful lot of billions to pay out each year

Gumbo

CamperMan wrote: »

still.. that's an awful lot of billions to pay out each year

Welfare is 21bn IIRC

Tipp Man

woodoo wrote: »

I have some good news for you PS pay is 15 billion. You'll sleep a abit easier tonight.

Not including the PS pensions I assume???

coolshannagh28

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Sunday independent prints these numbers every week

But what are they based on?

Fact I presume I have never seen them print any retractions .

Drumpot

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Who cares if the private sector have or haven't been cut? Taxes aren't paying their wages. If a private sector company wants to pay their staff for terrible performances then it doesn't bother me. However when my tax's pay for the overpaid and underperforming public sector then it does bother me.

A fact usually ignored in this debate for obvious reasons . . . .

Still wondering what exactly public service bashing is other then a rhetoric throwout remark to stifle objective debate . .

Cuts in social welfare = A bitter pill but required budgeting under current deficit while we are not in control of our finances

Cutbacks in special needs or areas that dont have huge vested lobby groups = A bitter pill but required budgeting under current deficit while we are not in control of our finances

Water tax, household tax, possibly oxygen tax = A bitter pill but required budgeting under current deficit while we are not in control of our finances

Cutbacks in public service = Public service bashing

Am I getting this right ? Cutbacks in everything other then public services costs are required budgeting measures being taken to fill a ridiculous hole in our public finances. But when the debate turns to the cost of the public service (that accounts for a significant portion of our annual overheads), this expense to the state is defined as a "bashing" excercise, as opposed to being an accounting excercise?! :rolleyes:

Can a boardsie union rep somebody please explain where this phrase bashing came from and why it has a place in a discussion about the cost to run the state and the current deficit that needs to be plugged ? Is "bashing" an accountancy phrase that I am not aware of ?

Dannyboy83

Drumpot wrote: »

Am I getting this right ?

Cutbacks in everything other then public services costs are required budgeting measures being taken to fill a ridiculous hole in our public finances. But when the debate turns to the cost of the public service (that accounts for a significant portion of our annual overheads), this expense to the state is defined as a "bashing" excercise, as opposed to being an accounting excercise?!

You've almost got it, but not quite: It's only off limits if you're not a public servant yourself.

Other public servants are allowed to comment on inefficiencies in other areas of the public service - this is not public sector bashing.

If you were unemployed, disabled or in the private sector tho - and you made the same argument - that would be public sector bashing!;)

ardmacha

If you were unemployed, disabled or in the private sector tho - and you made the same argument - that would be public sector bashing

If you have managed a coherent argument then that is fair enough, that is the purpose of a discussion forum.

PS bashing is when people make sweeping generalisations without any attempt at an argument or they put forward falsehoods such as that the pension levy isn't a cut or everyone in the PS is overpaid and they repeat these things regardless of points made by other posters.

Jaysoose

ardmacha wrote: »

If you have managed a coherent argument then that is fair enough, that is the purpose of a discussion forum.

PS bashing is when people make sweeping generalisations without any attempt at an argument or they put forward falsehoods such as that the pension levy isn't a cut or everyone in the PS is overpaid and they repeat these things regardless of points made by other posters.

The pension levy isn't a cut and the public service is overpaid.

quietriot

It appears that the Government and the EU are setting up the PS/CS for a mighty kick in the testes in the next 12 months. They've done some good work thus far and shown they can take the tough action necessary so hopefully they can take a good swing and follow through and this time next year we'll be cheering them for the measures they've taken with regards to slashing the public pay burden.

davoxx

ardmacha wrote: »

PS bashing is when people make sweeping generalisations without any attempt at an argument or they put forward falsehoods such as that the pension levy isn't a cut or everyone in the PS is overpaid and they repeat these things regardless of points made by other posters.

i'd have to say that everyone in the PS is overpaid, they have job security. that means that they should be paid less than the private sector, not the same.

more risk = potential for more gain <=> less risk = less gain

i think that is a very valid generalisation ...

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

If you have managed a coherent argument then that is fair enough, that is the purpose of a discussion forum.

PS bashing is when people make sweeping generalisations without any attempt at an argument or they put forward falsehoods such as that the pension levy isn't a cut or everyone in the PS is overpaid and they repeat these things regardless of points made by other posters.

Ad hominem's are lazy. If a person believe's that a pension levy is a contribution and not a cut, disagree with them and logically explain why they are wrong. The constant "PS basher" and "begrudgery" memes gets very tiresome.

Gumbo

sarumite wrote: »

Ad hominem's are lazy. If a person believe's that a pension levy is a contribution and not a cut, disagree with them and logically explain why they are wrong. The constant "PS basher" and "begrudgery" memes gets very tiresome.

just as tiresome as the constant lies posted, and constant "my mate told me" stories, and unfactual comments that if the poster done 2 mins of research would cop on that their post was incorrect.

The constant PS bashing and begrudgery on here gets very tiresome, i agree.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

just as tiresome as the constant lies posted, and constant "my mate told me" stories, and unfactual comments that if the poster done 2 mins of research would cop on that their post was incorrect.

Absolutely. Both sides of the argument have produced some pretty bad (and good) arguments.

The constant PS bashing and begrudgery on here gets very tiresome, i agree.

If you equate someone saying a pension levy is a pension contribution to some sort of attack, perhaps an internet discussion forum is not for you. Personally I think some of the victomhood on boards.ie is more a case of cognitive dissonance.....though that is just my perception.

[Jackass]

I for one would love to see someone commit political suicide and cull the public sector.

Outrageously over paid, comically so, with unrealistic job security, massively inflated pensions, virtually no tiering on importance, hardly any incentive for productivity, and they are one of the biggest black holes that is sucking the life out of this country.

There should be a massive wage adjustment to bring in line with the private sector, wage scale revised to initially work off inflation and limited purse to reward the productive, and about 33% redundencies.

A complete overhaul of the system is required.

Sadly, it will never happen, but we did have the oppertunity, which fell to Cowen, and if he wasn't a coward, he should have admitted the sh*t storm we were in, and allowed the IMF come in and fix the country. It wouldn't have been pretty, but we would have finally been streamlined, maybe even efficient, and removed the glorified social welfare programme that is the Irish public sector.

For any sitting Government to do it though would be seen as Economic Genoside on a scale that Thatcher would be proud of.