Retrofitting Middle Doors

Mr Simpson

I would just wondering, In peoples opinion, how hard and costly would it be to retrofit middle doors on Dublin buses, particularly the newer ones.

It's come up in a few threads that middle doors would be beneficial to Dublin bus operations.

If we had them, combined with announcements, asking passengers to used middle door to exit only, surely this would speed up dwelling times at stops.

Hotblack Desiato

Dublin Bus used to have a fleet entirely equipped with centre doors, they just refused to open them, in spite of the signs instructing passengers to 'EXIT BY CENTRE DOOR' :rolleyes: do you expect customer service to figure on their agenda?

Mr Simpson

ninja900 wrote: »

Dublin Bus used to have a fleet entirely equipped with centre doors, they just refused to open them, in spite of the signs instructing passengers to 'EXIT BY CENTRE DOOR' :rolleyes: do you expect customer service to figure on their agenda?

I'm not sure whether my previous post was just naeivity on my part, but having heard that all new Dublin buses were to be double doored, I thought they may be using some common sense, only time will tell I suppose

Cookie_Monster

I would imagine the H&S and disability groups would insist that retro fitted doors would also have to have ramps, making it even more expensive to do, rather than "simply" taking out the panels between two support beams and fitting a pre made door section (presumably if retrofitting 600+ buses there would have to be something like this done to keep it simple)

the groutch

I can't see the return of middle doors any time soon.
If the Luas is anything to go by, skangers will just use them for get on without paying.

Cookie_Monster

mmcn90 wrote: »

I'm not sure whether my previous post was just naeivity on my part, but having heard that all new Dublin buses were to be double doored

the groutch wrote: »

I can't see the return of middle doors any time soon..

sooner than you think, the above is accurate

Losty Dublin

ninja900 wrote: »

Dublin Bus used to have a fleet entirely equipped with centre doors, they just refused to open them, in spite of the signs instructing passengers to 'EXIT BY CENTRE DOOR' :rolleyes: do you expect customer service to figure on their agenda?

Here we go again with the middle door debate. The prime reason they never got used was because the pavements and stops where not provided to let people get on and off buses safely with them; our bus driving friends will confrim this when they get a minute to do so.

Conway635

Here's a little historical context.

From 1969 to 1999, all new vehicles for Dublin were dual-doored (excluding mini/midibuses).

When CIE switched to the modern, rear-engined front doored bus design in 1966, the first 218 were delivered single-door, and then a policy decision was made to opt for dual-door on all further deliveries (D219 upwards, eventually reaching D840 at the end of the 70s). These were followed by 366 KD-class Bombardiers, all dual-door, which replaced the last of the open-platform halfcabs in 1981/2, all the single-door Ds, and the earliest dual-door buses.

By the end of 1983 the entire double-deck fleet was dual-door.

Drivers resolutely refused to use the centre doors during all of this time, despite many, many failed attempts by the company to enforce their use.

By the mid 80s the first dual-door buses were reaching the end of their life and going to the scrapyard, never having had their middle doors used on anything more than an ad-hoc, occasional basis.

By the end of the 1990s, two whole generations of dual-door buses had come and gone (new RVs were replacing Bombardiers which had replaced D200s which had been dual door). Still the doors were never used other than occasionally.

With the lowfloor design, the issue of seating on the lower deck was problematic on dual-door vehicles, and Dublin Bus, deciding there was no point in sacrificing seating capacity for doors that were rarely used, made the switch to single-door.

As the number of the Olympians (the last 60 or so of which are still on the road today) dwindled, yet another generation of dual door buses were going out of service, never having been used properly.

Do reintroduce dual door by all means.

But let's once and for all, mandate their use.

We don't want to see another generation of new buses coming along, middle door resolutely closed.

Doutbless Alek Smart will have words to say about faulty interlocks and problems with reliability (interlock prevents bus driving off if door is not fully closed).

Well, the Atlanteans had no such interlocks, and the doors were never used.

And London seems able to manage this technological masterpiece, so why can't we?

C635

bk

Conway635 wrote: »

And London seems able to manage this technological masterpiece, so why can't we?

Many European countries manage to operate 3 doors, including advanced nations like Poland, imagine that!!

Embarrassing really.

Bazzer2

Because this city is full of freeloaders and scumbags who will simply use an open centre-door to get on without paying. It's enough for a driver to keep an eye on everything through the front door, without somebody having an 'accident' at the centre door and then suing Dublin Bus because the driver was negligent.

If you want centre doors, re-employ conductors.

markpb

Bazzer2 wrote: »

Because this city is full of freeloaders and scumbags who will simply use an open centre-door to get on without paying. It's enough for a driver to keep an eye on everything through the front door, without somebody having an 'accident' at the centre door and then suing Dublin Bus because the driver was negligent. If you want centre doors, re-employ conductors.

You think there are no freeloaders anywhere else? How do other cities get by with second and third doors and no conductors?

Mr Simpson

Bazzer2 wrote: »

Because this city is full of freeloaders and scumbags who will simply use an open centre-door to get on without paying. It's enough for a driver to keep an eye on everything through the front door, without somebody having an 'accident' at the centre door and then suing Dublin Bus because the driver was negligent.

If you want centre doors, re-employ conductors.

Many european cities use two or even three door buses without the need to employ extra staff members (although I know london are looking at using an extra staff member on their new routemasters), why should dublin need a conductor for two door buses?

Bazzer2

mmcn90 wrote: »

why should dublin need a conductor for two door buses?

Why does Luas use security personnel on multi-door trams?

This is Dublin, not anywhere else. If you saw a scumbag evading fare on a bus, would you say him "They don't do that in Berlin"? You wouldn't last long.

Bazzer2

markpb wrote: »

You think there are no freeloaders anywhere else? How do other cities get by with second and third doors and no conductors?

So, how do they get by?

markpb

Bazzer2 wrote: »

Why does Luas use security personnel on multi-door trams? This is Dublin, not anywhere else.

They use security guys to stop anti-social behaviour, not check tickets and they have nothing to do with having multiple doors. Dublin Bus and Luas use ticket checkers.

And yes, it's Dublin but you seem to think that we have problems that no-one else does. God we're special

Bazzer2 wrote: »

So, how do they get by?

I suspect they don't care very much. A certain amount of fare evasion (no tickets, invalid tickets, etc) is tolerable if it means the system works efficiently. Squeezing every incoming and outgoing passenger through the same door costs money.

LXFlyer

Conway635 wrote: »

Here's a little historical context.

From 1969 to 1999, all new vehicles for Dublin were dual-doored (excluding mini/midibuses).

When CIE switched to the modern, rear-engined front doored bus design in 1966, the first 218 were delivered single-door, and then a policy decision was made to opt for dual-door on all further deliveries (D219 upwards, eventually reaching D840 at the end of the 70s). These were followed by 366 KD-class Bombardiers, all dual-door, which replaced the last of the open-platform halfcabs in 1981/2, all the single-door Ds, and the earliest dual-door buses.

By the end of 1983 the entire double-deck fleet was dual-door.

Drivers resolutely refused to use the centre doors during all of this time, despite many, many failed attempts by the company to enforce their use.

By the mid 80s the first dual-door buses were reaching the end of their life and going to the scrapyard, never having had their middle doors used on anything more than an ad-hoc, occasional basis.

By the end of the 1990s, two whole generations of dual-door buses had come and gone (new RVs were replacing Bombardiers which had replaced D200s which had been dual door). Still the doors were never used other than occasionally.

With the lowfloor design, the issue of seating on the lower deck was problematic on dual-door vehicles, and Dublin Bus, deciding there was no point in sacrificing seating capacity for doors that were rarely used, made the switch to single-door.

As the number of the Olympians (the last 60 or so of which are still on the road today) dwindled, yet another generation of dual door buses were going out of service, never having been used properly.

Do reintroduce dual door by all means.

But let's once and for all, mandate their use.

We don't want to see another generation of new buses coming along, middle door resolutely closed.

Doutbless Alek Smart will have words to say about faulty interlocks and problems with reliability (interlock prevents bus driving off if door is not fully closed).

Well, the Atlanteans had no such interlocks, and the doors were never used.

And London seems able to manage this technological masterpiece, so why can't we?

C635

And at the same time implement fully TfL standards on bus stop design as outlined here and here so that there can be no arguments.

This includes removing all directly adjacent taxi ranks!!!

Run_to_da_hills

I'm surprised that DB are allowed have just single exits particularly on Double deck buses under EU health & Safety law, particularly for prompt evacuation. Try getting someone wheelchair bound out of a bus that has its front door access disabled in a smash.

markpb

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I'm surprised that DB are allowed have just single exits particularly on Double deck buses under EU health & Safety laws, particularly for prompt evacuation.

Emergency exit windows are for evacuation. Doors are to keep the service running at something akin to decent speed.

Run_to_da_hills

markpb wrote: »

Emergency exit windows are for evacuation. Doors are to keep the service running at something akin to decent speed.

Try getting someone who is seriously wheelchair bound out a window in a hurry.

Conway635

Bazzer2 wrote: »

If you want centre doors, re-employ conductors.

But from 1969 to the end of the 80s we had conductors on dual door buses, and *still* couldn't use the centre door.

C635

devnull

Bazzer2 wrote: »

Why does Luas use security personnel on multi-door trams?

You're comparing the Luas putting security on a couple of trams that roam from one tram to another, with putting a conductor on every bus.

That's a fair comparison isn't it.

Solair

It's quite simple, CIE like to reinvent the wheel all the time and do things in the most awkward and non-standard way possible.

When you consider how long it has taken for smart-card based ticketing to roll out, how they resolutely refuse to even investigate electronic ticketing for Cork, Limerick City services, how they operate all sorts of weird and wonderful policies like not integrating inner and outer suburban busses in Cork etc etc.

The list is just endless.

Dublin, Cork or any other Irish city does not have any more likelihood of fare evasion than any other city in Western Europe. If anything, I would suspect that the level of compliance with fares might even be higher than some places.

Apparently the levels of evasion on the Luas are quite low by European standards from what I've read anyway.

No other European bus operator that I have ever come across uses the same doors for entry and exit. Most of them insist that you enter via the front door and always exit via the middle or rear doors. They do this to speed up dwell times at bus stops.

Some operators just have a Luas-style system where by you can enter via all doors and exit via all doors, except usually the front door.

You just simply make the payment system easy, have card readers throughout the bus and have heavy penalties for anyone who doesn't pay.

It's not rocket science and it's certainly nothing new or amazingly unusual. I mean, the Luas seems to work fine without all this endless and very time-consuming controlling of tickets.

Also, CIE Rail services are equally fixated on checking and rechecking tickets. If you board a Cork-Dublin train you're forced to go through barriers with an automatic ticket checker, or else queue and have your ticket inspected. You're then checked on-board too, and sometimes at the exit.

Quite honestly, I think CIE's approach to ticket checking is bordering on OCD!

Operators need to ensure that fare evasion is not a serious issue for them, but they also need to ensure that their services run smoothly and efficiently and that ticket checking does not cause major disruption. Unfortunately, CIE's approach does cause major disruption. Busses take much longer to load and unload than elsewhere in Europe.

Also, outside of Dublin urban busses have no card systems so there is enormous dwell time as people pay by cash and get change.

It's things like this that really make you wonder why CIE is not just privatised.

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I would imagine the H&S and disability groups would insist that retro fitted doors would also have to have ramps

The wheelchair space has a separate stop bell / alarm, so one ramp is enough. On some models, it may be necessary to move the wheelchair space from the left to right side of the bus.

Conway635 wrote: »

When CIE switched to the modern, rear-engined front doored bus design in 1966, the first 218 were delivered single-door, and then a policy decision was made to opt for dual-door on all further deliveries (D219 upwards, eventually reaching D840 at the end of the 70s).

Were these were the 'orange' buses with the navy-blue seating?

By the end of 1983 the entire double-deck fleet was dual-door.

But wasn't there many other model in use until the late 1990s, including the ones that had the stairs going the wrong way?

Drivers resolutely refused to use the centre doors during all of this time, despite many, many failed attempts by the company to enforce their use.

A few drivers not doing their job is a driver problem. All the drivers not doing their job is a management problem.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

The wheelchair space has a separate stop bell / alarm, so one ramp is enough..

of course it is, but do you think that'll stop them campaigning anyway?

n97 mini

Victor wrote: »

But wasn't there many other model in use until the late 1990s, including the ones that had the stairs going the wrong way?

What's the 'wrong way'? Down instead of up?

n97 mini

Victor wrote: »

A few drivers not doing their job is a driver problem. All the drivers not doing their job is a management problem.

Exactly. Why wasn't it tackled? Fear of union backlash?

Conway635

Victor wrote: »

Were these were the 'orange' buses with the navy-blue seating?

But wasn't there many other model in use until the late 1990s, including the ones that had the stairs going the wrong way?

The D-class (Leyland Atlanteans) introduced from 1966 were first in blue & cream, and then repainted into orange from 1975 onwards, and finally into green in the 80s.

D1-218 were single-door.
D219-602 were dual-door, same body style.
D603-840 had different, more square bodies by VanHool, and entered service in orange livery.

The non-Vanhool ones (1-602) had the stairs in the opposite direction to more modern buses, such that you were facing forwards as you came down the stairs. This was better in terms of internal space utilisation (on the single-door ones it meant that the stairs came out really close to the door) but had a major drawback in safety terms, in that if the driver braked as you were coming down the stairs, you could be thrown forwards and have quite a fall.

The last of the single-door buses in the 1-218 batch was gone by mid 83, but the later dual door ones lingered many years, to the mid 1990s (earlier body) and 1996 (VanHool body). There was also the Bombardier "KD" double-deckers, all dual door, which were the first green buses in 1981 (the older buses were later painted from orange into green).

So between all of the above, this makes up the "many types" you remember.

C635

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

Were these were the 'orange' buses with the navy-blue seating?

They were actually delivered in blue and cream livery Victor - you're showing your youthfulness now!

Victor wrote: »

But wasn't there many other model in use until the late 1990s, including the ones that had the stairs going the wrong way?

Yes - you went up the stairs facing the rear of the bus - they were in the reverse direction. However you were still more or less opposite the centre doors when you came downstairs.

Victor wrote: »

A few drivers not doing their job is a driver problem. All the drivers not doing their job is a management problem.

And this was something that was never dealt with properly.

The main reason for the single door was to minimise the effect on the seating capacity of the new buses of having to create a wheelchair space on the bus. Anyone who has used the ex-Airlink AV Class buses that are currently usually to be seen on the 16/16a that do have centre doors will see the amount of space that is taken up.

Vic_08

Solair wrote: »

It's quite simple, CIE like to reinvent the wheel all the time and do things in the most awkward and non-standard way possible.

When you consider how long it has taken for smart-card based ticketing to roll out

As has been pointed out countless times on this forum it was the RPA, latterly the NTA who were responsible for the integrated ticketing scheme and the extreme delays in it's implementation.

Solair wrote: »

No other European bus operator that I have ever come across uses the same doors for entry and exit. Most of them insist that you enter via the front door and always exit via the middle or rear doors. They do this to speed up dwell times at bus stops.

I suppose you have never come across First Group, Stagecoach, Arriva, Govia, Transdev, Translink Metro, Lothian, National Express or any other significant bus operator in the British Isles then because outside of London there is no significant use of dual door buses.

Excepting London very few low floor double decker city buses have been built with more than one door. Many of the ex-London deckers that have been transferred or sold on to operators in other UK cities have been converted from dual to single door configuration.

It is completely inaccurate to say that Dublin Bus or CIE are unusual in the operation of single door buses of this kind, quite the opposite is true.

Solair

I give up!

To be quite honest, I don't care whether it's RPA or CIE. They're both QANGOs ultimately responsible to the Department of Transport. From an end user's perspective and a tax payer's perspective the whole thing is just stupid and infuriating.

It's grand sure we'll just go on with the awl nonsense and change nothing, despite the fact that the bus services in our urban areas are pretty dire and the one-door practice is absolutely not the norm in any urban area in continental Europe anyway.

As for looking at UK busses, in general I don't. I am comparing the Irish situation with the umpteen cities I've lived in / visited in continental Europe and it's WAY WAY out of step with all of them.

It seems to me we are not looking at best practice, rather we are looking at some awkward British practice and copying it 'just because'.

Cookie_Monster

Vic_08 wrote: »

It is completely inaccurate to say that Dublin Bus or CIE are unusual in the operation of single door buses of this kind, quite the opposite is true.

IS it though? So a few UK cities don't use double doors but what about most of Europe (and the rest of the world). Most DD pics that come up have 2, if not 3, doors...

CIE

Bazzer2 wrote: »

If you want centre doors, re-employ conductors

The first centre-door buses had conductors and all passengers were forced in and out the front door.

The point about conductors IMHO should relate to dwell times, anyhow. Even on buses that have multiple doors, having one-person operation will never, ever be as fast as having a conductor (whether you have a flat fare or not, frankly); even with single-entrance buses, the dwell times were very fast with conductors, and with a single-entrance bus, you still have more seats. Reliance on technology for the so-called "honour" system merely leads to fare evasion on top of overspending on infrastructure (the bus system is supposed to have the simplest out of public transport infrastructure), and if you have a blackout, how are you supposed to buy tickets anyhow, whether from the vending machine, a railway station booking office, or shops that are authorised vendors for bus tickets?

Mrs OBumble

Vic_08 wrote: »

I suppose you have never come across First Group, Stagecoach, Arriva, Govia, Transdev, Translink Metro, Lothian, National Express or any other significant bus operator in the British Isles then because outside of London there is no significant use of dual door buses.

I don't know about the UK, but Auckland is a city roughly the same size as Dublin, with similar demographics (if you swap north and south) and "skangers" (though they're called by different names).

Every city-route bus I've ever seen there has two sets of doors.


Do ye realise that many of us think that Irish buses only have one door because the Irish (or perhaps Irish bus drivers!) are too <<INSERT YOUR FAVOURITE ADJECTIVE>> to cope with more?

jaykayphd

I've been on buses in the states where you used pneumatic rear/middle doors to get off the bus. The doors were locked whilst the bus was in motion and unlocked when you got to a stop. You had to push the door yourself to get off and they closed automatically behind you.

LordSutch

Solair

That's your pretty standard urban bus in France :



Note the arrows on the rear doors asking you to continue to the front door to board.

I would also say that Cork, Limerick, Galway etc are the *only* cities I've ever been in in recent years that do not have smart-card or at least cardboard magstripe card based payment systems on busses.

If you consider that somewhere like say Pamplona in Spain has virtual purse cards called "monedero". You top them up at any newsagent, or in some cases at an ATM, and you can use them to pay on board any bus and for lots of other things too. They basically allowed OAPs to pay about 20 cent per journey vs normal fares for everyone else. It all worked very well. There was no dwell time and no complication! A very simple, off-the-shelf system used very effectively.

I still think that CIE companies have a tendency to try to do things in the most awkward way possible and to become bogged down in trying to reinvent the wheel over and over again.

Busses across the continent are pretty much standard products. Smart-card payment systems are also widely available from several companies and could probably be rolled out very cheaply. I mean, why didn't they look at doing something with Visa PayWave + the banks to coincide with their rollout of that technology?!

Victor

CIE wrote: »

The point about conductors IMHO should relate to dwell times, anyhow. Even on buses that have multiple doors, having one-person operation will never, ever be as fast as having a conductor (whether you have a flat fare or not, frankly); even with single-entrance buses, the dwell times were very fast with conductors, and with a single-entrance bus, you still have more seats. Reliance on technology for the so-called "honour" system merely leads to fare evasion on top of overspending on infrastructure (the bus system is supposed to have the simplest out of public transport infrastructure), and if you have a blackout, how are you supposed to buy tickets anyhow, whether from the vending machine, a railway station booking office, or shops that are authorised vendors for bus tickets?

I've only used one bus route in Germany and it was driver only operation with an passenger-operated ticket vending machine on-board the bus. Admittedly it was a semi-rural route.

---

lxflyer wrote: »

They were actually delivered in blue and cream livery Victor - you're showing your youthfulness now!

Not absolutely. As a young 'un, bus use wasn't particularly necessary all that often, so there may have been other bus models in use that I simply wasn't aware of. I do remember pulling the cord for the bell at the wrong stop at about age 6 and relieved that I didn't get given out to.

The main reason for the single door was to minimise the effect on the seating capacity of the new buses of having to create a wheelchair space on the bus. Anyone who has used the ex-Airlink AV Class buses that are currently usually to be seen on the 16/16a that do have centre doors will see the amount of space that is taken up.

Those also have extra luggage racks, so it doesn't help. They can often be seen on the 16, but no guarantee.

Conway635 wrote: »

The non-Vanhool ones (1-602) had the stairs in the opposite direction to more modern buses, such that you were facing forwards as you came down the stairs.

I have only ever used one of these buses, such was their non-existence in Cork and their rarity by the time I moved to Dublin.

The last of the single-door buses in the 1-218 batch was gone by mid 83, but the later dual door ones lingered many years, to the mid 1990s (earlier body) and 1996 (VanHool body). There was also the Bombardier "KD" double-deckers, all dual door, which were the first green buses in 1981 (the older buses were later painted from orange into green).

These didn't hit Cork until about 1985 or later.

So between all of the above, this makes up the "many types" you remember.

Oh, I thought there was actually more types in use in Dublin.

ardmacha

Veolia would be happy to do the work of removing the door panel.

Hotblack Desiato

You do remember that people were seriously hurt in that incident?

dfx-

markpb wrote: »

Emergency exit windows are for evacuation. Doors are to keep the service running at something akin to decent speed.

Has anyone ever used the emergency exit upstairs by choice (i.e. not being thrown out of a 77 by strangers ). I've always thought my backside would have to be smoking to jump out there with the engine below...

I was on RV560 tonight, centre doors used to great effect on a northbound 16 service. I think Summerhill's drivers are much more ready to use them with their RVs..

Hotblack Desiato

I was always under the impression the upstairs "EALÚ" was for use in a bus-tipping-over incident. Could be wrong...

Come to think of it, on a 2-door bus the rear-right exit was probably only of real use if the bus tipped onto its left side.

I was in a tan-coloured bus once where the right rear emergency door was open and hanging off by its straps, we proceeded to our destination

Cookie_Monster

ninja900 wrote: »

You do remember that people were seriously hurt in that incident?

what has that got to do with anything?

Hotblack Desiato

Taste.