PPL - 5 Hours Instrument Flying

jasonb

Hi there,

I'm doing my PPL, and I've heard from several sources, including my Flying School, that part of the course is you must do 5 hours of Instrument Flying.

However, I've checked on the IAA website ( http://www.iaa.ie/files/2010/docs/srd/licensing/20100312063216_JAR%20PPL(A)%20Guidance.pdf ) and there's no mention of it. I clicked on the link for the 'JAA - Detailed Licensing Requirements' in the first few lines of the IAA document, and that brought me to a different, very complicated document ( http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf ) which in the end also doesn't mention 5 hours of Instrument Flying at all.

So, do you have to do these 5 hours? And where does it say you must do it?

Thanks!

J.

CharlieOscar

Hi JasonB,

I am doing my PPL too. It always annoys me why people are so dismissive about learning new skills. If you are learning basic instrument flying, then consider that you have a new skill, so if you are ever in a situation where you find yourself flying solely on instruments, you will have the basic training, rather than guessing.

Enjoy learning the basics, cause when you go to do your Night Rating, its all instruments more or less.

Cessna_Pilot

I don't understand why someone would start working towards a Pilot Licence without knowing what the requirements were. Surely OP you should have researched everything before starting?
If you cannot understand the importance of basic instrument flight skills maybe you should give up now before you become a statistic. These skills have saved me a few times when I was a GA pilot. Inadvertant entry into cloud being one when as a passenger flying with an "experienced" pilot in Weston flew us straight into cloud and lost control within 10 seconds, meaning I had to take over, exiting the cloud safely.

jasonb

Two very helpful comments, thanks!

Of course I researched it. That's my point. Nowhere in my research before I started, and nowhere now, can I find an official document saying that you must do 5 hours of Instrument Flying, yet several Flying Schools say that it's a requirement.

I've no problem learning new skills, it's something I enjoy. And getting basic training in Instrument Flying sounds like an excellent idea to me. I've no plans to do a night rating though. Either way, all I'm asking is for someone to point me towards the official document that says you have to do 5 hours of Instrument Flying.

Thanks...

J.

jasonb

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I'd posted in the 'Please Judge Me' thread. I thought it was a simple enough question. But clearly things have changed in the Aviation section ( as the thread about the guy asking about renting a Helicopter for his wedding showed recently ).

Forget I asked...

J.

bkehoe

jasonb wrote: »

Hi there,

I'm doing my PPL, and I've heard from several sources, including my Flying School, that part of the course is you must do 5 hours of Instrument Flying.

However, I've checked on the IAA website ( http://www.iaa.ie/files/2010/docs/srd/licensing/20100312063216_JAR%20PPL(A)%20Guidance.pdf ) and there's no mention of it. I clicked on the link for the 'JAA - Detailed Licensing Requirements' in the first few lines of the IAA document, and that brought me to a different, very complicated document ( http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf ) which in the end also doesn't mention 5 hours of Instrument Flying at all.

So, do you have to do these 5 hours? And where does it say you must do it?

Thanks!

J.

I think you're getting a bit confused here. Under JAA rules you can count up to 5 hours time in an basic instrument flight simulator, FNPT or full flight simulator towards the 45 hrs minimum that's required for the issue of a PPL. As others have said though, not doing any instrument flight, simulated or in reality is only inviting disaster especially with our weather conditions so do as much as you can.

phonypony

jasonb

I had a similar query when i was doing my PPL. I *think* the instrument hours requirement was an IAA pre-JAA thing and is no longer required, but some schools choose to do it. The general requirement on my skills test was to do a 180 turn on instruments, to get out of cloud and maybe climb/descend on instruments.

xflyer

You're right there is no official requirement do 5 hours of Instrument flying. Indeed it would seem excessive considering a CPL only needs 10, 5 of which can be in sim. Maybe it's a school thing? Or have you misunderstood as bkehoe says. Do they have a FNPT? I would query it with your Instructor.


There's a reason for instrument flying in the PPL syllabus. Mostly to give you experience to make a 180 degree turn should you enter cloud inadverdantly. But part of it should also be to scare you out ever intentionally entering IMC. A good Instructor will demonstrate how easy it is to lose control in cloud.

You don't need five hours to learn that lesson. Indeed too much instrument flying is wasted on a PPL. But if you're going on to the CPL/IR it's all good experience.

jasonb

Thanks for that info.

Nope, I wasn't getting confused, I saw that you can do up to 5 hours using a Flight Sim. or something like that. However, my school say you have to do 5 hours instrument only flying. A few other schools say it too ( here http://www.atlanticair.ie/private-pilot-license.aspx and here http://www.usherair.ie/flight-academy-ireland/ppl-private-pilots-license/ for example ).

It looks like it used to be a requirement, but not anymore. I fully understand the need to be able to fly instrument only to get you out of clouds etc., and I know that you're tested on it ( e.g. being able to turn 180 degrees, climb or descend etc. ).

However, I agree with Xflyer, and I don't think 5 hours is needed to learn that skill. Sure, it might be, if you're not getting it, but if you pick it up perfectly in 2 hours, I don't see why you should fly another 3 hours just to meet a 'requirement' that doesn't actually seem to be a requirement anymore!

Anyhow, I'm gonna contact the IAA to confirm that it isn't actually a requirement to do 5 hours and then discuss it with my flying school.

J.

Irish Steve

Ok, blunt opinion, and if you don't like it, tough.

If you want to fly in Ireland, and don't want to be capable of the absolute minimum in terms of instrument flying, I'd be happier if you didn't finish the course, at least that way there's a good chance you will remain safe.

If you want to know why a basic appreciation of Instrument flying is ESSENTIAL for even a PPL, go and read the report of the Air Corps PC9 crash in Galway, and then reflect on the fact that the instructor was one of the most experienced PC9 pilots in the country, and had a full instrument flying rating, which needs a LOT more than 5 hours instrument flying to get and maintain.

The instructors and operators of the aircraft that you rent for your flying also have a responsibility to make sure that when you rent it, you are going to be as safe as possible. If that means they have certain requirements over and above the absolute legally mandated minimum for a licence, they are imposing that requirement for a very good reason, they're not looking to fleece students, even getting students is hard enough these days, they are trying to make sure that you make as many landings as you make takeoff's. That's not an issue for anyone that's been around the industry for any length of time.

Tenger

jasonb wrote: »

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I'd posted in the 'Please Judge Me' thread. I thought it was a simple enough question......

I think the issue here is that in your initial post you gave the impression that you resent having to do the 5 hours instrument rating. No need to take offence.

yaeger

Hey Jasonb

It was a simple question and its sorry to see people decide to reply or judge in the manner they do.. Just ring the IAA as all I gather is you wish to source the document reference relating to this, A very admirable trait not seen in many student pilots. Good luck with the course and no doubt you need to be reminded clouds and mountains are bad. Will you be going commercial or flying for fun?

Rgds Yaeger

Xpro

Refer to Irish Aviation Air Law for Pilots, thats where the 5 hours instrument comes in, i cant remember exactly what it says, but there is mention about it, and i think thats why the schools are going by it. cheers

basill

I don't understand why someone would start working towards a Pilot Licence without knowing what the requirements were. Surely OP you should have researched everything before starting?

You would be amazed the number of people that come out with a professional licence and only then work out that the path they took will never get them to the RHS of an aircraft.

jasonb

Just flying for fun Yaeger.

Got an email from the IAA today confirming that there is no requirement for a minimum of 5 Instrument hours to get your PPL(A).

J.

Su Campu

I think that's a bad thing if it's been dropped from the training. IMO it's ESSENTIAL that a student gets to witness the effects of flying in IMC (even though the actual 5 hours will be done in VMC and you'll just be wearing frosted goggles), but to witness the effects of spatial disorientation is something I will never forget and am glad I was made do it. Any student who is made witness it will for sure never willingly go into clouds, whereas a student who doesn't witness it may at some time as a PPL wonder what it's like to fly in cloud and in all probability will end up as a crater in the ground.

Manic Moran

xflyer wrote: »

You're right there is no official requirement do 5 hours of Instrument flying. Indeed it would seem excessive considering a CPL only needs 10, 5 of which can be in sim.

In the US, it's a 3 hour requirement for the PPL. A bit of time 'under the hood' is also a part of the practical examination. Seems to be a good idea to me, no idea why it would be removed from the mandate, especially in a cloudy country like Ireland.

NTM

lomb

Su Campu wrote: »

I think that's a bad thing if it's been dropped from the training. IMO it's ESSENTIAL that a student gets to witness the effects of flying in IMC (even though the actual 5 hours will be done in VMC and you'll just be wearing frosted goggles), but to witness the effects of spatial disorientation is something I will never forget and am glad I was made do it. Any student who is made witness it will for sure never willingly go into clouds, whereas a student who doesn't witness it may at some time as a PPL wonder what it's like to fly in cloud and in all probability will end up as a crater in the ground.

I think the key is never trust the window view ,or sensory view over the instruments, make shallow turns, etc etc watching the instruments respond as you would expect them to and correct things before they get out of control. You can write it on the back of a postage stamp and practice it on a flight sim at home in a few hours.

Like alot of things in aviation things are made overly complex and when the **** hits the fan like what happened in the crash recently people make silly mistakes and dont know what to do even experienced pilots. Aviation needs to be simplified into a few simple principles and people will be safer for it.

Stovepipe

With respect to all posters, if it's not a legal requirement for the issue of a PPL-A, then the schools have no business imposing it, regardless of whether they regard it as a good idea or not.A budding PPL might find himself paying extra for these lessons (oh, you'll need an Instrument-rated instructor, which costs extra) and Irish schools are not shy when it comes to squeezing the euros out of students and they often regard standards of customer care/rights that are considered routine in grocer's shops as some kind of laughable new invention. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of instrument tuition (which I totally appreciate, as a former IR holder), the OP is right to challenge it.

regards
Stovepipe

FWVT

I don't think he was even challenging it at all. Seems a genuine question but unfortunately the first people to reply to questions on this forum lately seem to be complete ........s. I do agree it is a good idea to do it, and nobody should be flying solo without having witnessed spatial disorientation, but the way many FTOs list it as a requirement gives the impression that it is an official one.

CharlieOscar

FWVT wrote: »

I don't think he was even challenging it at all. Seems a genuine question but unfortunately the first people to reply to questions on this forum lately seem to be complete ........s. I do agree it is a good idea to do it, and nobody should be flying solo without having witnessed spatial disorientation, but the way many FTOs list it as a requirement gives the impression that it is an official one.

As I was the first to reply, I hope you were not making reference to me.
The forum is here to express opinions, not to be critical and rude of other's views.

Does it not make logical sense for a PPL student to have "basic instrument flying" should the situation ever arise that the PPL may have to rely on it? IMO, safety is paramount and skills to deal with situations are key (whether they will ever by used or not)

LeftBase

Although PPLs and even pro pilots on a weekend jolly live in this idealistic VFR world where we all avoid clouds and stick to our cloud separation minima....it rarely happens. A lot of guys will just decide to punch through a wisp or 2 of cloud rather than climb/descend or go around it. It's very easy to say "oh it's only a little cloud, I'll bust through that no bother" and then realise that it is a lot bigger and thicker than you though it was!
Not too long ago I found myself in a cloud that I couldn't get out of out over Loch Owel direction. I have a MEIR so I was not really that bothered by it and just picked a direction and steamed that way until I cleared it, but it showed me how part time pilots could be badly caught out and panicked by such an event.

I think it is vital that anybody flying an aircraft with VOR/ADF knows how to use it and as I state above, knowing what to do when in a cloud is also important. Does that take 5 hours? I dont know....does it take 40 hours to learn to fly a light aircraft if you have the aptitude?....probably not...but thats the number put out there.

*As a little footnote to this I just remembered that some flight schools and flying clubs in Ireland will not allow you to rent from them unless you have done the 5 hours instrument time. NFC and AFT will have this in the training record of their student. I remember looking at my file when I was hour building and seeing "Instrument - Yes" on it even though I had not done my IR.
So you may not need it my law....but it's practical.

hibby

lomb wrote: »

I think the key is never trust the window view ,or sensory view over the instruments, make shallow turns, etc etc

Yes, it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably in a chair. But before any of that, the key is not to panic, and that's not as easy as it sounds when you are flying along and suddenly someone throws a dirty grey blanket over the windscreen and you can't see a damn thing, and your life now depends on being able to switch over to "trust the instruments, not my sensory input" mode. Can you replicate that experience - that feeling - in Flight Simulator?

Irish Steve

Having done a significant number of hours in both flight simulators and real aircraft in IFR, the problem with flight simulator is that there are NO sensory inputs, and in real flying, the danger is that the instruments say one thing, and the human sensors say something contradictory, and ignoring the human sensors in favour of the instruments takes a very specific and determined effort. Doing that when one or more of the instruments may be lying is even more difficult, and calls for a very disciplined scan and analysis of what the aircraft is actually doing.

Any VFR pilot intending to fly on a regular basis will at some stage end up needing to make decisions about continuing or diverting due to weather. In some circumstances becoming "temporarily uncertain of position" due to ending up in IMC is an experience that will not be enjoyable, and it may possibly also be dangerous. On that basis, requiring some degree of competence in being able to perform basic flying on instruments should not be an optional extra, for a long time it wasn't and there were and still are good reasons for that requirement. I know that if I'd not been able to fly on instruments, I'd not be here to talk about it now, and that was with an instructor on board as well, but I'm not going to dwell on that subject, even now, it stirs uncomfortable memories.

Don't look on instrument flying as a chore that isn't mandated as part of the licence, but may be required by some renters, look on it as a very distinct insurance policy that may mean the difference between being able to be scared of what happened, or not. It really is that simple.